Charging for SAR

[wuzafuzz]

Interesting article:  http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54909102-78/county-rescue-grand-search.html.csp

I can see both side of the debate but confess I am fond of those who don't charge. 

Either way, when I purchased a SPOT device I paid extra for the GEOS Member Rescue Benefit.  Even if a SAR team doesn't charge me, the chance of a related helicopter or long distance ambulance ride is enough to make the insurance worthwhile.  Hopefully I'll never need it.

It would be interesting to know how that rescue benefit would work with CAP or federal insurance if a participating CAP member had to be rescued.  It doesn't take much imagination to see a game of hot potato breaking out.

[Flying Pig]

Come to my county and see if it works

[wuzafuzz]

Come to my county and see if it works

Ha!  I'm all for a copter ride, but I'm not breaking a leg or getting snake bit to "earn" it.

I miss copter rides; used to ride in Kern County and Ventura County airships from time to time.  That was a blast.   

[jimmydeanno]

New Hampshire has a negligent hiker law that charges for the rescue in cases of negligence.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-09-23-rescuefee_N.htm

There are tons of people who go hiking in the White Mountains that think it's going to be a walk in the park.  They wear boat shoes, and their polo shirt, grab a 16oz mountain dew, and then expect to be rescued when they get to the top of the mountain and it's 70 degrees cooler than the base, with 120 mph winds. 

People should be responsible for their own negligence.  It's a bit different than having to pull someone off the mountain who was prepared and they ended up hurting themselves.

Take this for example: http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/10/third-time-was-anything-charming-%E2%80%93-spot-misuse-grand-canyon-national-park4790

Why wouldn't we expect them to pay for that?

[RiverAux]

Since most airplane crashes are due to pilot error should we charge for doing missing airplane searches?

Whether or not a search effort launch was justified is one of those things that is going to be in the eye of the beholder.  If they guy up on top of of Mt. Washington in a t-shirt is going to die without rescue then he needs to be rescued.  What if he had on a fleece jacket?  And then earmuffs?  At one point do we consider that the person took reasonable precautions and just had some bad luck?  Should the guy that has used map and compass for 20 years and gets lost get treated any differently than some dude who stumbled off the trail and got just as lost? 

If your house burns down because you dropped your cig in the bed the Fire Department puts it out for free just as they do if it got hit by lightening. 

So, if they're in trouble, they're in trouble, and they shouldn't be charged for getting assistance. 

Now, if someone gets a search started for something that in no way, shape, or form resembles anything like a real emergency, I'd be ok with charging them.  However, even that is going to be a subjective call and sometimes may not stand up to challenge. 

[tsrup]

If your house burns down because you dropped your cig in the bed the Fire Department puts it out for free just as they do if it got hit by lightening. 

Free isn't quite true.

http://rt.com/usa/news/home-pay-fire-bell-299/

[sarmed1]

Since most airplane crashes are due to pilot error should we charge for doing missing airplane searches?

Whether or not a search effort launch was justified is one of those things that is going to be in the eye of the beholder.  If they guy up on top of of Mt. Washington in a t-shirt is going to die without rescue then he needs to be rescued.  What if he had on a fleece jacket?  And then earmuffs?  At one point do we consider that the person took reasonable precautions and just had some bad luck?  Should the guy that has used map and compass for 20 years and gets lost get treated any differently than some dude who stumbled off the trail and got just as lost? 

If your house burns down because you dropped your cig in the bed the Fire Department puts it out for free just as they do if it got hit by lightening. 

So, if they're in trouble, they're in trouble, and they shouldn't be charged for getting assistance. 

Now, if someone gets a search started for something that in no way, shape, or form resembles anything like a real emergency, I'd be ok with charging them.  However, even that is going to be a subjective call and sometimes may not stand up to challenge.

In my area that debate has been raised for fire and rescue services; most departments bill your homeowner insurance, for Hazmat/technical services the companies are usually bonded/insured and are billed accordingly.  Private homeowners and business are billed for false alarms after something like 3 per month.

one thing the ambulance services learned and practice is that everyone must be billed for service regardless of need (real emergency or BS..) how hard you pursue that bill is another issue entirely.

mk

[RiverAux]

There are exceptions for everything, but I feel comfortable saying that most fire departments are not going to send you a bill for putting out a fire at your house. 

[tsrup]

There are exceptions for everything, but I feel comfortable saying that most fire departments are not going to send you a bill for putting out a fire at your house.

Maybe they should?

[Eclipse]

Since most airplane crashes are due to pilot error should we charge for doing missing airplane searches?

I don't know if we should, but it happens all the time - there was a big dust up after Fossett because some agencies
tried to bill through to his estate.

If your house burns down because you dropped your cig in the bed the Fire Department puts it out for free just as they do if it got hit by lightening.

It's getting more and more common as municipalities are strapped for cash.  The below is a couple of years old but was a handy illustration.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fire-department-bills-basic-services-horrify-residents-insurance/story?id=9736696#.UG3yveSH3Pw

A casual Google search shows a lot more info on this more recently, here's a how-to guide on getting started:
http://www.themunicipal.com/2012/09/incident-response-cost-recovery-how-to-get-started/

[sardak]

Since most airplane crashes are due to pilot error should we charge for doing missing airplane searches?

I don't know if we should, but it happens all the time - there was a big dust up after Fossett because some agencies tried to bill through to his estate.

From the National SAR Plan of the US (created by the National SAR Committee, made up of the federal agencies responsible for SAR, including DoD, so by extension USAF and AFRCC):
   54. Participants agree that unless required for by law, civil SAR services provided to persons in danger or distress will be without subsequent cost-recovery from the person(s) assisted. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/manuals/Natl_SAR_Plan(2007).pdf
So no charge on an AFAM.

As for the Fossett search, it was the State of Nevada that discussed charging Fossett's estate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Fossett#Search_and_rescue_costs

The National Association for SAR (NASAR), the Mountain Rescue Association (MRA) and Colorado SAR Board (CSRB) all have position statements and/or policies opposing charging for SAR.
http://www.nasar.org/files/board_of_directors/positionpaper/No_Bill_for_SAR_Position_Statement_-_NASAR_4-2009.pdf

http://mra.org/images/stories/members/Policiesupdated_121511.pdf  See policy 901.

http://www.mra.org/images/stories/docs/chargingforrescue.pdf

http://www.coloradosarboard.org/ChargingForSAR.shtml

And a couple of other positions opposed to charging for SAR.
http://www.sarscene.ca/SARSCENE_2010/PowerPoint%20presentations/M-0900%20Opening%20Plenary/CHARGING%20FOR%20SEARCH%20AND%20RESCUE.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/NoChargeforRescue

When SAR missions are a result of laws being broken, or laws are broken by the subject(s) during the mission, the subject(s) may face fines, penalties or restitution payments, but those don't constitute "charging for SAR." And in most places, the cost of the ride to the hospital provided by a medical transport agency, after the find/rescue, is not considered a SAR charge.

Mike