What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

[Flying Pig]

I actually think the uniform looks better without stripes or officer rank.   Just like LE or Fire. 

Most cops and firefighters wear rank (with the exception of small volunteer fire departments that may barely have uniforms at all much less money for rank insignia).

Uhhhhh..... yeah.  If you HAVE rank, yes, you wear it.  But your rank corresponds with your position/authority.  CAP rank does not work that way.   ICS system isn't what we are talking about.   And rarely will you have a lower rank person in a position of command in the ICS piston for very long.  Im sure people will chime in with "not where I work"

Your statement was specifically about uniform appearance only and that was the way I responded.  If you wanted to talk about CAP rank structure and its meaning, you should have said so.

My mistake.. I figured being on CAPTalk and saying "just like LE and Fire" would have been the giveaway that I was referring to CAP. But OK.

[Flying Pig]

To address the LE generals....

LE agencies have absolutely NO correlation from one agency to the next.  Whatever symbol your agency chooses has nothing to do with any other agency, nor does someone from another agency out rank you.  I could be a level 1 road deputy, and a Capt in another dept may as well just be another dude.  You get into state police agencies and they can go on and have Master Sgts, First Sgts, etc.  Some state police depts. do have tracks that involve stripes vs bars.  But its not enlisted vs officer.

[Eclipse]

To address the LE generals....

LE agencies have absolutely NO correlation from one agency to the next.  Whatever symbol your agency chooses has nothing to do with any other agency, nor does someone from another agency out rank you.  I could be a level 1 road deputy, and a Capt in another dept may as well just be another dude.  You get into state police agencies and they can go on and have Master Sgts, First Sgts, etc.  Some state police depts. do have tracks that involve stripes vs bars.  But its not enlisted vs officer.

Acknowledge, and the point I was trying to make about the way CAP grade should be viewed as well - it's "CAP Grade", has no correlation to the military or
other agencies, and should never be viewed as such or compared.

CAP would be much better off as a whole, not to mention in its dealing with other organizations if it overtly adopted that stance, instead of trying to drive
on both sides of the street at the same time.

[TheSkyHornet]

To address the LE generals....

LE agencies have absolutely NO correlation from one agency to the next.  Whatever symbol your agency chooses has nothing to do with any other agency, nor does someone from another agency out rank you.  I could be a level 1 road deputy, and a Capt in another dept may as well just be another dude.  You get into state police agencies and they can go on and have Master Sgts, First Sgts, etc.  Some state police depts. do have tracks that involve stripes vs bars.  But its not enlisted vs officer.

Acknowledge, and the point I was trying to make about the way CAP grade should be viewed as well - it's "CAP Grade", has no correlation to the military or
other agencies, and should never be viewed as such or compared.

CAP would be much better off as a whole, not to mention in its dealing with other organizations if it overtly adopted that stance, instead of trying to drive
on both sides of the street at the same time.

For a military affiliate organization, CAP sure tries to play both sides of that coin. "We're military, but we're civilian. We aren't EMS, but we're search and rescue. We have a chain of command, but we don't install superiors based on grade. We are a volunteer force, but we don't come cheap." It works in some instances, and founders in others.

It's a fantastic organization. Sure, I have my grievances. But there's always room for improvement. I love what I do in CAP, despite how much I gripe. As someone who's CAP life revolves mostly around cadets, it's easy for me to push them to have respect for what they do in support of the Air Force, even just as a cadet program. I wish some seniors took it more seriously.

[RiverAux]

I actually think the uniform looks better without stripes or officer rank.   Just like LE or Fire. 

Most cops and firefighters wear rank (with the exception of small volunteer fire departments that may barely have uniforms at all much less money for rank insignia).

Uhhhhh..... yeah.  If you HAVE rank, yes, you wear it.  But your rank corresponds with your position/authority.  CAP rank does not work that way.   ICS system isn't what we are talking about.   And rarely will you have a lower rank person in a position of command in the ICS piston for very long.  Im sure people will chime in with "not where I work"

Your statement was specifically about uniform appearance only and that was the way I responded.  If you wanted to talk about CAP rank structure and its meaning, you should have said so.

My mistake.. I figured being on CAPTalk and saying "just like LE and Fire" would have been the giveaway that I was referring to CAP. But OK.

Jeesh -- did you read what you wrote at all?  You said that LE and fire do not wear rank.  I responded to that patently incorrect statement. 

But, to respond to your additional comments -- yes, LE and Fire do have rank systems that match their day-to-day administrative structures but it is  possible that should they have to respond to a large scale incident where ICS is utilized that they would end up in the same sort of situation as CAP and end up having functional leaders in positions over folks that "administratively" out-rank them.  In regards to fire, in particular this is much more likely as they generally have a fairly flat command structure.

As I've pointed out many times over the years, CAP has the option of basically three different ways of looking at officer grade:
1)  Grade represents your previous achievements in the PD program  (current situation)
2) Grade is tied to your administrative position in the organization
3) Grade is tied to your operational qualifications and duties

The problem with 2 and 3 is that we would have to make all grade temporary to the time you hold that position or qualification or eventually end up in situations where people that formerly held a higher position but no longer do so are reporting to someone of a lower grade (i.e, the former IC that now is only a mission pilot but has a grade associated with being an IC).

And to bring it back around to topic -- it appears that the with the new NCO "system", we're favoring tying grade to administrative position. 

[dwr2829]

Greetings all, been in the back of the room listening in...
I'm a prior cadet from back in the 70-80's along with recently as a retired Chief with just about 30 years in the Air Force. I now find myself looking at Civil Air Patrol filling that void, about being a part of something larger then yourself. I had no idea that CAP was bringing back the Enlisted Force for Senior Members. I know where l'm going to hang my hat, as a Chief in the most amazing volunteer organization in the world. "Hap...we're home..."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Storm Chaser]

To address the LE generals....

LE agencies have absolutely NO correlation from one agency to the next.  Whatever symbol your agency chooses has nothing to do with any other agency, nor does someone from another agency out rank you.  I could be a level 1 road deputy, and a Capt in another dept may as well just be another dude.  You get into state police agencies and they can go on and have Master Sgts, First Sgts, etc.  Some state police depts. do have tracks that involve stripes vs bars.  But its not enlisted vs officer.

Acknowledge, and the point I was trying to make about the way CAP grade should be viewed as well - it's "CAP Grade", has no correlation to the military or
other agencies, and should never be viewed as such or compared.

CAP would be much better off as a whole, not to mention in its dealing with other organizations if it overtly adopted that stance, instead of trying to drive
on both sides of the street at the same time.

You know very well your point doesn't hold. We wear uniforms that look very much like the Air Force's. We use duty titles and organizational structures that mimic the Air Force to an extent. Our grade insignias and titles are the same as the military for the most part (minus flight officers grades). Yet we use them differently. In other U.S. organizations (military, LE, etc.), four stars outranks a bar every time, but not necessarily in CAP where grade confers no authority and denotes no responsibility.

There are also expectations that people with certain grades hold certain positions and the higher the grade, the more responsibility and possibly authority a person has. But not in CAP where a 1st Lt can be squadron commander of a squadron full of Lt Cols. While this is the way it's always been (at least since I can remember), it confuses a lot of people, even in the military, looking from the outside.

My question is, if CAP grades don't denote authority or responsibility, why are many (most?) members so attached to it? Is it because of the perception of the grade/rank? Grade, even in CAP, should denote more than PD progression. In fact, PD level doesn't automatically confer a CAP grade, even though some members think it does or should.

[RiverAux]

My question is, if CAP grades don't denote authority or responsibility, why are many (most?) members so attached to it? Is it because of the perception of the grade/rank?

Well, because they have done something to earn it they feel that they deserve to have it.

yep, this includes more people than I would like who earned their CAP grade by doing something outside of CAP.

And despite the protestations of some here, there is absolutely no widespread movement in CAP by members who want to get rid of it.  Something that has worked for 75 years can definetely be put in the "not broke, don't need to fix" category. 

From a purely philosophical standpoint I agree that the system doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I have my own pet proposal for a philosophically pleasing way of addressing it, but no one should be fooled that CAP members would like to see the system change in any meaningful way

[Storm Chaser]

My question is, if CAP grades don't denote authority or responsibility, why are many (most?) members so attached to it? Is it because of the perception of the grade/rank?

Well, because they have done something to earn it they feel that they deserve to have it.

yep, this includes more people than I would like who earned their CAP grade by doing something outside of CAP.

And despite the protestations of some here, there is absolutely no widespread movement in CAP by members who want to get rid of it.  Something that has worked for 75 years can definetely be put in the "not broke, don't need to fix" category. 

From a purely philosophical standpoint I agree that the system doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I have my own pet proposal for a philosophically pleasing way of addressing it, but no one should be fooled that CAP members would like to see the system change in any meaningful way

I never said members wanted to get rid of grades; I know they don't. But I find it interesting how members feel they earned the grade, but when promotion requirements get a little tougher, everyone complains about it. I've had to earn my grades both in the military and in CAP and I know that it's much easier in CAP than the Air Force. Some CAP members want to wear uniforms and insignias that resemble the military, but don't want to be held to the same standards. And worst, some members what to be promoted, but are not willing to assume greater responsibility within the organization. This is in no way a criticism to our hard working volunteers. I know how much they do because I'm one of them. But the fact remains many of our members put more emphasis on the uniform and grade than our mission. I see it all the time and not just here in CAP Talk; it's just slightly worst here.

I believe in this organization and it's mission. And while I wear my uniform with pride, I would continue to be part of this organization even if the AF-style uniform or military-style grades were eliminated. How many members would stay if that was the case? At the end of the day, none of it really matters that much. We're not commissioned officers or noncommissioned officers in CAP; we just have grade insignias and titles that are similar to those used by the Air Force. We're all civilian volunteers and should be proud of that!

[DoubleSecret]

We're not commissioned officers or noncommissioned officers in CAP; we just have grade insignias and titles that are similar to those used by the Air Force.

Noncommissioned officers:  SSgt through CMSgt
Flight officers:  FO through SFO
Uncommissioned officers:  2d Lt through Maj Gen
Uncommissioned nonofficers:  Everybody else?

[RiverAux]

Some CAP members want to wear uniforms and insignias that resemble the military, but don't want to be held to the same standards.

And there is no reason we should be since it is CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform and grade.  Once we start having the same authority and privileges as the military, then we should be held to the same standards.  Since we don't (and never will), it is entirely appropriate for our standards to be lower.  That being the logical conclusion, fighting over just how "tough" our standards need to be makes little sense. 

There is no way that CAP can ever have standards high enough that someone couldn't make the same argument that you are.  If the AF requires 18 weeks of training for grade X and CAP only requires 17 weeks, then someone is just as likely to complain that we're just a bunch of posers. 

I barely recall the last time I wore an AF-style uniform that had any mention of the Air Force on it.  My BDUs say Civil Air Patrol.  My flight suit says Civil Air Patrol.  The only mention of the AF on any of my uniforms is the tiny type under my name when I wear the service dress uniform. 

[Flying Pig]

It really boils down to one thing.  Like a similar decision made for the military lately.... "Does this decision make the military more lethal?"

This issue with CAP.... "Does this NCO program make CAP more effective?"  I dont think so.  Ill use the old line we like to toss out here, "Its a solution looking for a problem."

[Spaceman3750]

If we put this much effort into solving actual problems, CAP would be a much stronger organization than it is today...

But instead we waste the effort on this, or uniforms. No wonder people complain about how much work CAP is. All of the people with the dedication and drive to actually get things done are arguing on CAPTalk about world-ending problems that nobody outside of this little circle even cares about - inside or out of the organization.

I now return you to your previously-scheduled nonsense.

(Re-posted from another thread because frankly I got the threads confused because we're talking about the same thing in 4 places)

[RiverAux]

All of the people with the dedication and drive to actually get things done are arguing on CAPTalk about world-ending problems that nobody outside of this little circle even cares about - inside or out of the organization.

I'm not sure that we've ever solved any problems on CAPTalk and I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of CAP members working hard out there that have never been to this site...

[TheSkyHornet]

And there is no reason we should be since it is CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform and grade.  Once we start having the same authority and privileges as the military, then we should be held to the same standards.  Since we don't (and never will), it is entirely appropriate for our standards to be lower.  That being the logical conclusion, fighting over just how "tough" our standards need to be makes little sense. 

I completely disagree. We should be holding our "officers" to the standards of any military officer, or that of any corporate officer.

To many CAP members, it's a hobby--play time. That's unacceptable to me. This organization has a purpose--a job to do. Its members should respect that role and hold themselves to be professional in everything they do.

I'm not sure how things play out for the senior side of the house, but I expect that when my cadets show up wearing their uniform, they maintain a strong level of dignity and respect for that uniform and their duties in the program. I expect nothing less. I refuse to tell anyone, whether it's a 14-year-old or a 40-year-old "I'm not holding you to a high standard because you aren't military." That's completely counter-productive.

[kwe1009]

And there is no reason we should be since it is CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform and grade.  Once we start having the same authority and privileges as the military, then we should be held to the same standards.  Since we don't (and never will), it is entirely appropriate for our standards to be lower.  That being the logical conclusion, fighting over just how "tough" our standards need to be makes little sense. 

I completely disagree. We should be holding our "officers" to the standards of any military officer, or that of any corporate officer.

To many CAP members, it's a hobby--play time. That's unacceptable to me. This organization has a purpose--a job to do. Its members should respect that role and hold themselves to be professional in everything they do.

I'm not sure how things play out for the senior side of the house, but I expect that when my cadets show up wearing their uniform, they maintain a strong level of dignity and respect for that uniform and their duties in the program. I expect nothing less. I refuse to tell anyone, whether it's a 14-year-old or a 40-year-old "I'm not holding you to a high standard because you aren't military." That's completely counter-productive.

I think most on here look at the "higher standard" in relation to education and training.  In that regard, CAP officers could held to the same standard as military officers but is that in the best interest of CAP?  I would say that it is not as there are a good number of pilots and SAR personnel who don't have a degree and would then not be eligible to be a CAP officer. 

It may hurt the feelings of many people but frankly CAP grade really doesn't matter nor does it convey that the individual is a leader or knowledgeable.  There are many 1st Lt's that have more to offer CAP than a lot of Lt Col's who have just been "present" long enough to get promoted.  Now that promotions are a little more difficult that should slowly start to change.

I definitely agree with your statements about respect for the uniform.  Age or grade doesn't matter.  Everyone should wear the uniform properly.

[THRAWN]

And there is no reason we should be since it is CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform and grade.  Once we start having the same authority and privileges as the military, then we should be held to the same standards.  Since we don't (and never will), it is entirely appropriate for our standards to be lower.  That being the logical conclusion, fighting over just how "tough" our standards need to be makes little sense. 

I completely disagree. We should be holding our "officers" to the standards of any military officer, or that of any corporate officer.

To many CAP members, it's a hobby--play time. That's unacceptable to me. This organization has a purpose--a job to do. Its members should respect that role and hold themselves to be professional in everything they do.

I'm not sure how things play out for the senior side of the house, but I expect that when my cadets show up wearing their uniform, they maintain a strong level of dignity and respect for that uniform and their duties in the program. I expect nothing less. I refuse to tell anyone, whether it's a 14-year-old or a 40-year-old "I'm not holding you to a high standard because you aren't military." That's completely counter-productive.

If we did that, there are a number of people who would not be able to serve at all. You know, medical reasons and all, right?

Yes, to many this is "play time". They come, do their duty, and go home. Why? Because they like it, they're good at it, and it makes them feel alive. Don't question the motivation of your members when there is motivation. Not everyone does it for mom and apple pie.

[FW]

And there is no reason we should be since it is CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform and grade.  Once we start having the same authority and privileges as the military, then we should be held to the same standards.  Since we don't (and never will), it is entirely appropriate for our standards to be lower.  That being the logical conclusion, fighting over just how "tough" our standards need to be makes little sense. 

I completely disagree. We should be holding our "officers" to the standards of any military officer, or that of any corporate officer.

To many CAP members, it's a hobby--play time. That's unacceptable to me. This organization has a purpose--a job to do. Its members should respect that role and hold themselves to be professional in everything they do.

Yes, we are Civil Air Patrol.  We do have standards, act professional in all we do, and live up to our "Core Values".  Our standards have roots in the military, however our culture derives from more.  Being an "officer" or "NCO"  really isn't the point; and that is the whole reason for this discussion.   As Thrawn said; "Don't question the motivation of your members" when they are motivated... Be satisfied they "Come And Play".

[lordmonar]

I think most on here look at the "higher standard" in relation to education and training.  In that regard, CAP officers could held to the same standard as military officers but is that in the best interest of CAP?  I would say that it is not as there are a good number of pilots and SAR personnel who don't have a degree and would then not be eligible to be a CAP officer.

  they could fly as enlisted. 

[Flying Pig]

Well that's not fair.  Only officers should be able to be pilots.... because we are smarter.