"...up to Lt. Col....." Insulting and discriminatory

Started by oldrugged, April 13, 2007, 05:55:07 PM

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oldrugged

BOY!!  Had no idea that those of us who came into the CAP at a military grade didn't earn the grade!  Wow....and mine was in the USAF, too.  Incidentally, I was picked up as 0-5 in the Navy a year early, and was brought into the USAF as an 0-5.  So much for one service not honoring the grades from previous services.  Much of the banter here is irrelavent to the original topic.  As for the 'eagles' in the CAP 'knowing all,' so they deserve the eagles, I would suggest that, from the ones I've talked with have to refer to someone else to get me the answers.  If it isn't a direct question regarding uniforms or flying, they don't know, especially if it has to do with anything in the medical end of the CAP.  Maybe that's because there really isn't a medical end of the CAP.

Rangersigo

Quote from: RiverAux on April 15, 2007, 10:14:11 PM
Sorry, I've seen no evidence that former military officers of any grade are any better at fixing the problems in CAP than non-prior service and in some cases make things worse.  This isn't unique to former military as civilians that come in expecting a gung ho military organization are just as likely to mess things up. 

I don't see any great advantage in letting in a few Col. and General grade people ikeep their rank as a way to improve the organization overall.  Would it kill the organization?  Probably not, but it would cause some issues.  We already have enough problems with prior service people thinking their CAP rank is more real than that earned by non-prior service.  No need to make it worse. 


Wow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college.  I have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.  It is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>

jimmydeanno

Quote from: oldrugged on April 16, 2007, 05:38:20 PM
BOY!!  Had no idea that those of us who came into the CAP at a military grade didn't earn the grade!  Wow....and mine was in the USAF, too.

Congratulations, you were promoted to O-6 in the Air Force.  We can all respect that.  But you seem to  be trying to emphasize that here, as though it alone will bring legitimacy to your argument.

QuoteIncidentally, I was picked up as 0-5 in the Navy a year early, and was brought into the USAF as an 0-5.  So much for one service not honoring the grades from previous services.

That's not what was said.  It was said that it is not always the case.  In fact one poster went to great lengths to explain it.

QuoteMuch of the banter here is irrelavent to the original topic.

Not true.  Your original topic was simply stating that you think CAP should have a consistent policy regarding prior/current military members promotions.

They do, as been pointed out.  All members of the military can be appointed to their prior service or current service grade, up to Lt Col.  CAP Grade of Col or Higher is reserved for corporate officers.  You are basically feeling "left out," "deligitimized," or rather "insulted," because your grade isn't in the "approved" grades.  If you retired as a Captain, I doubt we'd be hearing this.

QuoteAs for the 'eagles' in the CAP 'knowing all,' so they deserve the eagles, I would suggest that, from the ones I've talked with have to refer to someone else to get me the answers.

And just like in the military, the commander doesn't know all the details of every single persons job.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as an O-6 you were probably in charge of something.  Did you know who was working on a specific shift, or did you just concern yourself with that the schedule was filled?  If you couldn't answer someones question, didn't you send them to someone who could?  It sounds like you are upset because the Wing Commander sent you to talk to someone who could answer your questions?

No one here is trying to "deligitimize" your former grade.  No one said you didn't earn it.  What has been said is that such promotions aren't really earned in regards to CAP.  You didn't check off all the boxes that non-priors did.

Quote
Wow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college. 

Many CAP members are also graduates of Squadron Officer School, ACSC and AWC.

What people are contesting is that the PME doesn't have any CAP specific information included in them.  One would assume that someone wearing CAP Lt Col would have an inkling about CAP.  What happens in this case?  "Oh you'll have to go ask that 2d Lt, because I don't know."  Point brought up about the "eagles" above.

QuoteI have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.

Hmmm...favoritism towards people who know about CAP from CAP members. Right, people that have gone through the CAP program and have more than a few months experience think that people should have a knowledge about CAP before being promoted. 

Last I checked, even at your job, someone who knows more about how to do your job will get promoted over you.  Is that nepotism? No, nepotism is promoting someone for the plain and simple they are related to you.  Ever hear of the boss that hires his nephew over the guy with the actual experience? Cryonism? Nah, I don't think so, they aren't wanting to promote someone solely because they are friends.  Maybe a more suitable word can be found.

Quote
It is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>

What get's tiring is everyone trying to make CAP into the Air Force.  If we wanted to be in the Air Force, we'd join.  What we want to do is help our communities as volunteers.

What makes an O-6 any better than a private sector CEO, or a fortune 500 company CFO?  How about a police commissioner?  Fire Cheif? College Dean?  Most have the same, if not more responsibility than said O-6, they don't get to be promoted to Lt Col?  We don't tell them they didn't "earn" their grade, and they are more than happy to work through the program.  Where do you draw the line?

If anything, people here are voting in favor of not having "special appointment" promotions(which would be consistent, and pertains to your original post).  If you look at the requirments for a CAP Lt Col  for everyone else, it sets the expectation that the person has CAP experience.  i.e. specialty track ratings, CAP specific courses, time in a staff position, teaching other people, etc.

So all of the posts here have been an opinion on which way to go if any.  Most agreed with one of your original posts saying start everyone at "O-1."
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

DNall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 16, 2007, 06:33:08 PM
No one here is trying to "deligitimize" your former grade.  No one said you didn't earn it.  What has been said is that such promotions aren't really earned in regards to CAP.  You didn't check off all the boxes that non-priors did.
Do you understand that view is insulting? The fact is they checked off more valuable & difficult boxes over a period many times longer than it took you to stand around with your name next to a position on a roster & no accountability that you do anything.

Plus, if you'll check that equiv chart you'll see their military courses count for everything they'd have to do in CAP. The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

Quote
QuoteWow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college. 
Many CAP members are also graduates of Squadron Officer School, ACSC and AWC.

What people are contesting is that the PME doesn't have any CAP specific information included in them.  One would assume that someone wearing CAP Lt Col would have an inkling about CAP.  What happens in this case?  "Oh you'll have to go ask that 2d Lt, because I don't know."  Point brought up about the "eagles" above.
That is eaxctly reading from the same textbook & not experienceing the real training. And by the way the information in every PME I've ever taken is EXTREMELY applicable to CAP. Granted there will be tiny places that are not, and you should take those as better understanding of your boss. However, when you read in AWC about joint operations, you should be thinking ICS. When you read in ACSC about strategic resource mgmt, you should be thinking about CAP resources, when you read about core values & interpersonal communications in SOS, you should be thinking about Sq Mgmt. It doens't take a whole lot of imagination to understand exactly how these things apply. And by the way, they are not technical courses about how to manage CAP, neither are tehy technical courses about how to be a better Security Forces offficer or space missle officer. They are courses about generalized officership, and that should apply 99.995% of the time to what you are supposed to be doing in CAP. If it doesn't, then the CAP around you is wrong and part of why you take the course is to learn how to make it right.

Quote
QuoteI have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.

Hmmm...favoritism towards people who know about CAP from CAP members. Right, people that have gone through the CAP program and have more than a few months experience think that people should have a knowledge about CAP before being promoted. 

Last I checked, even at your job, someone who knows more about how to do your job will get promoted over you.  Is that nepotism? No, nepotism is promoting someone for the plain and simple they are related to you.  Ever hear of the boss that hires his nephew over the guy with the actual experience? Cryonism? Nah, I don't think so, they aren't wanting to promote someone solely because they are friends.  Maybe a more suitable word can be found.
NO no, that's not what he said. He said that behavior was rampant in CAP toward everyone, prior-service or not & regardless of CAP experience, and implied that prior-serivce officer are not as likly to be guitly of this, which maybe yes & maybe now. Either way it's a very serious breakdown in professionalism & core values best addressed thru application of military leadership.


QuoteIt is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>
What get's tiring is everyone trying to make CAP into the Air Force.  If we wanted to be in the Air Force, we'd join.  What we want to do is help our communities as volunteers.

What makes an O-6 any better than a private sector CEO, or a fortune 500 company CFO?  How about a police commissioner?  Fire Cheif? College Dean?  Most have the same, if not more responsibility than said O-6, they don't get to be promoted to Lt Col?  We don't tell them they didn't "earn" their grade, and they are more than happy to work through the program.  Where do you draw the line?

If anything, people here are voting in favor of not having "special appointment" promotions(which would be consistent, and pertains to your original post).  If you look at the requirments for a CAP Lt Col  for everyone else, it sets the expectation that the person has CAP experience.  i.e. specialty track ratings, CAP specific courses, time in a staff position, teaching other people, etc.

So all of the posts here have been an opinion on which way to go if any.  Most agreed with one of your original posts saying start everyone at "O-1."[/quote]
You did join the Air Force, you joine d the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in. You knew there were uniforms, grade, saluting, and that you'd be volunteering to be part of a paramilitary system with which you'd be required to comply with. There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

And would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

Do other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

Certainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Just for perspective, I came up the CAP side first & my CAP grade/experience is much higher than my military grade, but I've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leavves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.


Major Carrales

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Psicorp

First, I see no problem with granting military grade appointments up to full Colonel.  I can understand why we don't, it's our policy, plain and simple.  It isn't demeaning, insulting, or degrading (well...okay, it kinda is the latter, technically).

As far as it being discriminatory, I think you should ask the person who joins as Enlisted grade.   I realize the policies on the Enlisted side of the house are going to be changing (about darn time too), but can you imagine the outcry if it worked the same way for military Officer appointments?
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

dwb

I'm fine with the policy as is.  Col -> Maj Gen have special meaning in the CAP world, and more importantly, CAP rank has only its shape and color in common with USAF rank.

Because CAP is a military auxiliary, there is a strong force in our CAP culture to want to somehow equate CAP rank with USAF rank. Obviously, it's not going to be an exact match, but the "rank commensurate with responsibility" thing comes from that.

That said, CAP officer grade is its own thing. The senior member professional development program is what it is, and progression in CAP rank means something different than progression in military rank.

While the desire is strong to align ourselves with our military brethren, we're not military, and we shouldn't pretend that CAP officer rank has some sort of equivalent outside of the CAP officer world. It doesn't, and, some would say, it shouldn't.

Good on you, Colonel, for making O-6.  But that doesn't mean there ought to be a one-to-one mapping of military grade to CAP grade, especially when CAP has assigned a specific meaning to people holding the grades of Col, Brig Gen, and Maj Gen.

You can't be a CAP Colonel not because we don't want to respect your accomplishments, but rather, because the structure of the organization doesn't accommodate it.

Nitpickers note: yes, I know, I used grade/rank interchangeably.  Don't hate me for it.

jimmydeanno

#67
Quote from: DNall on April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PM
Do you understand that view is insulting? The fact is they checked off more valuable & difficult boxes over a period many times longer than it took you to stand around with your name next to a position on a roster & no accountability that you do anything.

See, you are already saying that someone with military experience is more valuable to the organization than someone who doesn't.  Not always the case.  You are also confusing the difference between a poorly managed squadron and one that isn't.  In one that isn't, staff members take their roles seriously and have accountability.

Quote
Plus, if you'll check that equiv chart you'll see their military courses count for everything they'd have to do in CAP. The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

Except SLS and CLC, which teaches about CAP specifically.  When they get to the upper levels, the PME kicks in, because as you state below the management theories etc, apply broadly.

I'm glad to know that you think that running a squadron/group/wing is not an accomplishment of any kind, and those in those positions are just names on a list.

QuoteThat is exactly reading from the same textbook & not experienceing the real training. And by the way the information in every PME I've ever taken is EXTREMELY applicable to CAP. Granted there will be tiny places that are not, and you should take those as better understanding of your boss. However, when you read in AWC about joint operations, you should be thinking ICS. When you read in ACSC about strategic resource mgmt, you should be thinking about CAP resources, when you read about core values & interpersonal communications in SOS, you should be thinking about Sq Mgmt. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to understand exactly how these things apply. And by the way, they are not technical courses about how to manage CAP, neither are they technical courses about how to be a better Security Forces offficer or space missle officer. They are courses about generalized officership, and that should apply 99.995% of the time to what you are supposed to be doing in CAP. If it doesn't, then the CAP around you is wrong and part of why you take the course is to learn how to make it right.

Correct.  Again, no one is doubting their abilities, or what they've earned or 'checked off.'  I would be glad to have a handful of experience military personnel in my squadron. 

QuoteNO no, that's not what he said. He said that behavior was rampant in CAP toward everyone, prior-service or not & regardless of CAP experience, and implied that prior-serivce officer are not as likly to be guitly of this, which maybe yes & maybe now. Either way it's a very serious breakdown in professionalism & core values best addressed thru application of military leadership.

Please clarify...he said nepotism and cryonism...

QuoteYou did join the Air Force, you joined the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in.

I joined Civil Air Patrol, a non-profit volunteer organization chartered by congress, that happens to perform missions for the USAF, and during the times it does hold the title of USAF Auxiliary.

QuoteThere are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

So if CAP isn't for helping the community, what is it about?  What other organizations would you recommend?  Boy, I thought in these past 10 years I was helping my community...all the local cadets, all the local ES missions, all the local disaster relief, all the local volunteering at various community events...

QuoteAnd would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

I was going to join the military, however, they don't like to take you if you have a steel rod in your spine.  So yes, I was/am good enough in aptitude and intelligence, and to this day I can do better on a PT exam than a lot of military members.

QuoteDo other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

But if management skills and leadership skills are so easily transferred over to CAP then the customs and courtesies stuff should be a cinch for them to pick up.  Our 'military' system only vaguely resembles the military.

QuoteCertainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Sometimes I wonder why my 'community service club' is trying to become the AD Air Force.  There is a reason that this organization is comprised of volunteers.  Because those volunteers want to improve their nation as volunteers, not enlisted members of the military.

QuoteI've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leaves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.

Again, this all depends on your experience in CAP.  I have had Active Duty Officers tell me that the 'CAP PME' courses I have directed have been the most professional thing they've experienced in their time in the military.  It all depends on who is doing the job.

I have been to some awful CAP training, and I will be the first to admit that a lot of CAP members do not have the aptitude to do what their 'grade' recommends.  So, I agree with the orgininal poster that something should be done about the way 'grade' is earned in CAP, I just think that it should be positional or start everyone at the beginning.

;)

EDIT 1: Change is to isn't first paragraph.
EDIT 2: Put in the edits :)
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

dwb

Quote from: DNall on April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PMYou as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

Do you understand that this view is insulting?  Yes, CAP has its trouble children, but the vast majority of CAP field grade officers I've seen have been hard-working, dedicated, professional volunteers that have donated their time, talent, and sweat to the organization.

They earned their grade based on years of meritorious service in staff and command positions, at professional development activities, and some through the long, thankless, unpaid hours of emergency services.

How can you say merit never enters the picture?  So you've met come CAP officers that didn't impress you... well let me say, I've met some military folks I'm not impressed with.  There, now we've made our generalizations and can dispense with such things.

Quote from: DNall on April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PMThere are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

So what is CAP about, oh wise CAP expert?  I'm pretty sure CAP was founded so citizens, civilians, could help their country and their community.

Rangersigo

I think we are getting off track here.  I would argue that this is not just an issue with advancement or promotion based on military service.  I have seen a SM with no military service go to being a Wing CC in 5 years.  Did he really do all the jobs that need to be done to reach that level in 5 short years in CAP? Maybe.  Did he bring in the fact that he is well accomplished on the commercial side and has led organizations operationally, you bet.  Was he advanced quick because of this - absolutely.  Do I have a problem with it - not in the least.

I can tell you from personal experience that I am more than likely on my way out of CAP.  Why, because of a lack of standards, professionalism, and yes nepotism, cronyism and self promotion.  Please no definitions - I know exactly what each mean and am using them VERY correctly.

I never expected CAP to be like the military - I simply wanted to continue to serve as I left the Active Army due to a combat related injury - and if you did not experience something similar - hold your tong on this as you are not qualified in any small way to comment.

I joined to fulfill a side of me that was lost because of this and to provide an example to my sons who will not remember when dad got up in the morning and came back a year later.  And why I did it. 

What I experienced was an organization that was not concerned about mission, men (women), and then themselves, but have it backward in every way.  My point was that this is a simple concept that most that have served in the military learn early on, usually from a CSM that bumps them on the head when he says it.

As far as former military members being able to wear the grade when the join - absolutely!!  They earned it just like the badges and unfortunately the scars.  If a solely CAP member can't come to grips with that - and my case they could not.  That is where the lack of service in a uniformed service shines bright.  For me, I was advanced to CAPT based on my years of service, and if you think for a minute that my qualifications are less than a SM who came into CAP cold, you are right!  But how long do you think that will take to be reversed?

Again - a lot of people serve - in CAP, Active Military, wherever, if they out rank me they get a salute and the courtesy due them.  If they do not, I give them everything that I have learned and expereinced.

dwb

Rangersigo,

I don't know how long you have been in CAP.  I'm coming up on 15 years myself, and my paltry 15 years pales in comparison to others on this board.

I think what you'll find is that, at any given time, somewhere up or down the chain of command, there are bozos.  They're at all levels, and they work just as you've described (putting mission and men behind self).

However, there is also the silent majority -- the volunteers who just want to help.  Parents, former cadets, prior service, pilots, radio geeks, random people off the street, they're all here, working hard to conduct the business of CAP.

If you want to last decades in this organization, I'm convinced there are only two ways to do so:

1. Be a backstabbing ladder-climber (which doesn't work in all cases)
2. Be part of the silent majority, and just do your best for the organization

I'd like to think I'm firmly in category 2 (heck, if I'm in category 1, I'm not doing a very a good job of moving up the ladder!)

Our participation will vary based on life and CAP political circumstances, but we're always here.  I've met more good people in CAP than bad, and even the bad weren't all that bad, most were just annoying.

FWIW, another perspective on the issues you bring up.

Cheers,

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Rangersigo on April 16, 2007, 08:59:45 PM
I think we are getting off track here.  I would argue that this is not just an issue with advancement or promotion based on military service.  I have seen a SM with no military service go to being a Wing CC in 5 years.  Did he really do all the jobs that need to be done to reach that level in 5 short years in CAP? Maybe.  Did he bring in the fact that he is well accomplished on the commercial side and has led organizations operationally, you bet.  Was he advanced quick because of this - absolutely.  Do I have a problem with it - not in the least.

I agree, we are getting off track here, but I would say that the "underlying" issue here is that many CAP members feel that a lot of prior military personnel join the organization without a true understanding of what it is (actually, how many of us really do...), request, sometimes demand their promotions, just to turn around and leave after realizing that it isn't what they bargained for, or 'get' their grade and never do anything productive for the organization. 

CAP isn't about being in the limelight or huge tasks you perform, but the small tasks we perform on a day to day basis.  We can't say "we took over Iraq," but we can say, "We made a difference in that kid's life today." 

QuoteI can tell you from personal experience that I am more than likely on my way out of CAP.  Why, because of a lack of standards, professionalism, and nepotism, cronyism and self promotion.

That's a shame, I'm sorry if you feel that way, not every unit is like that.  Frequently those in a position to help don't get themselves into a position to change the very things they don't like.

QuoteI never expected CAP to be like the military - I simply wanted to continue to serve as I left the Active Army due to a combat related injury - and if you did not experience something similar - hold your tong on this as you are not qualified in any small way to comment.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

QuoteI joined to fulfill a side of me that was lost because of this and to provide an example to my sons who will not remember when dad got up in the morning and came back a year later.  And why I did it.

I'm sure that your sons will be proud of who you are and what you've done no matter what.  Again, thank you for your service.

QuoteWhat I experienced was an organization that was not concerned about mission, men (women), and then themselves, but have it backward in every way.  My point was that this is a simple concept that most that have served in the military learn early on, usually from a CSM that bumps them on the head when he says it.

Or at least someone who knows a better way of doing things.  There are a few, definitely not the majority, of people in CAP in it for the wrong reasons, your squadron from what it sounds, has more than its share of them.  But at the same time, is it because they don't do CAP 'full-time,' so they don't have enough time to plan and execute as they would like? Or is it sheer incompetence?

There are many things in CAP I wish were 'fixed', but the things I have no say in, all I can do is 'salute and execute.' (and gripe here :) )

I think I've said enough on this topic, and apparantly it is making us all a little 'flustered,' that is not the image I wish to portray.  I apologize to anyone that thinks I was degrading them or insulting them, it was not my intention.

So again, thank you for your service and dedication to this country, I appreciate it more than you know.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

JohnKachenmeister

College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Not on your life.

I have never seen a college dean up at 0-Dark-30 with his pack ready to go on a deployment to some third-world hellhole hoping that he did all the planning and preparation right and hoping to God that his decisions over the next hours/days/weeks/months are correct, because if not one or more of the sleepy-eyed young men boarding the back of the Big Jet with him will die.

And don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Being "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.

Another former CAP officer

Ned

John, my guess is that you were a little angry when you posted this.  I hope with reflection you will agree that it was a " little over the top."


And you essentially make DNall's point for him, I think.


Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 16, 2007, 10:34:37 PM
College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Nobody ever said they were the same.  But they can certainly be compared in some respects.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

I have never seen a college dean up at 0-Dark-30 with his pack ready to go on a deployment to some third-world hellhole[ . . .]

Of course, I don't think I have ever seen a CAP Corporate Officer do that either.  ;)

Which I think is sort of the point here.  Miltary experience is similar to, but in some important respects is NOT the same as CAP experience.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

And don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Steady there.  I think you would have to agree that the military has produced its fair share of "morally-deficient men [and women]"  Neither the military nor the corporate world have a exclusive lock on morality.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

Being "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.



Absolutely true.

And you become a CAP Officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsiblity for our CAP missions.



Peace.

Ned Lee
MAJ, IN (ret)

ZigZag911

Quote from: DNall on April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PM
The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.


In your eagerness to give military service its due recognition, Dennis, please don't diminish the contributions that many of us (including you!) make in CAP command and staff positions. Some CAP folks work quite hard, are very dedicated, and are accountable, if to no one else, to themselves for the quality of their service.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 16, 2007, 10:34:37 PM
College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Not on your life.

I'm sure that a college dean has more responsibility than the 0-5 that runs the admin squadron.  Why is it when anyone thinks of a 'military officer' immediately they think of 'combat' orientated officers, for lack of a better term?  That O-5 by the way would get their grade transfered, probably no questions asked.  However, the dean, only being a professional educator would become a Captain.  The Dean, probably has more people (students and faculty) to look after, as well as a larger budget to manage than said officer.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.  Simply look at responsibility level, management experience required, not ability to kill an enemy(which CAP does not need as a skill set).

QuoteAnd don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Point made above, no sense in reposting it.

QuoteBeing "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.

A military officer yes, but as we all know, there are varying definitions of an 'officer.'  My point was that 'military' officers are not the end all and be all of knowledge and responsibility.  Would you say that the POTUS would not be qualified to be a CAP Lt Col?  Or maybe that Bill Gates would not be able to 'manage' a CAP region?  Maybe John McGuire (president and CEO of the Red Cross, former Marine Captain) would only be qualified to be a CAP Captain, and a squadron commander?

These civilians make a far greater 'impact' on today's society than a lot of members in the military, you can not just 'discard' their accomplishments because they are civilians.  Their experience, inginuity, management skills, etc. give them qualifications that many military members will NEVER get.

Again, I appreciate the dedication and sacrifice our military members make on a day to day basis, please don't discard the qualifications of civilians strictly because they are civilians.

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

DNall

Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 16, 2007, 08:05:20 PM
See, you are already saying that someone with military experience is more valuable to the organization than someone who doesn't.  Not always the case.  You are also confusing the difference between a poorly managed squadron and one that isn't.  In one that isn't, staff members take their roles seriously and have accountability.
Yes I am. I understand there are excpetions to the rule. There are indeed occasional prior-service officers that stink, and every so often a non-PS officer that's pretty good. As a rule though it's just not possible to gain the kind of officership skills in CAP alone that are necessary to competently accomplish our missions, which is the primary thing holding us back. In general, yes, people with significant military leadership backgrounds are far and above more important to CAP than half our planes & pilots.

If I had my way, you couldn't be an officer w/o a couple years of college, you couldn't rise above Capt w/o a degree, you couldn't rise to field grade w/o having been a real military officer, and you couldn't command a Wg or higher unless you'd been a real field grade officer.


SLS is an introduction that SHOULD be part of Lvl I. CLC is mostly a repeat with a few things cut & covering the rest in a bit more detail. Both are quite useless. Neither is remotely a leadership or management course. I hadn't spent much time on teh new stuff so I couldn't comment on that. Everything in the PD program can be waived based on previous outside experience.

QuoteI'm glad to know that you think that running a squadron/group/wing is not an accomplishment of any kind, and those in those positions are just names on a list.
You really have to take that to the extreme? You know very well members that hadn't been to a meeting in two years are posted to positions & will have no problems taking that time credit for their progression. Why should the 20 years a mil officer spent as a safety or PAO not count the same?

QuoteCorrect.  Again, no one is doubting their abilities, or what they've earned or 'checked off.'  I would be glad to have a handful of experience military personnel in my squadron. 
Actually, some people here said they hadn't checked off what you had so they aren't worthy, that the PME isn't applicable to CAP, and that their knowledge & experience as advanced leaders has any bearing on CAP. I appreciate though that you can see the critical value they bring to the program & how much more difficult it is to function w/o people like that around.

QuotePlease clarify...he said nepotism and cryonism...
Yes he did, & he said CAP raised officers are more often guilty of it than professionally built mil officers. That's a little harder to substantiate, but you know those factors exist strongly across CAP. They are conerstones of the politics that cripple us.

Quote
QuoteYou did join the Air Force, you joined the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in....

There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

I joined Civil Air Patrol, a non-profit volunteer organization chartered by congress, that happens to perform missions for the USAF, and during the times it does hold the title of USAF Auxiliary....

So if CAP isn't for helping the community, what is it about?  What other organizations would you recommend?  Boy, I thought in these past 10 years I was helping my community...all the local cadets, all the local ES missions, all the local disaster relief, all the local volunteering at various community events...[/quote]

Civil Air Patrol is the Auxiliary of the Air Force. It exists to support the Air Force, and if excess capabilities are left over after that is done with then they can be used with discression & inside limits to support things that state/local govts can't do for themselves. The unintended bonus on the side of that does benefit the community, but we don't focus on that.

It bothers me when units sell the org as a non-military based community service club. That is unacceptable. I realize there is significant debate about our identity, but you know as well as I that we have significant military roots that cannot be denied.  

I've done quite a lot in CAP for going on 14 years, and I've seen it from the military side too, as well as from the political side. I'd tell you if you really want to help your community there are at-risk youth programs, fire/LE reserve programs, private SaR teams... a list of about a hundred things that are each dramatically more effective than CAP. The one and only thing we have that makes us special is that we get to help the Air Force, and that's it.




QuoteAnd would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

I was going to join the military, however, they don't like to take you if you have a steel rod in your spine.  So yes, I was/am good enough in aptitude and intelligence, and to this day I can do better on a PT exam than a lot of military members.

QuoteDo other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

But if management skills and leadership skills are so easily transferred over to CAP then the customs and courtesies stuff should be a cinch for them to pick up.  Our 'military' system only vaguely resembles the military.

QuoteCertainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Sometimes I wonder why my 'community service club' is trying to become the AD Air Force.  There is a reason that this organization is comprised of volunteers.  Because those volunteers want to improve their nation as volunteers, not enlisted members of the military.

QuoteI've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leaves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.

Again, this all depends on your experience in CAP.  I have had Active Duty Officers tell me that the 'CAP PME' courses I have directed have been the most professional thing they've experienced in their time in the military.  It all depends on who is doing the job.

I have been to some awful CAP training, and I will be the first to admit that a lot of CAP members do not have the aptitude to do what their 'grade' recommends.  So, I agree with the orgininal poster that something should be done about the way 'grade' is earned in CAP, I just think that it should be positional or start everyone at the beginning.

;)

EDIT 1: Change is to isn't first paragraph.
EDIT 2: Put in the edits :)

[/quote]

DNall

Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 17, 2007, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: DNall on April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PM
The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

In your eagerness to give military service its due recognition, Dennis, please don't diminish the contributions that many of us (including you!) make in CAP command and staff positions. Some CAP folks work quite hard, are very dedicated, and are accountable, if to no one else, to themselves for the quality of their service.
CAP operates FAR FAR below the minimum operating standard that would be acceptable in the national guard from teh worst people they have, and our people aren't that bad. Our system is pretty screwed though & it certainly does not create competent leaders up from the inside out.

I was useless for 3-5 years, no way in hell I deserved anything close to officer grade. It took a series of real officers & NCOs as well as upper level cadetts below me all combining to develop me into something that might be minimally functional as a 2Lt in the real world, but I was a Capt at the time. Now I'm a Major & I can tell you I think I'm about highspeed mid-level Captain capable. Yet there's still a lot of I missed coming up & that I'll get to pick up the second time thru as a real junior officer.

RiverAux

Folks, in general (no pun intended) I've got no problem with prior service personnel, especially those that have been out for a number of years.  Where I have seen problems is mostly with those who have left the service in the not so distant past and have not realized that CAP is not actually a military organization and that their CAP rank does not give them the sort of authority that an equivalent rank would in their former service.  These folks are often those that take least account of the fact that CAP is only one of many activities that members participate in and that CAP work does not automatically trump other committments.  

The other weird factor is that I have had many good experiences with currently serving military officers (usually of Captain rank and below) who join CAP.  They seem to fit in real well and do a great job.  

My primary problem is with giving advanced CAP rank to ANYONE who has not earned it as part of the standard program, whether they are a doctor, pilot, nurse, or former military officer.  I know that running CAP at any level isn't rocket science and that doing it the "hard way" doesn't grant anyone some sort of moral superiority, but I just don't think it is right to have to explain basic CAP procedures to someone from one of these special categories who has been in CAP for 5 minutes and got a rank it will take most CAP members years to earn.  

Besides the unfairness of the program, I don't think it actually accomplishes its supposed purpose of attracting these skilled individuals to CAP.  And, I'm not sure how much we really want people who would join CAP in part because they would get to start at an advanced rank.

JohnKachenmeister

Regradless of how much military training one has, SLS and CLC are non-waiverable.  The incoming military officer will still get the CAP-unique training.
Another former CAP officer