CAP Aircraft POH's

Started by 2oh6, January 15, 2014, 07:18:17 AM

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2oh6

I swear I found a link once that let you search for a particular CAP aircraft (not model, but an individual aircraft) and download a scanned version of it's POH.  Am I going crazy, or is there really a place on eServices or something where I can do this?

JeffDG

Quote from: 2oh6 on January 15, 2014, 07:18:17 AM
I swear I found a link once that let you search for a particular CAP aircraft (not model, but an individual aircraft) and download a scanned version of it's POH.  Am I going crazy, or is there really a place on eServices or something where I can do this?
I would hope not.

Aircraft POHs are copyrighted materials, and the copyrights on those documents are owned by the aircraft manufacturers.  Reproducing them, without permission, is a serious violation of Title 17, US Code and could result in significant damages, fines and/or criminal penalties.

Cliff_Chambliss

#2
Quote from: 2oh6 on January 15, 2014, 07:18:17 AM
I swear I found a link once that let you search for a particular CAP aircraft (not model, but an individual aircraft) and download a scanned version of it's POH.  Am I going crazy, or is there really a place on eServices or something where I can do this?

I have just about given up on CAP just waiting for my current membership year to end so have not really visited E-Services for the past few months.  However to answer your question, thru E-Services Pilot section you can find the NHQ Approved Normal Operations and Emergency Procedures Checklist for almost every airplane in the fleet.  If I recall correctly you can also find the Air Planes STC which modified earlier C-172 N & P aircraft to the 180hp engine.  Not on the CAP site, but if you use Bing or Google you may find the Information Manual for a make & Model aircraft  (here is a site that may help you: http://www.redskyventures.org/free_stuff.php) .

NOTE:  POH is a specific document for a specific Aircraft and is kept current with all changes.  Anything else, even if it looks like the same book is an "Information Manual". 

Anyway, you can get an information manual, get a copy of the STC (actually copies of all STC's for the specific aircraft), make the necessary changes to the information manual, then visit the FAA Website and look up the Type Certificate for the aircraft and again make any necesary changes to the information manual and you now have a "bootleg" POH for that one moment in time. (until the next change by the manufacturer or the FAA is made or the next STC applied).

It's a lot of work, but helps explain why when you call Cessna you can get in information manual for less than $50.00, but if you ask for a POH it will be a few hundred bucks.

Good Luck.
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a2capt

..and that bit with the Information Manual vs. the Operating Handbook is something that changed at some point in 1977.

My 172N is just below it, as it does not have an airframe specific POH,  though I've never found a 1978 model that had a non-specific POH.

The Cessna catalog sheet they used to periodically send would basically say along the lines of "For aircraft prior to 1978, here's a list, order from it. " .. "for 1978 and later, there can only be one POH, and it's specific to that airframe, prices for recreation start at ~$150 .. " .. "and the reason for replacement must be documented.

Yet I will say that as an operator of a flying club, those original POHs were -NOT- in the aircraft. We typically replaced it with a three ring binder that had every single thing copied in the same order. Documents, dividers, pages, blank or not, everything, with the cover annotated that this is 100% identical, but the original is in the office, locked in the locker, where you can view it in the room like a reference book.

POH's have disappeared and that effectively grounds the aircraft, and adds great expense as you can't get a new one right away no matter how much you whine.

The "Information Manual" is down the letter, the same as the overall base POH for that model/year/aircraft, but since they're typically glue bound, they can't be updated, and do not have specific options installed onboard that aircraft.

While these manuals are copyrighted, it has been my observation that these copyrights are very loosely enforced as you see various quality manuals for sale from mainstream vendors, various pilot shops and similar. Typically pretty blatantly out in the open, too.

Since there is only one legal POH for the aircraft, bogus books are practically a moot point anyway.

scooter

Look for a "Pilot Information Manual". Search by MFR/year/model. (ie. 1984 Cessna 172M) It will have everything you need except anything specific to your aircraft and any mods after manufacture. Way cheaper tan POH. Will easily get you thru the 60-1 quiz.

Mustang

Quote from: JeffDG on January 15, 2014, 01:21:36 PM
Quote from: 2oh6 on January 15, 2014, 07:18:17 AM
I swear I found a link once that let you search for a particular CAP aircraft (not model, but an individual aircraft) and download a scanned version of it's POH.  Am I going crazy, or is there really a place on eServices or something where I can do this?
I would hope not.

Aircraft POHs are copyrighted materials, and the copyrights on those documents are owned by the aircraft manufacturers.  Reproducing them, without permission, is a serious violation of Title 17, US Code and could result in significant damages, fines and/or criminal penalties.

Actually, Cessna made them freely downloadable on their website up until recently. Not sure why they took them down.
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


a2capt

I was hinting towards earlier, that even though the manuals are declared (c), it's one of the loosest examples of enforcement ever. They're pretty much everywhere for the download, in all kinds of condition. For pretty much every aircraft.

Flying clubs, university flight depts., there's scanned PDFs, native creations, and all in between.

It's as if they really -want- the information out there. Selling copies of Information Manuals, it's pittance to them.  An administrative hassle.


..and since those are "copies", "information manuals", they're not "the official source" and liability is on the user. Even though pixel for pixel.. ;-)

JeffDG

Quote from: a2capt on January 21, 2014, 04:45:28 PM
I was hinting towards earlier, that even though the manuals are declared (c), it's one of the loosest examples of enforcement ever. They're pretty much everywhere for the download, in all kinds of condition. For pretty much every aircraft.

Flying clubs, university flight depts., there's scanned PDFs, native creations, and all in between.

It's as if they really -want- the information out there. Selling copies of Information Manuals, it's pittance to them.  An administrative hassle.


..and since those are "copies", "information manuals", they're not "the official source" and liability is on the user. Even though pixel for pixel.. ;-)
Copyright is not like trademark...it's not a "use it or lose it" type of thing.  Regarless of whether they enforce it today, tomorrow they could.

Downloading an unauthorized copy is one thing.  That will, most likely, subject you to only civil penalties under copyright law.  However, were CAP to host those, that could be construed as distribution of copyright material without a license, which could subject CAP to more severe monetary penalties, but also to criminal sanctions as well.

As an example, Cessna would be fully within their rights to sue you for infringement for downloading an unauthorized manual.  They would then be entitled to demand "statutory damages".  Those damages are set in the statute, and they do not need to prove any actual damages to claim them. 

Quote from: 17 U.S. CODE § 504(c) Statutory Damages.—
(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect, at any time before final judgment is rendered, to recover, instead of actual damages and profits, an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work, for which any one infringer is liable individually, or for which any two or more infringers are liable jointly and severally, in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just. For the purposes of this subsection, all the parts of a compilation or derivative work constitute one work.

So, that single AIM from Cessna would then cost you at least $750, and could cost as much as $30,000 (plus your attorney's fees).  If the court deems your infringement "wilful", then "the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000."

Copyright infringement is a serious issue, and not one to be taken lightly.

Eclipse

There's also the whole "integrity" thing.

Kinda hard to tell cadets not to steal music and movies while holding a stolen POH.

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on January 21, 2014, 07:11:08 PM
There's also the whole "integrity" thing.

Kinda hard to tell cadets not to steal music and movies while holding a stolen POH.
There is that too.

Even absent that, if you want to download a C182 POH, well, that's between you and your conscience.  But, for God's sake, don't ask CAP to help you do it, and in the process of which, expose them to potentially bankrupting damages in doing so, not to mention potential jail time for corporate officers.

Mustang

Actually, having once been freely downloadable from Cessna's website, those PDF files are now in the public domain, regardless of whether they're currently downloadable from Cessna or not.
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


JeffDG

Quote from: Mustang on January 30, 2014, 09:46:59 AM
Actually, having once been freely downloadable from Cessna's website, those PDF files are now in the public domain, regardless of whether they're currently downloadable from Cessna or not.
That's not true whatsoever.

You're confusing two different types of intellectual property law:  trademark (where you can abandon it just as you describe) and copyright.  Copyright is not abandoned through making something available to the public for any length of time, and can be re-asserted at any time.

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

Public domain is by declaration, be it a deliberate action, or due to inaction after a specific period of time elapses with respect to the type of works, and the time they were first published.

Making the item available and people getting it to does not change it's status.

Yes, it's true that there are now instances of the work in the hands of the public, at large. That does not make it the domain of the public to decide the future of those works.