Was I out of line?

[Holding Pattern]

Even with stand your ground the threat must be of death or great bodily harm. Someone telling you to turn the #$#% camera off is neither so stand your ground all you want, you'll have a prison boyfriend in no time.

I never said the victim's first response would be to draw a gun. I did say that you provoked the confrontation, you even admit to putting on a threatening "face". You have already given the victim reason to have concern if not fear. Your tone, as you describe it, was threatening. Should he respond in kind and you escalate again, then all bets are off. And don't forget - dead men tell no tales. You may be hitting the ground because of a gunshot wound you never saw coming. And he might betting on "better to be tried by twelve, then carried by six." It really isn't a good idea, and certainly nothing to be commended for, going around threatening and bossing people around, who have every legal right to do what they are doing.

Go back to the beginning. You deliberately put on a threatening grimace, you ordered someone to stop doing something they had every right to do and you had no right to order them to do otherwise. You own any and all escalation that might have resulted from this. Consider yourself lucky - this time. The next time you might not be so lucky.

I had just as much right to tell someone to stop doing something as they do to do something. Free speech works both ways.

And to be abundantly clear: Had the individual in question escalated, I would have disengaged and walked away. Had the individual in question escalated despite me moving away, I'd have backed away towards the cops with my hands sky high... and again, where I was, everything was being recorded by several dashcams and several angles.

I have no problem telling someone off for doing something untoward. I also have no problem walking away from a fight.

[RRLE]

I had just as much right to tell someone to stop doing something as they do to do something. Free speech works both ways.

Your alleged "free speech" was done in a threatening manner. Both tone and grimace. You raised it to the level of a threat, which isn't free speech.

I also wouldn't count on your "drop to the ground" strategy to save your life. Almost any self-defense instructor will tell you to not let anyone with a knife (carried in a threatening manner), to get within 14' of yourself. That puts them within the average person's reaction time/distance. You couldn't draw and fire in time. So what chance do you think you would stand against the person you threatened, who was probably within 4'. More than likely you wouldn't even know they already had their hand on their gun. It would be drawn and fired before you knew what was happening.

Don't believe me? Check out this guy.

As I wrote before, it isn't a good idea and could be downright dangerous, telling people off in a threatening manner, when they are doing something they are within their legal rights to do.

[Holding Pattern]

We'll agree to disagree. You've made plenty of assumptions without being there and I've left out a lot of details for obvious reasons. You lead your life your way; I'll lead my life my way.

[RRLE]

The only facts I needed were that your victim was within in his full legal rights to do what he was doing and and you reacted to that in a threatening manner. I also suspect you know, deep down inside, that you did something wrong. Otherwise, why post here for positive reinforcement of a bad action? Would you like a cadet to emulate your behavior?

It wasn't that far back that someone posted here about confronting a Stolen Valor perp. I think everyone here advised them to avoid the situation and not raise it to a point of confrontation. Yet that is exactly what you did and I was a bit surprised you got some level of support.

[stillamarine]

I had just as much right to tell someone to stop doing something as they do to do something. Free speech works both ways.

Your alleged "free speech" was done in a threatening manner. Both tone and grimace. You raised it to the level of a threat, which isn't free speech.

I also wouldn't count on your "drop to the ground" strategy to save your life. Almost any self-defense instructor will tell you to not let anyone with a knife (carried in a threatening manner), to get within 14' of yourself. That puts them within the average person's reaction time/distance. You couldn't draw and fire in time. So what chance do you think you would stand against the person you threatened, who was probably within 4'. More than likely you wouldn't even know they already had their hand on their gun. It would be drawn and fired before you knew what was happening.

Don't believe me? Check out this guy.

As I wrote before, it isn't a good idea and could be downright dangerous, telling people off in a threatening manner, when they are doing something they are within their legal rights to do.

How is "Turn the #$#% camera off" a threat? No matter what the facial expression was. Movie stars do it all the time. Hell cops say it all the time, even if it has no weight of law. And no it doesn't make him responsible for any escalations. Don't work like that. I can tell you to go take a flying #$#%# at a rolling breakfast pastry, doesn't make me an aggressor. But if you come back at me with I'm gonna beat your #% then you have become the aggressor.

And no self defense instructor should be telling you to keep 14 feet from an aggressor. We used to teach 21 feet, but with the average reaction time slowing down we teach even further out.

[RRLE]

How is "Turn the #$#% camera off" a threat? No matter what the facial expression was.

Actually you're wrong. The facial expression matters a great deal, especially when the OP admitted to putting on his best "angry face". He also said that there were cameras around. A jury and probably a prosecutor first is going to look the portrait of the OP's enraged self and come to the only logical conclusion. I think you know what that is. Then depending on tone and words, both your quote above and his could be construed as fighting words.

BTW- although I think the OP should have just minded his own business, why do both you and he think that expletives and angry faces are needed. How about a nice face and a soft tone  "There are injured people here, do you mind not photographing them?" The victim of the OP could still tell him to F-word off and mind his own business but the original aggression is fairly minor.

I can tell you to go take a flying #$#%# at a rolling breakfast pastry, doesn't make me an aggressor.

Your quote could be construed as fighting words, especially if the tone matches the words. And more than likely I would tell you to go "take a Flying F-word at yourself" as my right hand eased the pocket gun out of its holster put kept it in the pocket. My father taught me at a young age to never back down from a bully.

Go back to the beginning. The OP/Perp harassed, threatened and bullied a citizen into stopping an activity they were legally allowed to perform in an area they were legally allowed to perform it in. That is great behavior for a CAP member, in or out of uniform, isn't it? If the victim was doing something they shouldn't have been, according to the OP, there were LEOs around who could have handled it. One of my first reactions to the initial post, was "who died and left you boss".

And no self defense instructor should be telling you to keep 14 feet from an aggressor. We used to teach 21 feet, but with the average reaction time slowing down we teach even further out.

Which just goes to show the OP that his "drop to the ground" strategy is pretty worthless.

[THRAWN]

This thread wins the "Idiotic Measuring Contest of the Year Award 2016"...

[stillamarine]

How is "Turn the #$#% camera off" a threat? No matter what the facial expression was.

Actually you're wrong. The facial expression matters a great deal, especially when the OP admitted to putting on his best "angry face". He also said that there were cameras around. A jury and probably a prosecutor first is going to look the portrait of the OP's enraged self and come to the only logical conclusion. I think you know what that is. Then depending on tone and words, both your quote above and his could be construed as fighting words.

BTW- although I think the OP should have just minded his own business, why do both you and he think that expletives and angry faces are needed. How about a nice face and a soft tone  "There are injured people here, do you mind not photographing them?" The victim of the OP could still tell him to F-word off and mind his own business but the original aggression is fairly minor.

I can tell you to go take a flying #$#%# at a rolling breakfast pastry, doesn't make me an aggressor.

Your quote could be construed as fighting words, especially if the tone matches the words. And more than likely I would tell you to go "take a Flying F-word at yourself" as my right hand eased the pocket gun out of its holster put kept it in the pocket. My father taught me at a young age to never back down from a bully.

Go back to the beginning. The OP/Perp harassed, threatened and bullied a citizen into stopping an activity they were legally allowed to perform in an area they were legally allowed to perform it in. That is great behavior for a CAP member, in or out of uniform, isn't it? If the victim was doing something they shouldn't have been, according to the OP, there were LEOs around who could have handled it. One of my first reactions to the initial post, was "who died and left you boss".

And no self defense instructor should be telling you to keep 14 feet from an aggressor. We used to teach 21 feet, but with the average reaction time slowing down we teach even further out.

Which just goes to show the OP that his "drop to the ground" strategy is pretty worthless.

Nope. Still no threat.

[Chappie]

As a former Law Enforcement/Fire Department Chaplain....and a civilian who has been on hand when an incident/accident has occurred (part of me always wants to respond to assist the family members/friends while medical attention is being rendered) has been to protect the victim and those with them from the "lookie-loos"...and media.   The comment made by RRLE:  "There are injured people here, do you mind not photographing them?" was/is always part of my repertoire as well as "Please give those affected by this a little privacy or space".  Another useful phrase (if situation started to escalate) was, "Put yourself in their shoes.  Would you want someone -- especially a total stranger -- taking pictures of you in a moment like this?"   There were also a couple of occasions where some good hearted folks were recruited to serve as a barrier to shield the scene.   

[stillamarine]

This thread wins the "Idiotic Measuring Contest of the Year Award 2016"...

Nah. Not even close.

[Luis R. Ramos]

RRLE-

You said "Never back from a bully..."

You are behaving like a bully on this thread!

[SarDragon]

And yelling in large bold type is not an attempt at the same thing? Just sayin'.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It may be construed so... If the perpetrator continues so.

But doing it once, it is akin to what was stated at the beginning to tell the photographer.

I paraphrase "ask the photographer to stop in a loud voice."

[RRLE]

I paraphrase "ask the photographer to stop in a loud voice."

Why loud? He is within his rights to do what he is doing. You (figuratively speaking) don't like it. Ask him politely and he is still within his rights to agree or not.  If he doesn't agree and you don't like it then leave. Speaking in a loud voice does nothing but possibly antagonize him and further escalate the situation.

BTW - I fail to see how I am bullying anyone in this thread, I just disagree with the OP and his allies who seem to think that bullying and threatening people acting within their rights is good behavior - CAP member or not.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You (figuratively speaking) don't like it. Ask him politely and he is still within his rights to agree or not.  If he doesn't agree and you don't like it then leave.

Several times the OP told you this was to be his behavior. Specifically that if he (photographer) doesn't agree and you don't like (OP) he would continue treating the patient but do no further! Yet you chose to ignore this part, and have kept a running argument on how doing something the OP did not plan to do would escalate the argument.

RRLE, you are the one escalating this situation, not the OP.

[PHall]

Luis, who made you the "Dad"?  We don't need you coming in and and yelling at us.
And with the large bolded text and the tone you used, yes you were yelling at us.
You got a problem with someone on a thread, report it to the Mods and let them do their job!

[Luis R. Ramos]

No one made me a "dad" nor was I trying to be such.

You read more than you should have.

[RRLE]

Several times the OP told you this was to be his behavior. Yet you chose to ignore this part, and have kept a running argument on how doing something the OP did not plan to do would escalate the argument.

Having dealt with my share of bullies in my life, (haven't we all) I really doubt the OP's claims to his future behavior. Bullies don't back down unless confronted. By his initial "angry face" and tone, I have no reason the OP would not have continued in his bullying behavior, if the victim hadn't stopped. The rest of the proposed scenario is how I have seen this things escalate in the past. The OP started a chain of behavior that fortunately for him, ended. The OP and others appear to fail to see how this could have gotten much worse, very fast. And the OP by starting the chain, would have owned the whole thing.

And I will repeat something I wrote earlier, the OP must have been questioning his own behavior since he started the thread and even asked "Was I out of line?". Either he had a twinge of guilt, or the question was rhetorical and he was really thumping his chest over his threatening behavior. I still see nothing admirable in what he did, nor do I see it fitting in with any CAP values that are at least sometimes discussed on this board.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You are implying there will be some further behavior based on your own past.

This is an assumption that is not based in the scenario.

If you remember recent encounters between police and community, there have been several incidents where police have killed African Americans that films showed were not intimidating and had no behavior that justified the police action.

Just because police behaved using your rationale. "I have dealt with Blacks before, he will behave like all Blacks I have dealt with."

If those policemen had not escalated the situation, they would not have killed their suspect.

It also leads to false arrests. "Men hit women several times, therefore a woman claiming a man hit her is saying the truth. Always." No matter if the woman involved was a young Marine and the man was elderly, with asthma, herniated discs. When she was the aggressor.

[Holding Pattern]

Several times the OP told you this was to be his behavior. Yet you chose to ignore this part, and have kept a running argument on how doing something the OP did not plan to do would escalate the argument.

Having dealt with my share of bullies in my life, (haven't we all) I really doubt the OP's claims to his future behavior. Bullies don't back down unless confronted. By his initial "angry face" and tone, I have no reason the OP would not have continued in his bullying behavior, if the victim hadn't stopped. The rest of the proposed scenario is how I have seen this things escalate in the past. The OP started a chain of behavior that fortunately for him, ended. The OP and others appear to fail to see how this could have gotten much worse, very fast. And the OP by starting the chain, would have owned the whole thing.

And I will repeat something I wrote earlier, the OP must have been questioning his own behavior since he started the thread and even asked "Was I out of line?". Either he had a twinge of guilt, or the question was rhetorical and he was really thumping his chest over his threatening behavior. I still see nothing admirable in what he did, nor do I see it fitting in with any CAP values that are at least sometimes discussed on this board.

What is the CAP value you are engaging in when you refuse to take my words at face value except for the ones that you want to read into?

You refuse to believe that I would disengage from an escalating situation, despite my repeated claims I would do so. You made my motives into either guilt or false pride for starting this thread. You choose to disrespect me by calling my integrity into question, and then you have the gall to bring up the CAP values while doing so.

As I mentioned before, we'll agree to disagree. I'll further mention that the reason I started this thread is to learn how to be better. You'll find that under Core Values - Excellence. It isn't chest thumping or guilt that motivates me, but a desire to do better. And it is in that spirit I'll take your posts, and I'll continue to discard your assessment of the situation and how it could have become much worse because well, you not only weren't there, but you don't have enough data based on this thread for your worst case scenario because I worked rather hard to keep the event non-identifiable. Plenty of other people have provided useful information in this thread, and to all that participated, thank you. But I think this horse is officially dead.