Patron Membership Retirement Points? Army Promotion Points

[aestu]

Hello there!

1) Does Patron membership count towards tenure / retirement?

2) If I am promoted in the Army / National Guard, does my CAP rank automatically become qualified to match? Or only when I initially join CAP?

[Storm Chaser]

Patron membership does not count torward "tenure" for the Red Service Ribbon or CAP retirement status.

You are eligible to request grade advancement based on your ARNG rank, but it's not automatic.

[DoubleSecret]

Hello there!

1) Does Patron membership count towards tenure / retirement?

2) If I am promoted in the Army / National Guard, does my CAP rank automatically become qualified to match? Or only when I initially join CAP?

1.  No.  Service as a CAP member does not count toward military tenure or military retirement. 

2.  No.  Beware of the mindset of "automatic" promotion.  A military officer in CAP who received a military officer promotion could be considered for advancement to an equivalent grade, up to Lt Col (not automatic).  See CAPR 35-5, para 3-4.  A military NCO in CAP who received a military NCO promotion wouldn't even get that, and would have to compete for promotion like other CAP NCOs.  See CAPR 35-5, para 6-3.

[lordmonar]

Just a note....That part of 35-5 about NCO promotions is not accurate.  It has changed....the ICL is jammed up in committee, but if you get an enlisted promotion in real life you will get promoted in CAP.

As stated.....there are NO AUTOMATIC promotions in CAP.   But there would have to be some serious circumstances for you not to get a matching promotion.   I can't think of any that would not also mandate kicking you out of CAP....but I guess as far as a system goes you have to allow for that one a million situation.

[aestu]

Kicking out of CAP... you mean because being in the military and CAP are mutually exclusive? Explain

[lordmonar]

Kicking out of CAP... you mean because being in the military and CAP are mutually exclusive? Explain

I meant that if you do not rate a CAP promotion to the next rank.....to match your military promotion....there should be a real reason.   The only reasons that would think were valid would also be reasons to 2B you. 

[coudano]

Two questions:

if you get an enlisted promotion in real life you will get promoted in CAP.

A. If military enlisted promotions are "real life"
then what are CAP enlisted promotions?   make believe?

B. Doesn't it seem like this would "screw" the grade caps in the NCO program (are those caps still part of the system?)

[Eclipse]

I meant that if you do not rate a CAP promotion to the next rank.....to match your military promotion....there should be a real reason.   

Um...no...the proposals set up billets and manning tables for CAP NCO promotion, no job opening, no promotion.
Allowing for external Military NCO promotions to give a "+1" breaks that day one.

You can't have it both ways and maintain the credibility you are seeking.

[Storm Chaser]

On the officer side, "promotions [to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces] are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority..." (CAPR 355-5, Para. 3-4) In addition to meeting the minimum requirements, members must "be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended." (CAPR 35-5, Para. 3-1d)

CAPR 35-5 uses a different language when addressing NCO promotions, so presumably all they need is to "be recommended for promotion by the unit commander..." (CAPR 35-5, Para. 1-6), in addition to meeting the other minimum requirements. That, assuming an ICL or revision to the regulation changes the current promotion criteria requiring skills levels, time-in-grade, and billets.

[lordmonar]

Two questions:

if you get an enlisted promotion in real life you will get promoted in CAP.

A. If military enlisted promotions are "real life"
then what are CAP enlisted promotions?   make believe?

B. Doesn't it seem like this would "screw" the grade caps in the NCO program (are those caps still part of the system?)

No not make believe.......just not real life.......CAP life.   Make of that as you will.

This change is just to align the NCO promotion and grade system with the current officer system.

[lordmonar]

I meant that if you do not rate a CAP promotion to the next rank.....to match your military promotion....there should be a real reason.   

Um...no...the proposals set up billets and manning tables for CAP NCO promotion, no job opening, no promotion.
Allowing for external Military NCO promotions to give a "+1" breaks that day one.

You can't have it both ways and maintain the credibility you are seeking.

We are simply matching up the CAP NCO system with the CAP officer system.  USAF Capt gets promoted to Major.....then he can change his CAP rails for a CAP oak leaf.

USAF MSgt gets promoted to SMSgt he get  to change his CAP rank as well.

The promotable positions have nothing to do with appointment to grade.   An AD Chief comes in as a CAP Chief no matter if the position is empty or not. 

At one time....we did not want to do it this way....but we were convinced to change it.

[capmaj]

So Pat.... If I'm reading your last correctly...... When/if the final results are in on NCO's, someone could hold a Chiefs grade in CAP within a Wing or Group even though there was already a more senior Chief in the Wing?

You could have however many eligible Chiefs or Seniors within the unit with only one of them holding the 'Command Chief' slot? And for a SMSgt to 'promote' to a Chief he or she would have to be appointed to the 'Command' slot? Is that correct?

[Storm Chaser]

Other than subsequent promotions, that's already the case. In fact, I have a CMSgt in one of my units.

[lordmonar]

So Pat.... If I'm reading your last correctly...... When/if the final results are in on NCO's, someone could hold a Chiefs grade in CAP within a Wing or Group even though there was already a more senior Chief in the Wing?

You could have however many eligible Chiefs or Seniors within the unit with only one of them holding the 'Command Chief' slot? And for a SMSgt to 'promote' to a Chief he or she would have to be appointed to the 'Command' slot? Is that correct?

Yes.

There are not quotas to the number of a particular rank.......there are only a limited number of positions one can get promoted into/from.
So....at the squadron level for you to go from TSgt to MSgt you have to get selected for the promotable slot and then get promoted.  (much like Lt Cols getting Col with appointment to Wing Commander....except you still got to do the TIG and PD.).

If there are a thousand MSgt in the squadron or even SMSgts or CMSgts...it does not matter so long as that position is open.

Same story up the echelons. 

[Storm Chaser]

So Pat.... If I'm reading your last correctly...... When/if the final results are in on NCO's, someone could hold a Chiefs grade in CAP within a Wing or Group even though there was already a more senior Chief in the Wing?

You could have however many eligible Chiefs or Seniors within the unit with only one of them holding the 'Command Chief' slot? And for a SMSgt to 'promote' to a Chief he or she would have to be appointed to the 'Command' slot? Is that correct?

Yes.

There are not quotas to the number of a particular rank.......there are only a limited number of positions one can get promoted into/from.
So....at the squadron level for you to go from TSgt to MSgt you have to get selected for the promotable slot and then get promoted.  (much like Lt Cols getting Col with appointment to Wing Commander....except you still got to do the TIG and PD.).

If there are a thousand MSgt in the squadron or even SMSgts or CMSgts...it does not matter so long as that position is open.

Same story up the echelons.

Why so many restrictions on the NCO side, as opposed to the officer side? While some specialty tracks require group or wing assignments for senior or master ratings, there are no required billets for promotion to Capt, Maj, or Lt Col. Why make it so restrictive on the NCO side? The difference almost seems arbitrary.

[lordmonar]

Speaking for the NCO committee we are not chartered to make changes or comment on the office side of things. 

But you ask  good question.

[RiverAux]

Someone may be an awesome in the Air Force and may have just received a promotion, but if they haven't shown up to do anything with CAP in 6 months, they shouldn't be getting a CAP promotion.  So, these comments are not accurate:

USAF Capt gets promoted to Major.....then he can change his CAP rails for a CAP oak leaf.

I meant that if you do not rate a CAP promotion to the next rank.....to match your military promotion....there should be a real reason.   The only reasons that would think were valid would also be reasons to 2B you. 

[Storm Chaser]

Speaking for the NCO committee we are not chartered to make changes or comment on the office side of things. 

But you ask  good question.

I understand that. I just think there should be some coordination between both sides. Changes to either program should not happen in a vacuum.

[lordmonar]

River.   I agree but I'm assuming that he is active enough to be showing up or has a decent excuse for not being there. 

[Storm Chaser]

That's why the commander needs to recommend him or her for promotion. In my group, I don't approve any promotions unless the member is an active contributor. If a commander has trouble filling out the remarks section of the CAPF 2 (or eServices Promotion module), then perhaps the member is not that active and promotion should be delayed.

[Eclipse]

Speaking for the NCO committee we are not chartered to make changes or comment on the office side of things. 

You can't fix subordinates without fixing their managers, this can't be done in any meaningful way in a vacuum.

[Storm Chaser]

My thoughts exactly. Any significant changes to either programs should be done in coordination in order to have meaningful results.

[lordmonar]

Speaking for the NCO committee we are not chartered to make changes or comment on the office side of things. 

You can't fix subordinates without fixing their managers, this can't be done in any meaningful way in a vacuum.

So fix it. 
It's not the subordinates job to fix the managers.   

[Storm Chaser]

Since CAP has not defined the role of the CAP NCO as it relates to the CAP officer, we can't really say a CAP NCO is a "subordinate" of the CAP officer in the same context as in the Air Force or military in general. As currently implemented, a CAP NCO can actually supervise a CAP officer depending on their duty or mission assignment. If that's not the intent of the new program, then that should be clarified and communicated.

[lordmonar]

Did not want to turn this into an NCO thread.   

Just saying that if you see problems with the officer promotion system its your job to fix it.

[Eclipse]

Just saying that if you see problems with the officer promotion system its your job to fix it.

No, it's literally not, nor does that negate the point made.

However anyone who thinks they can "fix" the NCO corps, without the same adjustments to the officers,
doesn't understand the question.  Nor does the fact that a few members believe the NCO corps needs to
be "fixed", actually make that true.

[lordmonar]

Slow your roll sir. 

[sarmed1]

Patron membership does not count torward "tenure" for the Red Service Ribbon or CAP retirement status.

You are eligible to request grade advancement based on your ARNG rank, but it's not automatic.

The 39-2 does not specify the type of membership, only be a member in good standing.

c. Retired Member. A member in good standing with a minimum of 20 years service as a
senior member, not necessarily continuous, is eligible to retire from Civil Air Patrol. (NOTE:
Members having 10 years service as of 1 December 1994 may retire with 12 years service.)
Cadet service does not count toward the 20-year requirement; however, this service may be
recognized on the retirement certificate if the dates of cadet membership are included in the
remarks section of the CAPF 2A.

I retired when I went to CAP RAP as a primary USAF job.  I had been a patron before that due to the CAP-RAP as an additional duty thing.  There were no issues with my retirement.

MK

[aestu]

I retired when I went to CAP RAP as a primary USAF job.  I had been a patron before that due to the CAP-RAP as an additional duty thing.  There were no issues with my retirement.

MK

So you did definitely get retirement credit for patron membership years?

I'm in a similar position right now.

[Storm Chaser]

I stand corrected. Patron members are considered senior members according to CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-1, and their "service" counts towards CAP retirement status.

No offense to our distinguished patron members, but I think only active service should count. I'm surprised that patrons get credit towards CAP retirement by making a financial contribution, but cadet sponsor members don't, even though they may be actively helping the unit.

[sarmed1]

I retired when I went to CAP RAP as a primary USAF job.  I had been a patron before that due to the CAP-RAP as an additional duty thing.  There were no issues with my retirement.

MK

So you did definitely get retirement credit for patron membership years?

I'm in a similar position right now.

I will have to look at my official senior join date and count to make sure that I didnt have enough "active" years, and that they didnt just tack on the patron years after the minimum.  But I was in a patron status when I submitted and "retired"

mk

[Shuman 14]

I stand corrected. Patron members are considered senior members according to CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-1, and their "service" counts towards CAP retirement status.

No offense to our distinguished patron members, but I think only active service should count. I'm surprised that patrons get credit towards CAP retirement by making a financial contribution, but cadet sponsor members don't, even though they may be actively helping the unit.

None taken. 

seriously can't wait for my Patron Retired Certificate... I never have to write another check.

[aestu]

I don't mind spending the extra money, if a particular squadron is looking for extra members who don't necessarily have time to commit every weekend.

If any particular squadron is looking for an extra member, please feel free to PM me.