Covid-19 remobilization updates

Started by NovemberWhiskey, November 12, 2020, 12:22:55 PM

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Luis R. Ramos

#60
QuoteIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Then ADD that WORDING to CAPR 39-3 Sect 21. F. g. Until then, requiring an official mission for a Disaster Relief Ribbon with V Device is NOT supported by regulations. It may be the regulation intent, and it may be common sense, but unless it is specified as in the section below, is NOT supported.

QuoteCAPR 39-3 Sect f. 21. f. Disaster Relief Ribbon. Awarded for participation in five actual/evaluated disaster relief missions...

Lawyers regularly lose arguments in court because they cite laws missing words. And then they go to higher courts where their argument is found to not have merit.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:35:02 AMhese have been given whether the individual is on a mission, or not on a mission.

A member going home after a meeting that sees fire or smoke coming out of a house, is "just showing up ad hoc, with zero authorization from anyone in CAP, [and] do[es] "a thing."' And he/she gets the Silver Medal, the Bronze Medal, or The Certificate of Recognition.

Those decorations are not intended for operational situations, and the approval process for those is decidedly
not just a letter from a guy.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 02:44:34 AM
QuoteIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Then ADD that WORDING to CAPR 39-3 Sect 21. F. g. Until then, requiring an official mission for a Disaster Relief Ribbon with V Device is NOT supported by regulations. It may be the regulation intent, and it may be common sense, but unless it is specified as in the section below, is NOT supported.

Then put yourself in for one.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

#63
I do not need another. The two I have have been awarded under mission numbers. But again, why are you engaging in a strawman argument? Bringing sarcasm to the messenger?
Squadron Safety Officer
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Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

It's not a strawman to directly address and answer the question.

If you don't want the dec, what is the point here?

The majority of experienced members are going to tell you it's common sense that
you have to be assigned to a mission to get a CAP mission-based decoration, and that
is what you're going to mostly get here.

Every CC in the approval chain has to decide the above. I would and have declined
a number of these personally, (they came out of the woodwork after Katrina and Sandy) as
have plenty of other CCs in and around both my chain, AOR, and outside of it.

If you believe you have a case, submit the request through your channels and see what they say,
maybe you'll set a precedent in your wing.

Heck, call NHQ.  If you get the right person you can get approval for just about anything
regardless of the regulatory verbiage or precedent.


The direct answer is:
No, the verbiage doesn't explicitly state is has to be a mission, the consensus I
have garnered in my experience is a mission is required, but since this is a subjective approval,
it could certainly be approved if the CC's in your chain are benevolent to the idea.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

#65
I will give you there will always be some trying to get one which obviously do not deserve it. As you stated, "a note on a napkin" does not merit one. But when there is a letter from the organization director, and photos of members working?

What you have cited is that commanders do not follow regulations and routinely use the argument of "it is convenient for me to add to the regulation." Which is something you regularly warn against us doing so in this forum. "Stick to regulations!" you say. But now when I present the argument that something is not supported by regulations you change your tune.

Over the years I have seen the argument presented of "needs a mission number" and have processed a lot of them as Personnel Officer. And approved or rejected my share as squadron commander and Personnel Officer. But recently it came to me as a revelation that "the regulation governing it is deficient."

And if someone from NHQ does give approval, it is because they recognize the regulation is... deficient.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 04:02:41 AMAs you stated, "a note on a napkin" does not merit one. But when there is a letter from the organization director, and photos of members working?

Now we have "members" working? By who's authority?

What you're literally suggesting is that despite the fact that, for whatever reason,
there is no CAP-approved mission or activity, members can simply self-deploy on their
own whim to do whatever they want and then expect to get decorated by CAP for it?

And the "on scene" commander is basically "anyone"? Not a CAP IC or similar delegate?

Does this include flight operations?

Do you get sortie credit towards requal and advanced ratings as well?

What's the difference right?

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: etodd on December 10, 2020, 02:31:35 AMIts GOT to be an official mission ... so they can get their ribbon/medal/certificate/etc.

Yep .... it ALWAYS comes back to uniforms and bling.

Those will have to go ... if CAP is to ever start heading in a different direction with its services.




You have to be on a mission if you want the insurance coverage.
You get hurt when you're out there with no mission number you're going to be your own dime.

Luis R. Ramos

Aha, that IS another argument given. It is, a convenience. IF the mission is an Air Force mission number you do get coverage. But do we have that assurance it is always the case? When the mission number is that for a corporate funded mission by the Wing? You do not get always insurance coverage in these cases.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

#69
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 10, 2020, 05:20:53 AMAha, that IS another argument given. It is, a convenience. IF the mission is an Air Force mission number you do get coverage. But do we have that assurance it is always the case? When the mission number is that for a corporate funded mission by the Wing? You do not get always insurance coverage in these cases.

This is incorrect, but also needs to include context.

Members are always covered by CAP for liability they may incur due to their participation
in approved activities.  This is via CAP's General Liability Insurance.

It's also why it's important to follow all the rules, as there will most definitely be a
lawyer(s) somewhere whose job it is to try and deny a claim.

See CAPR 900-5, Page 4

This includes normal unit activities, larger scale things like encampments, and C-Level missions
(regardless of funding source). This is external insurance, meaning it covers things or people
you break, but not you.

The organizaiton also provides $10,000 in accidental death, and up to $8000 in excess medical coverage
to all members as part of a self-insurance program covered by the general fund.

See CAPR 900-5, Page 8.

A, & B missions, of course, include the potential for FECA (injury compensation) and FTCA (lawsuit protection) support and coverage. 

My comment earlier about "this is not a thing" meant that you don't need a mission for the CAP
general liability to cover you, only to be participating in an approved activity.

It should also be noted that IANAL, don't usually like to watch them on TV, and history has
shown that if you find yourself needing any of the protections asserted by CAP, it'll be an expensive, protracted mess, regardless.


Summarization here: https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_Insurance_and_Benefits_Program__94261CEDF60E4.pdf

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

I think we also need to distinctly separate the many grey area overlaps that is CAP's missions.

Cadet Programs and Emergency Services are interfaced, but they are not aligned.

The vision of the Cadet Program is to develop community leaders (particularly with an aerospace emphasis)...to shape kids into becoming responsible adults who serve their community, state, and nation...in an aerospace capacity preferably, but not necessarily a must when they leave the program. This is frequently accomplished through local-level service projects, teambuilding activities, and related educational subject matter. This is precisely why cadets are the primary focus on Character Development and not senior members.

If the community presents opportunities for cadets to engage with their local peers and affiliates, that's an absolute bonus for any locale.

Emergency Services is also an added bonus for any cadet to further get involved in "something beyond themselves." There's no dispute there.

The difference is the culture of it all. If it's an Emergency Services mission, and assigned by HHQ, it has requisite qualifications for participation, and that mission may not actually have any functional or principle difference in its objectives or execution plan. If it's not an Emergency Services mission, it's a "volunteer opportunity," and often looked at very differently by the member corps. Even in this very thread, it has been brought up that we shouldn't be conducting food distribution activities because they're not the basis for "Emergency Services" and yet the same thread says if you want to conduct non-ES-assigned missions, then go start your own organization or do it on your own outside of CAP.

This is literally a "can't have it both ways" thing.

COVID-19 unveiled that there are a lot of local organizations that have been operating for quite some time and are now under extreme pressure to perform their community service mission. CAP has started to tap into those opportunities to: 1. assist and 2. gain public exposure.

But I back up to my initial comment on this thread. I saw units conducting local community service. I asked HHQ how to get involved. I was told we needed to be on the "call list" for Ground Team activation. I said that this seemed to be a very niche group being solicited to assist. The response I received was that "This is an opportunity to get your members involved in ES. Get them trained."

I go right back to "Why? Why get formally trained to hand out groceries?" That's the only difference between what other units were doing and what we were volunteering to do: qualified to hand out groceries.

If this is the culture CAP is putting forth (and I'm guessing is more local and Wing-level leadership than Nationally...guessing...), than that's an issue in the sense of telling people, particularly the Cadet Program, that Community Service is a closed niche of highly trained operators; which is factually untrue and logically ridiculous.

UWONGO2

Other organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.

arajca

In my wing, the only requirement was GES. A CAP driver's license was required if you were driving a CAP vehicle. For the flying missions, I believe only a TMP was required, but I wasn't involved in that part so I'm not positive.

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 PMIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 PMIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?

QCUA... right?

Heaven forbid that you don't get to go full #TotalForce when you volunteer your time without a bunch paperwork and pre-operating training hours/days/weekends.

arajca

Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2020, 09:23:45 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 08:59:22 PMIn my wing, the only requirement was GES.

Thus the heartburn.

GES is >NOT< a "rating".  It's a ticket to begin learning, and in and of it self
it doesn't even allow a member to even be signed into a mission.

So how does that work, exactly?
So, what rating covers delivering supplies or assembling orders?

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on December 10, 2020, 10:10:48 PMSo, what rating covers delivering supplies or assembling orders?

Nothing in a CAP "ES" parlance.

Probably the ARC or SA has a rating, since that's one of their missions.

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

Quote from: UWONGO2 on December 10, 2020, 08:38:59 PMOther organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.

^^^ Emphasis mine.  There is your answer. People up top wanting to be in control, when the simple answer would be to spread the word to Wing members, saying "Here is a great cause for anyone available, please help. Leave your CAP uniform at home. You're on your own."
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

CAP9907

#78
Quote from: etodd on December 11, 2020, 01:16:30 AM
Quote from: UWONGO2 on December 10, 2020, 08:38:59 PMOther organizations are begging for bodies and don't particularly seem to care about previous experience or any kind of certifications. The state leadership of the Red Cross reached out to my wing looking for help. We said sure, what do you need? Their NHQ was begging the states for bodies to send to various mobilizations they had for COVID, fires, and hurricanes. They wanted us to put out the word that anyone interested in deploying that the Red Cross would pay for all travel expenses and waive the usual background check since CAP already did one. All training would be provided on site. They just need butts in airplane seats headed out to various disasters ASAP.

Wing leadership starting asking questions about command and control, lability, and even uniforms. The answer back was, whoa, we just want the people, we don't need CAP itself.

Last I heard the issue was "kicked upstairs" to region, I haven't heard anything about it in a long while.

If people want to volunteer in capacities that CAP doesn't claim to be a core competency, it's just easier to do so without dragging CAP into it.

^^^ Emphasis mine.  There is your answer. People up top wanting to be in control, when the simple answer would be to spread the word to Wing members, saying "Here is a great cause for anyone available, please help. Leave your CAP uniform at home. You're on your own."

People 'up top' are not 'wanting to be in control', they are actually required by CAP Regulations. I'd refer you to CAPR 60-3, 1-3 (d), 1-10, 1-12, and 1-14. As an ESO, surely you are familiar with this. When you get up to the Section Chief level you may appreciate this more fully.

And yes, some opportunities to serve the community are better done as private, non-CAP citizens.

~9907
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

etodd

Quote from: CAP9907 on December 11, 2020, 03:12:43 AMAnd yes, some opportunities to serve the community are better done as private, non-CAP citizens.


^^^^ That was my point.

If as a member you have skill sets, whether learned within CAP, or separately, STOP waiting for CAP to give you opportunities. Sure, its great when it happens. But get to know the players in your area, and let them know what you can bring to the table, individually.

While CAP leadership tries to figure out how to make things work .... go get some things done on your own, sans uniform.

Help the Red Cross ... build a house with Habitat for Humanity .... help the local Sheriff search for a missing person ... do something ...

The pride and satisfaction knowing you helped others ... is always a much better reward than some ribbon or certificate.

Its a good thing. :)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."