Getting my CAP records back from former squadron CC

[ZigZag911]

One more thought: have you discussed your issues with an IG, chaplain or the next echelon CC?

If not, might be worth considering.

Unfortunately.....as a non-member he has no standing towards the IG.

Having said that....really it should be as simple as "can I get a copy of my records" and then if no joy an E-mail to the wing "They won't give me a copy of my records".

Bad blood happens.   That's life.   But we can try to keep it professional.

Per CAPR 123-2, para 1d, "CAP IGs receive and process complaints from any source (including anonymous)..."

This does represent a change in procedure in the latest version of the regulation; you are correct that previously, as a non-member (former member) he would have lacked standing...but not today.

However, I was actually thinking more about the IG or chaplain as someone experienced in resolving these disputes informally...I was not suggesting a formal complaint.

[Fubar]

Don't let your emotions get the best of you (usually easier said than done). There's no need for explanations or side commentary, just list exactly what you want. A copy of your records.

Dear xxx,

I am requesting a copy of my CAP personnel file. Please advise the most convenient date, time, and location for me to obtain a copy of the file from you.

Sincerely yours,

SuperFunGuy

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What PHall said. Don't get my dander up, or I might feel I have to get IG guidance, and there is no time frame in the regulation for complying with your request. The regulations are like the Force in Star Wars- they can be used for Good, or for the Dark Side.

It is odd that you would say that.

Normally I am very quiet and reserved, some would say placid...a former girlfriend's father asked if I ever spoke in words longer than two syllables.

However, when I do get angry, and it takes a lot to light my fuse, and even longer to extinguish it, my wife says "I see your eyes getting yellow...when does the blue lightning from the fingertips start?"  Even so, I rarely raise my voice.  It is often more unsettling for a quiet person to become angry through "slow burn" than for someone who easily flies off the handle and starts shouting.  I hardly ever shout.

My former CC has seemed to be the type to anger quickly.  Of course, when I was under his command I took every measure I could to not anger him.  Now it doesn't bother me how angry he gets or if he wants to condemn me and my ancestors back 500 years because I've faced worse.  Nonetheless, I really would prefer not to see him face-to-face because knowing him as I do, he could possibly use the occasion to insult me, which would be an immature and unwise course of action.  There are other people in the unit who I had a far better relationship with (including the now-former CC, who was CC when I joined) who could bring the records, exchange brief pleasantries and have the business concluded.

However, point(s) taken, but paying for copies is a non-starter.  I am on a fixed income and he has a very high-paying job.  He can afford it.

Redux:

Dear Major ******:

IAW CAPR 39-2 I request any and all of my CAP records, or copies thereof.

My request is that you forward them to my home address via Certified Mail with Return Receipt.

However, I will meet with you or someone you designate in an off-site public location, and I will provide a signed receipt for your records.

Respectfully,



***** ******

CC: Lt Col ****** *****, CC Group ***

[SMWOG]

""However, point(s) taken, but paying for copies is a non-starter.  I am on a fixed income and he has a very high-paying job.  He can afford it.""

Please dont take this the wrong way but If you want a hard copy of your record you should have to pay for it.
You make the assumption  that the commander has a high paying job so he can pay for it. The commander pays his annual dues like every onne else, you come off sounding like people who make more income should pay for something you want because you make less. I would suggest asking for a e copy of your record emailed to you. If you wanted a copy of a police report or medical pcr from EMS because by law you are entitled  to those records if they pretain  to you,you would have to pay for the copies.

I hope you get your record. Thanks for your service to CAP,its aways disappointing  to see members leave.

[THRAWN]

Don't let your emotions get the best of you (usually easier said than done). There's no need for explanations or side commentary, just list exactly what you want. A copy of your records.

Dear xxx,

I am requesting a copy of my CAP personnel file. Please advise the most convenient date, time, and location for me to obtain a copy of the file from you.

Sincerely yours,

SuperFunGuy

Bingo. If you need to copy the group commander, do it. This is a one sentence request.

Mods, why are there two threads on this?

[LSThiker]

{snip}However, point(s) taken, but paying for copies is a non-starter.  I am on a fixed income and he has a very high-paying job.  He can afford it.

CyBorg, you are becoming defensive.  You are trying to rationalize a particular position and attitude.  Frankly, I do not know if it is justified or not, but truthfully, it does not matter.  You are making a request for a copy of your CAP records at your own expensive.

Go with what Garibaldi wrote or make a slightly different approach.  I would take a slightly different approach than that, but it is up to you.



Dear Major __________,

I request a copy of my Civil Air Patrol membership record in accordance with CAPR 39-2, Section 1-8.  You may mail a copy to my home of record via Certified Mail.  Or, if you prefer, I am willing to meet you, or an appointed designee, for a copy of my records.  Please contact me via [email or phone] to setup a date, location, and time. 

Sincerely,



CC:  Lt Col *****, XX Group Commander

[CAPAPRN]

I really think the copy fee is not an issue. I have a copier at the squadron, and paper is cheap. I think the redo on the letter is much better, and if anything I would leave the "IAW 39-2" out. I am sure the commander already knows 39-2, and quoting regs to people, in general, never really is the start of a friendly conversation. As I stated, bringing up the regs leaves you open to the "Dark Force" regs. CyBorg- thank-you for the PM, please see my reply. I hope we can find you a cyber home. We have done it with a lot of people.

[MIKE]

Provided you were not terminated or non-renewed for cause, you should be able to receive the original documents IAW CAPR 39-2.

[Storm Chaser]

That's correct. CAPR 39-2, Para 1-8 states, "Members who transfer, resign, retire or fail to renew may request their membership records from the unit. The unit should keep a copy of the former member's personnel record in the inactive file."

Any expense incurred making copies for the unit to retain are covered by the unit, not the former member. That said, there's no requirement for a unit to send these by "Certified Mail with Return Receipt" or for squadron members to meet you at "an off-site location" to hand them over. While your former squadron commander may agree to your request, he may very well ask you to stop by the squadron to pick up your personnel records. It doesn't matter if "he has a very high-paying job", he's not required to incur in any personal expense to accommodate your request.

If you want him to be accommodating, then I recommend you follow the advice given and write a request that doesn't seem combative or defensive. Just plainly and politely make your request. If you don't want to talk to him, then approach the squadron personnel officer or deputy commander instead. Good luck!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Provided you were not terminated or non-renewed for cause, you should be able to receive the original documents IAW CAPR 39-2.

I resigned.

Any expense incurred making copies for the unit to retain are covered by the unit, not the former member. That said, there's no requirement for a unit to send these by "Certified Mail with Return Receipt" or for squadron members to meet you at "an off-site location" to hand them over.

The certified mail with return receipt is a CYA move for both me and the unit, which is why I would provide them with a signed receipt should it need to be done in person.

While your former squadron commander may agree to your request, he may very well ask you to stop by the squadron to pick up your personnel records. It doesn't matter if "he has a very high-paying job", he's not required to incur in any personal expense to accommodate your request.

Actually, I am probably incurring more "personal expense" than he would be.

The meeting site is roughly 15 miles from my HOR, in another city.  He lives in the same city a few blocks from the meeting site.  There are several service stations, restaurants, schools, etc. within five minutes of the meeting site.  Any would be acceptable to me.

The fact is that I trust this guy about as far as I could throw a C-130.  He has already refused to meet with me face-to-face when I was still a member; I have never had a squadron commander do that in 20+ years in-and-out of CAP.  That tells me several things about his character or lack thereof.

I will not meet him now where there are no witnesses.  I could easily see him now trying to berate, insult, etc. me, which is something I do not, and will not, tolerate.  In my experience, most are far less likely to do that when there are other eyes and ears.  It is not that I could not stop him were he to exhibit such behaviour; I could quite easily, but that would open up issues that I have no desire to go through.  My aim is to not give the situation the chance to arise.

If you want him to be accommodating, then I recommend you follow the advice given and write a request that doesn't seem combative or defensive. Just plainly and politely make your request. If you don't want to talk to him, then approach the squadron personnel officer or deputy commander instead. Good luck!

Any perception of defensiveness/combativeness (and I will not lie and say it is not there) comes from the fact that there is such negativity from both sides, arising from the fact that I do not trust him and that he would not have the common human courtesy to communicate with me.  I went over his head to Group; they were sympathetic but said there was really nothing to be done.  I also know that Group CC talked to Wing CC about it...that cannot have disposed him to view me in any more of a favourable light.  Actually, I really do not care what he thinks of me, and actually he could keep all the CAP related material.  However, my file contains a copy of my military discharge papers (NGB 22), and he has no right to those.  Those came from my State Military Department/Adjutant General and are unrelated to CAP.

I would actually prefer that someone else from the unit do the handover; there are people there whom I have no reason to distrust and who I believe would do it decently and professionally.

If he wants to make an issue of it based on his feelings toward me (and I understand from my meeting with Group CC that I am not likely to be on his Christmas card list either, which is neither here nor there from my perspective) over a process that should take at most 10 minutes, when I am trying to minimise any potential problems beforehand...then all I can really say is such conduct does not reflect well on him or on CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CyBorg- thank-you for the PM, please see my reply. I hope we can find you a cyber home. We have done it with a lot of people.

PM within the next 24.

[Storm Chaser]

CyBorg- thank-you for the PM, please see my reply. I hope we can find you a cyber home. We have done it with a lot of people.

PM within the next 24.

Most of my group staff works from home. And while I try to meet with staff officers as often as possible, many of our meetings are done through teleconference. You should definitely explore that option.