Cadet Demotions

[DC]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone known this to be done in recent history?

If so, why? Just about any offense I can think of could either be handled by a less severe measure, or would necessitate immediate 2Bing (Drug abuse, etc)...

[Psicorp]

I've only heard of it being done once.  It was intended to be a clue-by-four to the brain pan.  If I recall correctly, the cadet's parental units were involved with that decision.

You're right though, most often other tactics are taken (counselling, promotions withheld, staff positions recinded, etc.).   A 2B should be a last resort, all other tactics failed, option.



   

[Sleepwalker]

We had a Cadet 2Lt demoted two ranks (by our Commander) because he made a joke that was sexist.  The kid was 17 at the time, and he just thought he was being funny (it was not even a 'rude' joke) but he was immediatly knocked down.  To his credit, he understood what he did wrong, took his medecine, and re-erned his Mitchell.  He 'retired' from the Cadet program as a C/Captain, and is a great young man today.     

[Eclipse]

"Re-earned" his Mitchell?

We can demote cadets, but can we yank milestones?  Or are you speaking metaphorically?

I don't have an issue with a cadet being required to change his insignia and losing privileges internal to CAP, but I'd have an issue with yanking the Mitchell, especially for a cadet on an enlisted military track.

[BlackKnight]

A couple of years ago I had a C/2nd Lt who was not performing up to par in his cadet commander position. Nothing I said really seemed to get his attention, but he was oh so proud of those C/2nd Lt pips.  Following an episode where he went AWOL (socializing with cadets at another squadron during a SAREX without turning over command to subordinate), I prepared all the paperwork for a temporary 60-day demotion to C/CMSGT per CAPR 52-16 and presented it to my unit commander for approval.  Note the word temporary. He would not have to re-earn the Mitchell or retake any tests, but he would lose the right to wear his pips until he showed improvement.  My commander read it over and decided to simply remove the cadet from command, and replace him with - no one.  I advised that was the wrong approach but was overruled. 

Consequently I wasn't able to salvage that cadet officer - he did not renew in CAP, and in fact so many things went wrong following the very public "firing" from his command position that it contributed to his not graduating from high school and not getting the military enlistment he was pursuing.

Sometimes a temporary demotion is far better than other alternatives. You have to evaluate each case on its merits and try to decide what will work best for the unit and for the cadet in question.

[ZigZag911]

I have seen (well, truth to tell, actually imposed it myself a couple of times) cadet demotions....without revealing details, circumstances were public and serious enough that the misbehaving cadets and their peers had to recognize that this sort of behavior would not be tolerated....however, there was also a realization that these were adolescents, not adults, and so a "temporary" penalty was intended for remedial purposes....not to humiliate, not to punish, but to teach a lesson.

I was group CC at the time....consulted my wing CC (who had actually witnessed the offense! but was the kind of leader who allowed subordinate commanders to do their jobs, so it truly was a consultation), then met the cadets involved, their parents, squadron commanders, and DCCs (seeing one cadet and associated adults at a time, I believe there were 4 or 5 involved in the incident).

My decision (demotions of one to three achievements, depending on degree of involvement, which was what the regulations permitted at the time) were not
universally embraced by the adults, though they had the chance to state their views, and I made my position as clear as I could -- they understood where I was coming from, whether or not they agreed....interestingly most of the cadets sheepishly admitted that they had made a mistake.

A demotion, for a cadet, is almost a backhanded compliment; it is basically saying "You have really messed up this time, but we still see too much potential in you to simply terminate your membership."

[DC]

Okay, while we're on this topic, how do you handle disciplinary actions for cadets, do you have a system? Like: 1st offense - informal counseling 2nd Offense - meeting with DCC, etc?

[ZigZag911]

You need to work out in your squadron, with your DCC, how you want to approach it, but basically the answer is "yes" -- discipline in CAP should be appropriate to the behavior (we don't 2B for unshined shoes!)  and should escalate for repeat offenses.

Now, some offenses may be so serious that they will call for more serious consequences for even a 1st offense (e.g., failure to salute might call for remedial training or counseling, while insubordination to the wing commander might demand  a suspension).

Generally, discipline starts with relatively lighter consequences, and builds to more serious ones.

[lordmonar]

"Re-earned" his Mitchell?

We can demote cadets, but can we yank milestones?  Or are you speaking metaphorically?

I don't have an issue with a cadet being required to change his insignia and losing privileges internal to CAP, but I'd have an issue with yanking the Mitchell, especially for a cadet on an enlisted military track.

We pull the rank...but not the ribbon.  The cadet has to re-do all the requirments for that rank to progress....so in the case of the 2d Lt busted 2 ranks (SMSgt or CMSgt) depending on how you read the regulation....he would have to do all the requirements for those ranks just as if he never earned them.

And milestone can be pulled according to the decorations regulation.

[lordmonar]

Okay, while we're on this topic, how do you handle disciplinary actions for cadets, do you have a system? Like: 1st offense - informal counseling 2nd Offense - meeting with DCC, etc?

Depends of the offense, the cadet, his attitude, his circumstances, frequency of repeat offenses, etc.

Basically.....verbal counseling, CAPF 50, Letter of Repremand, 2b.

[afgeo4]

Okay, while we're on this topic, how do you handle disciplinary actions for cadets, do you have a system? Like: 1st offense - informal counseling 2nd Offense - meeting with DCC, etc?

I like your approach Delta Charlie. I think the system has to be in place, but it has to be very flexible. First of all, some offenses are worse than others. Some may require immediate LORs. Some may require immediate suspension and/or investigation and removal from command. Some may simply require informal counseling.

Having said that, I think a simple "lack of judgment" issue is best approached by what you mentioned. 1st offense, informal counseling. 2nd offense, formal counseling by immediate supervisor with next up supervisor present (so that the cadet or senior is aware that this decision is supported by command) and a Letter of Reprimand be inserted into record with agreement that such letter will be destroyed if problem is fixed after a set period of time (you must make sure the command keeps their word). Only if that fails should you take it up to the DCC (in my opinion). If you are successful, set up another meeting with the cadet/senior after the set period of time, thank the person for having fixed the problem and destroy the LOR in  front of them. It is the honorable thing to do.

[afgeo4]

"Re-earned" his Mitchell?

We can demote cadets, but can we yank milestones?  Or are you speaking metaphorically?

I don't have an issue with a cadet being required to change his insignia and losing privileges internal to CAP, but I'd have an issue with yanking the Mitchell, especially for a cadet on an enlisted military track.

We pull the rank...but not the ribbon.  The cadet has to re-do all the requirments for that rank to progress....so in the case of the 2d Lt busted 2 ranks (SMSgt or CMSgt) depending on how you read the regulation....he would have to do all the requirements for those ranks just as if he never earned them.

And milestone can be pulled according to the decorations regulation.

CAPR 39-3 Section C refers to CAPR 52-16 for guidance for awarding/revoking Milestone Awards.

CAPR 52-16 Section 2-12 Demotions & Terminations states that a cadet may be demoted up to 3 steps down (3 achievements or 2 achievements and 1 award). No temporary demotions or terminations are authorized. The cadet has to re-earn each achievement and award and is given up to 60 days for each achievement to do so. If the cadet is unable to do so, the commander shall pursue termination.

[DC]

Okay, while we're on this topic, how do you handle disciplinary actions for cadets, do you have a system? Like: 1st offense - informal counseling 2nd Offense - meeting with DCC, etc?

Depends of the offense, the cadet, his attitude, his circumstances, frequency of repeat offenses, etc.

Basically.....verbal counseling, CAPF 50, Letter of Repremand, 2b.

How do you use a Form 50 to discipline a cadet, other just putting your opinion of them on paper? We use CAPF 50s as part of our normal promotion process, in the case of an in-ranks cadet the Flight CC fills out the Form 50 and it is provided to the Promotion Board, who does their own evaluation of the cadet based on what they see when the cadet is before the board, and the Flight CC's evaluation to decide whether or not to promote the cadet.

Even the new phase specific forms have basically the same gist, just fancier...

[afgeo4]

Okay, while we're on this topic, how do you handle disciplinary actions for cadets, do you have a system? Like: 1st offense - informal counseling 2nd Offense - meeting with DCC, etc?

Depends of the offense, the cadet, his attitude, his circumstances, frequency of repeat offenses, etc.

Basically.....verbal counseling, CAPF 50, Letter of Repremand, 2b.

How do you use a Form 50 to discipline a cadet, other just putting your opinion of them on paper? We use CAPF 50s as part of our normal promotion process, in the case of an in-ranks cadet the Flight CC fills out the Form 50 and it is provided to the Promotion Board, who does their own evaluation of the cadet based on what they see when the cadet is before the board, and the Flight CC's evaluation to decide whether or not to promote the cadet.

Even the new phase specific forms have basically the same gist, just fancier...

You can write in constructive criticism on the CAPF 50 after formal counseling making what is expected of the cadet clear to him/her.

[CadetProgramGuy]

This has already been mentioned but I wanted to emphasis somthing.....

CAPR 52-16 Section 2-12 Demotions & Terminations states that a cadet may be demoted up to 3 steps down (3 achievements or 2 achievements and 1 award). No temporary demotions or terminations are authorized. The cadet has to re-earn each achievement and award and is given up to 60 days for each achievement to do so. If the cadet is unable to do so, the commander shall pursue termination.

[MIKE]

I think a direct and complete citation is needed:

2-12. Demotions & Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification & Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
d. Affect on Ribbons & Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 2-13.