Calling the room to attention to attention (or parade rest) for cadets.

[LSThiker]

So a cadet would salute a SM in polo, but the SM would not return the salute.  A SM in polo meets another SM in higher grade, but the SM in polo would not salute.

It's appropriate, when not in uniform, to acknowledge a salute from someone in uniform with a non-salute equivalent courtesy like a nod, wave, greeting, or "carry on".

When I am in uniform and I recognize a Colonel in a polo or civilian clothes, I'll salute, but more like a "hand salute" than a "present arms". In other words, I raise my hand and salute, greet the Colonel, and drop my hand without waiting for the Colonel to figure out what to do next (I want to recognize the senior grade without causing any awkwardness).

Correct.  That is basically what I said. 

A cadet in uniform meets a SM in a polo.  The cadet salutes, the SM does not (implied that he gives a verbal acknowledgment). 

A SM Captain in a polo meets a SM Colonel.  The SM Captain does not salute, but gives a verbal acknowledgment to the Colonel.  The Colonel verbally acknowledges.  (AFI 36-2203, 3.6.1). 

A SM Captain in USAF-style uniform meets a SM Colonel in polo.  The Captain salutes.  The Colonel does not, but gives a verbal acknowledgment.

This would hold for a person wearing the blazer instead of the polo.  However, for the white aviator shirt, you would salute as though you are wearing the USAF-style uniform. 

From my understanding (and training), you would continue to hold the salute until finally recognized by the ranking officer (whether an actual salute or a verbal acknowledgment) as you would do if he/she were in uniform as you would expect a return salute.  Of course, AFI 36-2203 does not specifically state otherwise, but I think that is the intent. 

[ALORD]

"Another example found widely across CAP is that units that hold formation indoors usually do so with their headgear on, even though everybody knows you''re not supposed to wear headgear indoors (even the military does that, BTW)."

Isn't carrying a #2 pencil considered as being "Under Arms" in the Air Force?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not a pencil. A pen.

Haven't you heard "The pen is mightier than the sword?"

[ALORD]

Not a pencil. A pen.

Haven't you heard "The pen is mightier than the sword?"

Touche'!

[Tim Day]

From my understanding (and training), you would continue to hold the salute until finally recognized by the ranking officer (whether an actual salute or a verbal acknowledgment) as you would do if he/she were in uniform as you would expect a return salute.  Of course, AFI 36-2203 does not specifically state otherwise, but I think that is the intent.

It would not be incorrect to hold the salute until you felt the senior officer had acknowledged it. In practice, what constitutes acknowledgement is open to interpretation and walking around at attention with your hand up until the polo-shirted senior says something would be awkward for both of you. Or, he may greet you first, acknowledging you before you have a chance to salute...

So, exercising NIN's admonition, use situational awareness and do something more than a flippant gesture and less than walking around with your hand on your forehead. The intent is to render a courtesy that acknowledges the senior's grade and presence within a cultural context of special respect for a fellow member or active duty officer.

[TheSkyHornet]

NIN, you (as usual) have some great inputs.

Question though:  my impression was always that the parade rest for NCOs was strictly an Army thing, per FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions. I've never known that to be written anywhere for CAP. True?

Sort of like "hitting the wall" every time an officer walks through, or the "by your leave", or the "no hands in pockets", this seems like something that I'd be careful about endorsing as sacred. I'd prefer as a unit commander to have my Chiefs focus on the core issues, and skip the unwritten trappings until the unit was firing on all cylinders.

Thanks in advance, if you have any thoughts on the unwritten parade rest thing,
Spam

In all my time in CAP and the brief stint in the army, we've never, not once ever, gone to parade rest when addressing NCOs. It's an army thing. Not sure about Marines or Navy.

"standby" (parade rest) is a thing with NCO's in the USAF, specifically in closed training environments like tech school.
that's the first and last place i've seen it though

For Navy---
When an officer came around, stand at attention and render the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention and then everyone would render the greeting of the day. It was never an excuse not to know who (male or female) came on deck because you're supposed to be maintaining constant situation awareness.

Person who sees the officer: "Attention on deck.
Entire group: "Good morning, Sir."

When an NCO (specifically in regard to a Chief or higher) came around, you stood at attention and rendered the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention, instruct them to standby, and everyone would then render the greeting of the day.

Person who sees the Chief: "Attention on deck! Standby!"
Entire group: "Good morning, Chief!"
Chief: "Carry on."
Entire group: "Carry on, aye, Chief! Good afternoon, Chief!"

But this is USAF Aux, obviously, not Navy.

So a cadet would salute a SM in polo, but the SM would not return the salute.  A SM in polo meets another SM in higher grade, but the SM in polo would not salute.

It's appropriate, when not in uniform, to acknowledge a salute from someone in uniform with a non-salute equivalent courtesy like a nod, wave, greeting, or "carry on".

When I am in uniform and I recognize a Colonel in a polo or civilian clothes, I'll salute, but more like a "hand salute" than a "present arms". In other words, I raise my hand and salute, greet the Colonel, and drop my hand without waiting for the Colonel to figure out what to do next (I want to recognize the senior grade without causing any awkwardness).

Correct.  That is basically what I said. 

A cadet in uniform meets a SM in a polo.  The cadet salutes, the SM does not (implied that he gives a verbal acknowledgment). 

A SM Captain in a polo meets a SM Colonel.  The SM Captain does not salute, but gives a verbal acknowledgment to the Colonel.  The Colonel verbally acknowledges.  (AFI 36-2203, 3.6.1). 

A SM Captain in USAF-style uniform meets a SM Colonel in polo.  The Captain salutes.  The Colonel does not, but gives a verbal acknowledgment.

This would hold for a person wearing the blazer instead of the polo.  However, for the white aviator shirt, you would salute as though you are wearing the USAF-style uniform. 

From my understanding (and training), you would continue to hold the salute until finally recognized by the ranking officer (whether an actual salute or a verbal acknowledgment) as you would do if he/she were in uniform as you would expect a return salute.  Of course, AFI 36-2203 does not specifically state otherwise, but I think that is the intent. 

CAP requires that cadets salute all officers regardless of what they wear.

"When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it." - CAPP 151, Page 9

I was taught never to salute an officer not in uniform. Instead, you stand at attention until they acknowledge you or pass (if you're standing still at they walk by), or you simply pass them and issue a greeting (if you're walking by). However, prior to fully understanding CAP's policy, I have noticed in CAP that it does seem to be a common thing for people to salute others not in uniform. I had that hesitation and thought "What's the protocol?" and then rendered a salute to be followed by a response of "You don't have to salute me; I'm not in uniform." And that's more common with the prior service guys it seems. I find the former firefighter/EMS types tend to be more demanding of a salute while those with zero exposure to any form of disciplined chain of command don't care much either way.

So there's a lot of good/bad gouge floating around. It's a matter of figuring out what's correct in all that gouge (which is all in the publications). It would really help if senior members, who are supposed to be the primary example for the cadets and new members, to be consistent and not be so hard up for a salute or not overly casual and careless. Protocols should be followed, and corrections can be made without being a total prick about it or being completely nonchalant like it's no big deal.

The amount of crap I hear that starts with "At encampment, they told us..." 

[THRAWN]

"I was taught never to salute an officer not in uniform."

Then you were in the wrong Navy... 

[Spam]

The amount of crap I hear that starts with "At encampment, they told us..." 

Yeah, tell me about it, Hornet. We've had to "deprogram" our cadets and even cadet officers upon their return from our encampments for years... encampments, meh.


I had a classic call to attention instance at my meeting earlier this month. My CDI was absent, so I stepped in as the commander to conduct Character Development. When, followed by my cadet officers/staff, I entered the room with my printed discussion guides in hand (tip of the hat to Chaplain Corps), one of my hard charging C/TSGTs fearlessly informed me that he had a class in session, as LTC M was absent, and hence he wasn't calling the room to attention for me.


I just smiled, replied, "I'm pretty sure this is my class, actually", thanked him for his initiative, and started the class.


My officer perspective: don't suppress the praiseworthy initiative to adapt, improvise, and overcome, as long as its within regs and follows ORM. My impression was that he was actively engaged in starting one of our preplanned "courses in a can" as a fallback plan, while unaware that higher had already taken care of it. He was obviously not forgetful of courtesies, nor was he dodging his job as a junior C/NCO. Therefore, no need to be abrasive on the officers part.


Conversely, the perspective of the junior person (cadet or officer) should never be to try to pull some fake "class" to dodge courtesies, just as we see some folks on base dash for the doors to get inside before Colors, to avoid rendering honors, or carrying on driving around, claiming they don't hear the music playing the Anthem (I've even seen someone roll their window up while doing so). Bad Form!


V/R
Spam

[Tim Day]

The amount of crap I hear that starts with "At encampment, they told us..." 

That was a major theme for VAWG Encampment 2015. We focused on CAPP 151 and AFMAN 36-2203 and knocked off a lot of extraneous stuff like "toeing the line" and the "hat game". In 2016 we'll continue and concentrate that focus. The idea is that encampment should be the schoolhouse / center-of-excellence / model program.

Our vision is that someday when cadets say "This is how we did it at encampment..." it'll be the same as saying "CAPP 151 states..."

[Spam]

"I was taught never to salute an officer not in uniform."

Then you were in the wrong Navy... 

Concur.

Coolest retirement ceremony I ever attended was for a CDR who requested Hawaiian attire, held out on the sea wall with tiki torches in the evening with a pig roast. They rigged man ropes and the bell, but held the ceremony in a riot of colors... and all rendered honors for a great guys service.


V/R
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

"I was taught never to salute an officer not in uniform."

Then you were in the wrong Navy... 

Concur.

Coolest retirement ceremony I ever attended was for a CDR who requested Hawaiian attire, held out on the sea wall with tiki torches in the evening with a pig roast. They rigged man ropes and the bell, but held the ceremony in a riot of colors... and all rendered honors for a great guys service.


V/R
Spam

Courtesies were at the discretion of the CO. If CDR wanted us to salute, we saluted. These were just the protocols we were taught. Our Chief in the N1 Admin office was extremely unlocked, but always professional. She always enforced that we did not render salutes when the officers came in from their morning jogs.

You learn what you're taught. It's only as good as the people teaching you. And if they're wrong, you're taught the wrong stuff. And you know how it goes when you don't do it "their way." It wasn't the most comfortable, well, just call it a "reminder."

Lucky for us, I find that CAP is pretty accommodating with "Here is the way to do it," even if there is some dispute. The problem is that you have a large population of people who don't even know the difference between an NCO and an Officer. I've had that discussion where Captains and Majors in CAP start arguing about "You should always salute any senior, regardless of insignia." The cycle continues.... 

[THRAWN]

"Courtesies were at the discretion of the CO."

I was under the impression that there were regulations about things like this. Guess I missed the part where it says that COs have discretion...

[arajca]

The amount of crap I hear that starts with "At encampment, they told us..." 

It works both ways. At Encampment, we deal ALOT of, shall we say unique, drill moves and commands the staff brings from their unit. As our Encampment Commander for the past few years has memorized every letter, punctuation mark, and space in the D&C manual and CAPP 151, he usually spots them immediately. The usual corrective action is "Cadet blank, please show me where in the D&C manual that command is." Every cadet line staff member is issued one for encampment. The usual reply is "Sir, I cna't find it in the manual, but that's what we do at my unit." Wrong answer, especially when the stated and pounded expectation is to follow the manual. PERIOD.

[SarDragon]

For Navy---
When an officer came around, stand at attention and render the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention and then everyone would render the greeting of the day. It was never an excuse not to know who (male or female) came on deck because you're supposed to be maintaining constant situation awareness.

Person who sees the officer: "Attention on deck.
Entire group: "Good morning, Sir."

When an NCO (specifically in regard to a Chief or higher) came around, you stood at attention and rendered the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention, instruct them to standby, and everyone would then render the greeting of the day.

Person who sees the Chief: "Attention on deck! Standby!"
Entire group: "Good morning, Chief!"
Chief: "Carry on."
Entire group: "Carry on, aye, Chief! Good afternoon, Chief!"

But this is USAF Aux, obviously, not Navy.

YGBSM! Where, oh where, did you come up with this?

I have NEVER seen this in practice past boot camp. EVER! I lived in an active duty household for 48 years, and am related to two Chiefs, one by birth, and the other by marriage. I get onto a Navy base at least once a month, and have yet to see anything like this going on.

[777Pilot]

This message is to everyone in general.
Thank you everyone for your replies! You guys definitely answered my questions. I will definitely read through 151. (Next time I'll do that before asking) . Yes I was referring to "revamp" as start using C&C again in the squadron. I also found it very interesting how much this relates to other branches of the military! (I don't come from a military home. I only have a few friends who were in the military. Primarily Navy) Thanks again everyone!!

[LSThiker]

C/CMS

Also, might want to take a look at page 16 of CAPP 151.

[ALORD]

It's amazing how much gets passed down by lore alone. I remember the first time I went o an NCOS, there were entire printed regulations copies available, and cadets were encouraged to throw a Bachelor of Science flag when someone started mixing in Marine, Army, Navy, Full Metal Jacket, or Top Gun knowledge base info that was the standard in their squadron. Of course, even then, the printed regs were out of date and self-contradicting in places, but at least if someone just made something up, you had a basis to consult authoritative documents.

[Flying Pig]

For Navy---
When an officer came around, stand at attention and render the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention and then everyone would render the greeting of the day. It was never an excuse not to know who (male or female) came on deck because you're supposed to be maintaining constant situation awareness.

Person who sees the officer: "Attention on deck.
Entire group: "Good morning, Sir."

When an NCO (specifically in regard to a Chief or higher) came around, you stood at attention and rendered the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention, instruct them to standby, and everyone would then render the greeting of the day.

Person who sees the Chief: "Attention on deck! Standby!"
Entire group: "Good morning, Chief!"
Chief: "Carry on."
Entire group: "Carry on, aye, Chief! Good afternoon, Chief!"

But this is USAF Aux, obviously, not Navy.

YGBSM! Where, oh where, did you come up with this?

I have NEVER seen this in practice past boot camp. EVER! I lived in an active duty household for 48 years, and am related to two Chiefs, one by birth, and the other by marriage. I get onto a Navy base at least once a month, and have yet to see anything like this going on.

Daily life in the Corps.  At least in the grunts. We didn't do it for NCOs.  But you stood for the 1st Sgt or the Sgt Maj

[Fubar]

Looks like NHQ has a new manual for this stuff:

http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/?capm_362203&show=entry&blogID=1675

[TheSkyHornet]

For Navy---
When an officer came around, stand at attention and render the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention and then everyone would render the greeting of the day. It was never an excuse not to know who (male or female) came on deck because you're supposed to be maintaining constant situation awareness.

Person who sees the officer: "Attention on deck.
Entire group: "Good morning, Sir."

When an NCO (specifically in regard to a Chief or higher) came around, you stood at attention and rendered the greeting of the day. If in a group, you'd call the group to attention, instruct them to standby, and everyone would then render the greeting of the day.

Person who sees the Chief: "Attention on deck! Standby!"
Entire group: "Good morning, Chief!"
Chief: "Carry on."
Entire group: "Carry on, aye, Chief! Good afternoon, Chief!"

But this is USAF Aux, obviously, not Navy.

YGBSM! Where, oh where, did you come up with this?

I have NEVER seen this in practice past boot camp. EVER! I lived in an active duty household for 48 years, and am related to two Chiefs, one by birth, and the other by marriage. I get onto a Navy base at least once a month, and have yet to see anything like this going on.

OTC Newport. Training base. Our staff were all rotated out of training country, and we were constantly in interaction with recruits so we had to maintain our bearing in the office. Totally unlocked around base, aside from general courtesies, but anywhere indoors in any building (aside from chow hall and medical) and we had to stay focused. I guess we were a bad influence  Anyone Chief or higher got recognized this way, and if the Master Chief found out you didn't, you became Major Butt Chew. You'd get those guys who had been around for a while with their feet up on the desk. Chaplain (LT) would walk by all smiley fully knowing Master Chief was coming around behind him with vengeance. In fact, we had a sign on post that said "You are now entering/leaving training country." Whenever we were "in country" in uniform we had to wear a badge to distinguish us from the training classes because sometimes instructors would get on your case about something before realizing you weren't one of their recruits.

Daily life in the Corps.  At least in the grunts. We didn't do it for NCOs.  But you stood for the 1st Sgt or the Sgt Maj

We had a lot of Corps in our building on the adjacent P-way: Paralegal school, not to mention the OCS DIs are Marine Corps. Probably added to it because they were in the younger Marines were in their training AO as well.

It's amazing how much gets passed down by lore alone. I remember the first time I went o an NCOS, there were entire printed regulations copies available, and cadets were encouraged to throw a Bachelor of Science flag when someone started mixing in Marine, Army, Navy, Full Metal Jacket, or Top Gun knowledge base info that was the standard in their squadron. Of course, even then, the printed regs were out of date and self-contradicting in places, but at least if someone just made something up, you had a basis to consult authoritative documents.

Noted. As said before, this is USAF Aux, not Navy, Army, Corps, Coasties, or even Air Force active duty.

There's a lot of "Top Gun" knowledge in CAP, and so much of it comes from people reading on the internet and watching movies. Even the senior members stand around and reminisce at meetings while quoting movies. I have seen seniors who instruct cadets on courtesies totally separate from CAP protocols. It's very common. Then you have the cadets who share those methods and not only do they get passed down (while being totally inaccurate from what CAP mandates) but they get garbled on the way out the door to be completely made up nonsense.

How many cadets don't salute? How many officers correct them? How many officers didn't know the cadet was supposed to or wasn't supposed to salute?

Squadron SOPs are one thing. But way too many people, in significant leadership and/or training roles, do not know CAP protocols. They don't read the manuals, and if they do, they don't understand what they're reading. Over time, you end up with nobody in the unit knowing what's fact from fiction.

Reminisce, and keep the memories memories. Even if you read CAPP 151 and think "this is ridiculous," you have to follow CAPP 151. And too many people in CAP don't follow the regs.