Calling the room to attention to attention (or parade rest) for cadets.

[777Pilot]

Ok so let me start out by saying that I'm fairly new to the forums, so I hope  is in the right place. I am currently a Chief Master Sergeant only two months from my Mitchell, but I am the Cadet Commander at a fairly small squadron. I understand that I'm a little under ranking to be Cadet Commander so please don't bash that I am "under qualified".    With that said as part of being Cadet Commander I want to revamp customs and courtesies. (We've been lacking)  So my question is if there is a sponsor or an adult (that is not a member) in the room do you call the room to attention for officers (or parade rest for NCOs), or do the adults still count as normal senior members, and you don't call the room to parade rest or attention.  I hope this makes sense! Thanks! -777Pilot

[NIN]

Ok so let me start out by saying that I'm fairly new to the forums, so I hope  is in the right place. I am currently a Chief Master Sergeant only two months from my Mitchell, but I am the Cadet Commander at a fairly small squadron. I understand that I'm a little under ranking to be Cadet Commander so please don't bash that I am "under qualified".    With that said as part of being Cadet Commander I want to revamp customs and courtesies. (We've been lacking)  So my question is if there is a sponsor or an adult (that is not a member) in the room do you call the room to attention for officers (or parade rest for NCOs), or do the adults still count as normal senior members, and you don't call the room to parade rest or attention.  I hope this makes sense! Thanks! -777Pilot

Have you reviewed CAP Pamphlet 151?

If not: here.

[NIN]

BTW, a slightly more amplified reply before you go saying "Man, I ask a question and the darn senior members just reply with a link to a pamphlet.."



a) You say you want to "revamp" customs and courtesies.  OK, based on your overall query, I suspect what you really mean is "I want to be sure we're all doing things the way we're supposed to be doing them" not "I want to re-do everything in a completely different style or method." 

My point in linking to the CAPP 151 is that all too often, CAP's customs & courtesies are learned thru major amounts of "hand me down" and very little actual guidance that conforms to anything that is actually written(more on that later).  We actually have guidance in the 151 on many of those things. But remember, too, that "customs" are often things that are not fully codified in written procedures.  They are specific to a unit, etc. 

Example: It is "customary" for Air Force officers to wear just their badges and no ribbons on their blue shirt.  You won't find that written down anyplace, and it surely is not found in the AF's uniform instruction, but it is a "custom" nonetheless.   Like a tribal thing. 

Another example found widely across CAP is that units that hold formation indoors usually do so with their headgear on, even though everybody knows you''re not supposed to wear headgear indoors (even the military does that, BTW).

Anyway, so my purpose for linking to the 151 was to say "OK, look here. Are the customs and courtesies you find here in this pamphlet what you are using in your unit on a weekly basis, or are you doing something *completely different*? And if its *completely different*,  then perhaps what you mean by 'revamp' is really 'get back to the way we're supposed to do things'."

2) Adults who are not senior members are just that: not senior members. You answered your own question there, sorta.   

But more to the point, that kind of thing is very situational.  If you've got a senior member 2nd Lt teaching a class on something, and a Major walks in the room, do you call the room to attention? No. You're interrupting a class. (example: I was an enlisted soldier in the Army. When in AIT and in a class taught by an E-6 SSG, when the E-7 SFC senior instructor stepped into the back of the room, we didn't all pop to parade rest just cuz this dude showed up. We were in a class. It was the SSG's class. The SSG was in charge.  Kind of like formation: When you're in a formation, and an officer approaches, do you just randomly come to attention and salute? No, the person in charge does. Same idea there)

However, if you're all just milling about smoking and joking, and one of your unit CSMs (which is what I assume you mean by "sponsor") is sitting in the room and a Captain walks in, its appropriate to bring the room to attention, generally.  Is the CSM just there for supervision, is the CSM actually *doing* anything?  If its a boatload of enlisted cadets and a C/CMSgt walks in, does the CSM's presence "outrank" the C/CMSgt?  Depends on whats going on. My general slant might be that very likely CSM Bagodonuts is there for more or less CPP-ish supervisory purposes and he/she wants little or nothing to do with your 'hopping up and down stuff'.  So drive on with your bad parade-rest self!

But remember this: its situational. Situational Awareness is a key cadet trait.  It doesn't help for "helpful" cadet NCOs to be blindly screaming "ROOM ATTENTION!" when your deputy commander for cadets wants to sit in the back of the room and watch C/SSgt Smithers give a class.  You gotta "know the rules."

[Spam]

NIN, you (as usual) have some great inputs.

Question though:  my impression was always that the parade rest for NCOs was strictly an Army thing, per FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions. I've never known that to be written anywhere for CAP. True?

Sort of like "hitting the wall" every time an officer walks through, or the "by your leave", or the "no hands in pockets", this seems like something that I'd be careful about endorsing as sacred. I'd prefer as a unit commander to have my Chiefs focus on the core issues, and skip the unwritten trappings until the unit was firing on all cylinders.

Thanks in advance, if you have any thoughts on the unwritten parade rest thing,
Spam

[Garibaldi]

In all my time in CAP and the brief stint in the army, we've never, not once ever, gone to parade rest when addressing NCOs. It's an army thing. Not sure about Marines or Navy.

[coudano]

"standby" (parade rest) is a thing with NCO's in the USAF, specifically in closed training environments like tech school.
that's the first and last place i've seen it though

[Holding Pattern]

You know, the entire time I was a cadet... I don't think I ever actually saw a manual or pamphlet?

As a SM, I am forever grateful for the existence of the internet and electronic regulations anyone can easily acquire.

[NIN]

You know, the entire time I was a cadet... I don't think I ever actually saw a manual or pamphlet?

Please find your former squadron commander and kill him.

He or she was part of the problem that perpetuates today with this junk.

[NIN]

NIN, you (as usual) have some great inputs.

Question though:  my impression was always that the parade rest for NCOs was strictly an Army thing, per FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions. I've never known that to be written anywhere for CAP. True?

Sort of like "hitting the wall" every time an officer walks through, or the "by your leave", or the "no hands in pockets", this seems like something that I'd be careful about endorsing as sacred. I'd prefer as a unit commander to have my Chiefs focus on the core issues, and skip the unwritten trappings until the unit was firing on all cylinders.

Thanks in advance, if you have any thoughts on the unwritten parade rest thing,
Spam

Eh, I dunno. The parade rest thing was definitely an Army thing. I don't really recall it being a tremendously hardcore thing as a cadet.  We definitely stood at attention for officers, though.

And I since I'm an officer, I don't have a burning need to (personally) reinforce anything but "You better stand at attention" around me (and even then, I'm pretty good about putting people at ease as long as they're following the rules.   Standing at parade rest for NCOs?  Hey: is it in the CAPP 151 I just linked to? 

Do what you're supposed to do, show me that you know the rules and have respect for them (and by extension, me), then I'm going to tell you to relax pretty quickly so we can get on with things.

Come lolly-gagging up to me with your hands in your pockets and acting like we're chums from back on the block and, well, you're going to have a very unhappy time.

(BTW, here's 1989's CAPP 151: http://www.aurorasquadron65.org/docs/CAPP_151_Standards_Customs_and_Courtesies.pdf for comparison)

[MSG Mac]

I think Cadets And Senior Members should be directed to the Regs when a question like this is asked. Too many members are not aware of where to look and rely on hand me down information that is no longer current, or my favorite "We've done it this way for years" so it must be right.

[arajca]

You know, the entire time I was a cadet... I don't think I ever actually saw a manual or pamphlet?

Please find your former squadron commander and kill him.

He or she was part of the problem that perpetuates today with this junk.

Considering that many years ago a unit may have 1 manual set that was about 3' tall, it's not surprising a cadet would not have seen it. The only books I saw as a cadet were the LL, AE, and the manuals I needed for the SDAs. I never saw the WHOLE set.

Until the last few years, units had to actively designate the national, region, and/or wing publications web pages as their official reg set. Some did, some didn't. At least until they got gigged on a drug-free root canal SUI for not having an official reg set, or having one that was out of date by years.

[LSThiker]

or the "no hands in pockets",

This is actually in the regs:

When in uniform the following actions are prohibited while walking or in a formation.
2.12.3.1. Do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item.

The standing at parade-rest is an Army thing.  The myth within CAP somewhat relates (although I know it dates much further back) to a passage in the old LL books.  That was, for C/MSgt (before the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt), as a Goddard recipient, you were afforded similar courtesies to a cadet officer.  Unfortunately, I do not have a copy with me or I would type what it said exactly.

I think more people need to review CAPP 151 as well.  Constantly do I see people saluting in Golf/Polo shirts and the Blazer uniform combinations, which is specifically exempted.   

[Garibaldi]

or the "no hands in pockets",

This is actually in the regs:

When in uniform the following actions are prohibited while walking or in a formation.
2.12.3.1. Do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item.

The standing at parade-rest is an Army thing.  The myth within CAP somewhat relates (although I know it dates much further back) to a passage in the old LL books.  That was, for C/MSgt (before the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt), as a Goddard recipient, you were afforded similar courtesies to a cadet officer.  Unfortunately, I do not have a copy with me or I would type what it said exactly.

I think more people need to review CAPP 151 as well.  Constantly do I see people saluting in Golf/Polo shirts and the Blazer uniform combinations, which is specifically exempted.

I've had people ask if we salute anyone in polo shirts. I have always told them no. It is a casual, non-uniform uniform. If someone wants a salute, wear a uniform that requires one. I actually had someone ask where it says, and it actually says in a couple of places. I found it in the first volume of the lead lab manual, and in the specified pub.

[NIN]

There is a "halo effect" on the people who taught us things.  We don't want to ever believe that the people who taught us may have steered us wrong. 

That leads to us doing things like never, ever looking critically at what we were taught thru the lens of "am I doing this right?"  Because you just know that you were taught right, so yeah, of course you're doing it right!

One of my favorite examples is watching cadets give the "column of files" command while practicing D&C.  49 times out of 50, they're doing it wrong.  Why? Because they learned it at encampment where their flight sergeant, who also learned it wrong, spent 7 days reinforcing the wrong method to them, over and over and over.  And they come back to their unit and continue to do it wrong. Not because they intend to do it wrong, but they were taught wrong and they're also taught "Trust your leaders" so they're not going to question it.  And its pretty obvious when it happens.

This generally stems from people teaching things not from a prepared lesson plan or using the manual as a reference, but instead "just winging it" based on their expertise.  If they were actually *preparing* for D&C training, reviewing the command in the manual, the steps, the teaching methodology, etc, instead of just marching around in circles and calling it D&C, it would be a different matter.

About a million years ago now (long enough that it matters.. I was substantially younger than I am now), my good friend Dan French and I were sitting at my house working on the manual for the group level Basic Cadet Training program we were about to kick off.  As was the thing at the time, we were regurgitating some D&C info into this manual (much like the old 50-3 regurgitated D&C into the Volume 1), and we got to the section on At Ease.

I was back from active duty, but Dan hadn't yet gone in the Air Guard.

I typed "At the command 'AT EASE,' the right foot is kept in place.  Silence is required but motion is permitted." and hit ENTER

Dan says "You forgot about the position of the hands."

"What?"

"The hands, man. You know, how your hands behind you, on the belt, when you're At Ease?"

"Uh, Dan, your hands don't go anywhere when you're standing At Ease."

"Naw, man, they go back here" (He demonstrates) "just like this!"

"No, Dan they don't. Your hands can go anywhere, they're not required to go behind your back.  All you're required to do is be quiet. You can move around."

"What? That's not right!  Your hands go behind your back!"

I opened up the 50-3 and flipped to the page that taught the rest positions.

"See here," I said. ""At the command "AT EASE," the right foot is kept in place. Silence is required but motion is permitted"."

"What? Let me see that!" He read it.  "Thats crap man! The book is wrong!"

"Wait, what? The book is wrong?"

We very nearly had a fist fight at my house in front of my computer over this issue.

Dan had been taught a very specific way (as had I as a cadet)  to stand "At Ease."  You moved your left foot 12 inches to the left of your right foot, and your hands went behind you, like parade rest, but the distinction was that your hands are up at your beltline.  You could move around, but only in a very limited way.

Unfortunately. the way we'd been taught as cadets was *wrong*.   I learned the "right" way to do a lot of commands from the Army (and the "Army" way too!) and later spent a lot of time looking stuff up and going "Oh, wow, thats the way that command is really supposed to be done!"

(great example: Flanks from the halt.  "Forward by a right flank" is NOT the correct command...<GRIN>)

Dan came back from Lackland later that year a convert to the "Silence is required, motion is permitted" camp.

[NIN]

The standing at parade-rest is an Army thing.  The myth within CAP somewhat relates (although I know it dates much further back) to a passage in the old LL books.  That was, for C/MSgt (before the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt), as a Goddard recipient, you were afforded similar courtesies to a cadet officer.  Unfortunately, I do not have a copy with me or I would type what it said exactly.

Here ya go: http://www.scribd.com/doc/145306417/1981-CAPM-50-3-Civil-Air-Patrol-Leadership-Laboratory-Volume-1

(hint: you wont' find it.. I'm about 90% sure it didn't exist..)

[Tim Day]

I've had people ask if we salute anyone in polo shirts. I have always told them no. It is a casual, non-uniform uniform. If someone wants a salute, wear a uniform that requires one. I actually had someone ask where it says, and it actually says in a couple of places. I found it in the first volume of the lead lab manual, and in the specified pub.

Here's where CAPP 151 can help us.

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

Members in uniform should render salutes to members not in uniform (or in a polo) who are senior in grade.

[LSThiker]

I've had people ask if we salute anyone in polo shirts. I have always told them no. It is a casual, non-uniform uniform. If someone wants a salute, wear a uniform that requires one. I actually had someone ask where it says, and it actually says in a couple of places. I found it in the first volume of the lead lab manual, and in the specified pub.

Here's where CAPP 151 can help us.

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

Members in uniform should render salutes to members not in uniform (or in a polo) who are senior in grade.

Unless specifically stated otherwise:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all
uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer)

So a cadet would salute a SM in polo, but the SM would not return the salute.  A SM in polo meets another SM in higher grade, but the SM in polo would not salute. 

[THRAWN]

I've had people ask if we salute anyone in polo shirts. I have always told them no. It is a casual, non-uniform uniform. If someone wants a salute, wear a uniform that requires one. I actually had someone ask where it says, and it actually says in a couple of places. I found it in the first volume of the lead lab manual, and in the specified pub.

Here's where CAPP 151 can help us.

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of
what the officer is wearing. For example, uniformed cadets salute their
squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In
such instances, the commander typically would verbally acknowledge
the salute, but not return it.

Members in uniform should render salutes to members not in uniform (or in a polo) who are senior in grade.

Pretty much the way I remember it.

If it moves, salute it. If it doesn't move, move it. If you can't move it, paint it.

[LSThiker]

The standing at parade-rest is an Army thing.  The myth within CAP somewhat relates (although I know it dates much further back) to a passage in the old LL books.  That was, for C/MSgt (before the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt), as a Goddard recipient, you were afforded similar courtesies to a cadet officer.  Unfortunately, I do not have a copy with me or I would type what it said exactly.

Here ya go: http://www.scribd.com/doc/145306417/1981-CAPM-50-3-Civil-Air-Patrol-Leadership-Laboratory-Volume-1

(hint: you wont' find it.. I'm about 90% sure it didn't exist..)

Sorry, wrong one.  It was the Leadership: 2000 and Beyond from the late 90s.  The books used just before CAPR 52-16 came out and it was the CAPM 50-16.

[Tim Day]

So a cadet would salute a SM in polo, but the SM would not return the salute.  A SM in polo meets another SM in higher grade, but the SM in polo would not salute.

It's appropriate, when not in uniform, to acknowledge a salute from someone in uniform with a non-salute equivalent courtesy like a nod, wave, greeting, or "carry on".

When I am in uniform and I recognize a Colonel in a polo or civilian clothes, I'll salute, but more like a "hand salute" than a "present arms". In other words, I raise my hand and salute, greet the Colonel, and drop my hand without waiting for the Colonel to figure out what to do next (I want to recognize the senior grade without causing any awkwardness).