Honorable Service Award

[James Shaw]

Before you read this post. I am simply putting an idea out there that has been proposed before. This proposal was made by our own Andrew Rajca. In my personal opinion this was a great idea and an honorable design thought. I have had this on my computer for a while. It was sent to me over a year ago but it is still fitting no matter the time. I have decided to post it because of some of the recent posts I have seen. This would be a good way for those who have served in the AD or RES to show that and still be in just about any CAP uniform. Thoughts and feedback welcome.

                                                              ********ORIGINAL PROPOSAL*********


                                                          Proposal for an Honorable Military Service Award


To help recognize the many veterans serving in CAP, I propose CAP create an Honorable Military Service Award. This award would consist of a red, white, and blue ribbon (Vanguard unit number 7846800, ribbon unit 3607) with three levels. A CAP member currently serving would wear the basic ribbon with no device. A CAP member who has been honorably discharged and is no longer serving would wear the ribbon with a silver star, and a CAP member who has retired from the military would wear the ribbon with a gold star. There would also be a miniature medal to accompany this ribbon. Members who have served in multiple services would only wear one ribbon. Military service is considered to be enlisted or officer service in the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, or their Reserve or National Guard components. Service in the US Coast Guard would also qualify.

Wear policy for this award would allow veterans to wear it in lieu of their military awards on the AF uniforms, meaning they would wear either their military ribbons or the CAP HMSA, but not both. They could wear it on the CAP uniforms, since military ribbons are prohibited on these uniforms. The ribbon would be worn above the Commander's Commendation and below the Meritorious Service Medal.

The requirement for this award would be either a military id card for currently serving members or a DD214 for discharged and retired members. The award would be approved at the unit level.

The heraldry for the ribbon is the colors represent the American flag, under which all American military personnel service. The "Ruptured Duck" on the coin of the medal is a historic symbol of honorable military service dating back to World War II. The seven sides represent the branches for which service qualifies – Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve, and National Guard.

CAPHISTORIAN*** I would also include NOAA and PHS....my opinion only.

[N Harmon]

So this is a CAP award for service not in CAP?

[capchiro]

I like it and think it would be a great way to recognize the veterans that have served.  Thank you and keep up the great work you are doing.

[James Shaw]

I like it and think it would be a great way to recognize the veterans that have served.  Thank you and keep up the great work you are doing.

I appreciate the sentiment but I did not have anything to do with this it was a member Andrew Rajca. Cant take credit for something I didn't do.

[arajca]

So this is a CAP award for service not in CAP?

Correct.

[Eclipse]

It should come after the comm-comm as do all service decorations.  Its not an award for exemplary performance, etc., simply acknowledgment of some other duty, and its not a military ribbon per se.

It could be the top of the PD rows.

[arajca]

I chose the precedence for a couple of reasons.
1. Military awards have a higher precedence than all CAP awards - including the SMV.
2. I believe it should be higher than the common CAP ribbons/awards.
3. To follow the service award arguement would be to place it below the PD awards, and, it could be argued based on the War Time Service Award, at the bottom of the precedence order.

Again, this is merely my opinion. Caphistorian argued that it should be below all the PD awards.

PS. NOAA and PHS are uniformed services, not military services.

[cnitas]

I like the idea.  Many other organizations have honorable military service awards. 

My only misgiving is that it should be at the bottom of the stack because it is for service outside of CAP.

[arajca]

I like the idea.  Many other organizations have honorable military service awards. 

My only misgiving is that it should be at the bottom of the stack because it is for service outside of CAP.

The same argument could be made for all military awards.

[cnitas]

On a CAP corp uniform, military ribbons are not allowed. 

I am not convinced military awards should be allowed mixed with CAP awards in the first place on any uniform.

I do like the overall concept of a 'military service ribbon'. 

[Always Ready]

I love the idea! This allows our members to be recognized for their military service without having to deal with people throwing a fit over them wearing military ribbons and/or badges. Great compromise!

For those who have served in multiple services, why not add an additional star? For example, Lt Col X retired from the AF, but was also honorably discharged from the Navy. Lt Col X could wear a gold star to represent his service in the AF and wear a silver star next to the gold star for his Naval service. It wouldn't look gawdy and still would recognize their services to our country.

[Ned]

The problem will come with the AF-style uniforms, of course.

For those uniforms, the award would be redundant if the member chooses to wear any of their military awards.  (And every former military member has at least some.)

Unless the member chooses to wear this award in lieu of their military ribbons, it is just another piece of bling on the USAF-style uniforms.

What are the odds that a significant number of members currently wearing military ribbons on their AF-style uniforms will take them all off?

I have my guess.

What do you think?

(And, yes, I understand that this proposal will allow members to wear a military service designator on the corporate uniforms, which is not currently possible.  That is indeed a Good Thing, but it comes at a price -- more arguably useless bling on the AF style uniforms.  Do we want to pay that price?)

Unless the proposal is tied with a change that would forbid military ribbons on the AF-style uniform.  Just imagine the uproar.

[Hawk200]

An interesting idea. Not sure if I like it or not. On the CSU, I guess it would be better than nothing, but there is still the issue of the NLO's remarks. Would he consider a decoration that denotes military service inappropriate? I'd be interested on that answer.

It seems like it reduces all of a veteran's service to a single item. Doesn't tell how they served, only that they did. Maybe at least different ones for different branches. Serving in the Air Force is different than the Army (I've been both), so a single item doesn't quite cover it.

I could agree with a stipulation of "Military awards or Honorable Service award".

[N Harmon]

I don't think I would support this. Not because I don't think veterans should be honored, because I really do. I just think CAP awards should be for service in the CAP. Not only that, I think it could do some harm. Say for example  person A spends 3 years as a uniformed member of NOAA and person B spends 30 years as a uniformed member of CBP. You're going to make it CAP policy that person A rates an "Honorable service award" and person B doesn't? No matter where you draw the line, somebody is going to get left out.

I also think that if this were to come to pass, there would be less justification for getting military awards approved on corporate uniforms. Which is what I really think should happen as there is no good reason for prohibiting them.

I understand I am in the minority here, but nonetheless that is my opinion.

[arajca]

Actually, in your scenario, neither would receive the award. It's for MILITARY service, not uniformed. NOAA is NOT a military service. Nor is CBP.

I wrote the policy to allow for either military awards or the honorable service award on the AF style uniforms, not both. As for getting approval for wearing military awards on the corporate uniforms, I don't see CAP taking the iniative to request authorization. Not to be disheartening about it, but I really don't see it happening.

As for the NLO's opinion, I don't give a rat's behind.

As for the difference in the services, I considered it, but the award would get too confusing, unless a separate award were to be used for each service. Not something I am willing to put forth.

[Always Ready]

+1 for one award for military service not multiple. We don't need multiple ribbons representing the same thing...military service.

As far as people whining complaining about their service to another entity not being recognized but military service being recognized by this award, our organization doesn't recognize your service in the same way that our organization recognizes military service. We have the option to wear military ribbons on AF style uniforms, but on no CAP uniform can you wear ribbons from other entities (i.e. firefighters, police, border patrol, etc.). If you would like such recognition, please send your proposal up the chain of command. This is about the possibility of reducing bling by replacing multiple, optional military service ribbons with a single, optional award to recognize those who served without the heated debate of military bling on CAP uniforms. This way the AF Auxilary still sticks to its roots of recognizing military service, but it also meets the terms of those who feel wearing military ribbons, badges, etc. on our uniforms as inappropriate.

To the NLO (incase this person is reading this): This award has nothing to do with combat, it has to do with honoring the service of those who serve us the most!

</rant>

[N Harmon]

It's for MILITARY service, not uniformed.

Why not call it a "Military Service Award"?

[winterg]

The proposed title is for an "Honorable Military Service Award" as stated in the first post.

[RiverAux]

I would oppose this on the same grounds I oppose giving Medals of Valor or Lifesaving ribbons to CAP members for actions performed while not on CAP duty -- CAP ribbons should recognize CAP actions only. 

[jb512]

I say go for it.  If a military member is unable or chooses not to wear the AF uniform then that would be a good, unoffensive (to those people) way to show their service. 

We're an auxiliary to a military branch so it makes sense.

[tarheel gumby]

Works for me

[jb512]

Well I forgot to add that I am a proponent for getting military ribbons and badges approved for wear on the white shirt as an option as well.  I'll be wearing it someday long down the road and I'll want to bring mine with me too.

[ol'fido]

Well I forgot to add that I am a proponent for getting military ribbons and badges approved for wear on the white shirt as an option as well.  I'll be wearing it someday long down the road and I'll want to bring mine with me too.

Halleluah, brother! :clap: :clap:

[Hawk200]

I would oppose this on the same grounds I oppose giving Medals of Valor or Lifesaving ribbons to CAP members for actions performed while not on CAP duty -- CAP ribbons should recognize CAP actions only. 

Why? There are military awards that recognize actions while not on duty. The decs mentioned are awarded in the same manner.

Second, it is unlikely that anyone would ever get those decorations if limited to "CAP time". Either that, or things would be artificially inflated to justify them.

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't favor military ribbons for actions taken for something not related to duty either. 

By definition any organization is a separate entity and it just makes no sense to give awards for actions taken outside of the context of the organization giving the award.  Once you start down that slippery slope its hard to stop. 

[Hawk200]

I wouldn't favor military ribbons for actions taken for something not related to duty either. 

By definition any organization is a separate entity and it just makes no sense to give awards for actions taken outside of the context of the organization giving the award.  Once you start down that slippery slope its hard to stop. 

Say what? That makes no sense. Off duty actions don't count? When in the Air Force, a lot of off duty actions were accounted for on my performance report. It was the "whole person" concept. One of my decorations is solely for volunteer service outside my normal duties. You telling me that it's worthless? If not, what specifically are you saying?

The military wants to give decs for off duty stuff. It shows that we are still part of our communities, and not a microcosm. Limiting to on duty only is essentially blowing off everything else, giving the impression that only the military counts. Bad way to go when you want the support of the public. How many times have you seen something on the news that a military member did, and a comment is made that "that person should get a medal"?

Out of curiousity, how many decs have you recieved for actions "outside" your duties? Would you have the conviction to decline any referencing something you didn't do at work?

[jb512]

^ +1

[TankerT]

As a person who has served, I really don't see a need for this award.

But, as an FYI - Guard members don't get a DD214 when they separate.  They get an NGB 22. 

So, by not including that, you're eliminating a large number of folks that receive an honorable discharge.

That being said, CAP awards tend to recognize CAP achievement and service.  I personally don't care for this suggestion, as it creates the "haves" and the "have nots" in a sense.  Sure, we have it in the blues category, but, why further it?

[PaulR]

I think that it is a GREAT idea, if the veteran is given the option to either wear the CAP ribbon or their military ribbons. 


Great gesture for those who use the Corporate Uniform. 

A sort of "Hindenburg Cross" award!  Nice concept!

[arajca]

As a person who has served, I really don't see a need for this award.

But, as an FYI - Guard members don't get a DD214 when they separate.  They get an NGB 22. 

So, by not including that, you're eliminating a large number of folks that receive an honorable discharge.

I was not aware of that, but adding it is a minor change. If you read the description, I expressly included National Guard.

That being said, CAP awards tend to recognize CAP achievement and service.  I personally don't care for this suggestion, as it creates the "haves" and the "have nots" in a sense.  Sure, we have it in the blues category, but, why further it?

Every badge, ribbon, wing, etc, creates the "haves" and "have nots". Grade included. Should we ditch all of it?

I think that it is a GREAT idea, if the veteran is given the option to either wear the CAP ribbon or their military ribbons. 


Great gesture for those who use the Corporate Uniform. 

A sort of "Hindenburg Cross" award!  Nice concept!

As written, the veteran makes the decision. They would wear EITHER their military ribbons OR the HMSA, not both.

A caveat, if wear of military awards was to be authorized on the corporate uniforms, I'd happily make this proposal go away.

[RiverAux]

Out of curiousity, how many decs have you recieved for actions "outside" your duties? Would you have the conviction to decline any referencing something you didn't do at work?

None.  I think in the second question you're asking if I would turn down a CAP decoration for something done outside of CAP?  Well, I haven't had that opportunity, but I have done at least one thing in my real job that would probably qualify for a CAP Lifesaving Award and maybe a a Medal of Valor (given the apparent standards they use), but I never brought it to the attention of CAP so that I could get something.  And we've heard more than a few members on this board whose real jobs would probably qualify them for several CAP Lifesaving Awards a week.  Should they put in for them? 

[jb512]

And we've heard more than a few members on this board whose real jobs would probably qualify them for several CAP Lifesaving Awards a week.  Should they put in for them? 

Common sense would answer "no".  Unfortuately people who are involved in professions where they save lives on a regular basis aren't what the spirit of the lifesaving award is about.  It would be an act outside of the norm.

[RiverAux]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

[arajca]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

Where are my chest waders - it's getting deep around here.


CAPHistorian, given the attitudes of some of the members here, I am starting to wish you hadn't brought it up.

I'm through here.

Lock please...

[jb512]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

Again, apply common sense. If a member saves a life outside of a CAP activity under conditions that were not the norm, then CAP has established that we will recognize that member because of the qualities it takes to do that and to show that we appreciate a person of that caliber. We are an auxiliary of a military service so military ribbons and badges have a commonality with our parent organization. We don't perform police or fire duties nor do we practice medicine so those types of awards would not be applicable.

[jb512]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

Where are my chest waders - it's getting deep around here.


CAPHistorian, given the attitudes of some of the members here, I am starting to wish you hadn't brought it up.

I'm through here.

Lock please...

We're with ya.

[Hawk200]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

Decorations aren't necessarily awarded for actions on the behalf of the organization. They're to recognize accomplishments, many of which aren't duty related, or are for going "above and beyond". 

Many people have saved lives because of what they have learned in CAP or the military. You're saying that it shouldn't count, even though that's where they learned the values that led them to their actions.

As to other organizations presenting awards,  if it's relevant to them, then yes, let that organization make the awards.  But if there isn't anything such as that for them, then we should recognize it. If I save a fellow soldiers life in some manner that is considered commendable, and I get an award for it, great. Do I think I should get one in CAP as well? No, I don't, and I would decline any such award submitted.

As far as people who save lives regularly, I think awards would be appropriate if it's "over and above", but not for multiple times that relate directly to their job. EMT's and paramedics are trained to deliver life saving care, so I don't consider an award for just doing the job proper. But a paramedic that braves flames, and risks life or limb to save someone is definitely going above and beyond, and deserves to be recognized publicly for their actions.

Most of what this post started on was recognizing military service, which many people here consider commendable. Which is why they wish to honor those who served and aren't permitted to display their service on an alternate uniform. Why is recognizing that so wrong?

[RiverAux]

Why is recognizing that so wrong?

Its not wrong, just unnecessary.  Those who have served in the military are already recognized for that through special promotions and credit for various schools they have completed.  Isn't that enough? 

[Hawk200]

Those who have served in the military are already recognized for that through special promotions and credit for various schools they have completed. 

So now you're telling me that everyone with military time is getting credit for all their service by promotions and school credit. I can tell you that is not accurate in all cases. If there is even a large majority, I invite you to prove it with verifiable facts. I doubt you can.

[PHall]

Those who have served in the military are already recognized for that through special promotions and credit for various schools they have completed. 

So now you're telling me that everyone with military time is getting credit for all their service by promotions and school credit. I can tell you that is not accurate in all cases. If there is even a large majority, I invite you to prove it with verifiable facts. I doubt you can.

What he said...

[SarDragon]

I spent 21 years on active duty. I don't think there is a single thing I did during that time that I got credit for in CAP. Unless you are an E-7 or above, it's hard to get credit for military accomplishments.

YMMV.

[Cecil DP]

Those who have served in the military are already recognized for that through special promotions and credit for various schools they have completed. 

So now you're telling me that everyone with military time is getting credit for all their service by promotions and school credit. I can tell you that is not accurate in all cases. If there is even a large majority, I invite you to prove it with verifiable facts. I doubt you can.

It's mainly the OP's who get credit for military experience for promotion purposes, Though several enlisted schools are transferable for PME credit

What he said...

[RiverAux]

Another reason for not having this ribbon is that it could violate the general principle that awards should be given for actions not long before the award is presented.  In other words, you don't put in for an award for something that you did 10 years ago.  In this case we would be giving an award for something that someone may have done 40+ years ago, though this would of course vary depending on the age of the CAP member and when they served.

Now, of course every now and again we see stories about someone getting a purple heart that they did not get back when they should have, but those usually involve some sort of paperwork snafu. 

[ColonelJack]

I don't wish to presume to speak for Major Shaw, but ...

This proposal is not really for an award one would earn for completing a training level or accomplishing something excellent.  It's rather a recognition of prior military service that would be authorized to be worn on the CSU.

Nobody would have to wear it if they chose not to do so; it's being offered as an idea, I believe, so that those who have served -- or are serving -- can be recognized as such on the corporate uniforms, since military ribbons and badges are (for some silly reason) a no-no.

Do I have that right, Major?

Jack

[D2SK]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

After considerable analysis, I've determined that you blow a lot of hot air.

Here's an example of a Army enlisted person receiving a military award for his work as a volunteer firefighter.

http://www.agd.state.tx.us/36id/Content/news/36IDNews/stories/SoldiersMedal/SoldiersMedal.htm

I'm sure that just tears your guts up.

[davedove]

The notion of not giving awards for actions done while not on duty isn't born out by the services.  Now, a person may think that is inappropriate, but the different services do it.  I can't speak for all of them, but the Army gives medals for soldiers performing actions while off duty, they have awards for civilians performing actions while outside of work, and they even have decorations for people outside the Army family performing actions.

[jb512]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

After considerable analysis, I've determined that you blow a lot of hot air.

Here's an example of a Army enlisted person receiving a military award for his work as a volunteer firefighter.

http://www.agd.state.tx.us/36id/Content/news/36IDNews/stories/SoldiersMedal/SoldiersMedal.htm

I'm sure that just tears your guts up.

Perfect example. 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like some people in CAP are resentful or indifferent to CAP members with military service.  I always thought CAP should embrace the military and "dual" members since that's our closest tie, but it doesn't seem to be the case.  I don't understand that.

[Gunner C]

I'm sure that just tears your guts up.

That, Buzz, was uncalled for.  "At ease"; take a break.

[RiverAux]

This proposal is not really for an award one would earn for completing a training level or accomplishing something excellent.  It's rather a recognition of prior military service that would be authorized to be worn on the CSU.

It is recognition in the form of an decoration which is what a ribbon and/or medal are.   

[jb512]

This proposal is not really for an award one would earn for completing a training level or accomplishing something excellent.  It's rather a recognition of prior military service that would be authorized to be worn on the CSU.

It is recognition in the form of an decoration which is what a ribbon and/or medal are.   

Ok, so award me, recognize me, or decorate me.  Whichever term you choose to use, the meaning behind this ribbon is not much different than many lower military awards which is the point they're all trying to make.

[ol'fido]

I attend my weekly meetings and various other CAP activities, but I am a member of CAP 24/7. So is everyone who pays their dues. If somenone does something outside of their normal CAP duties, in uniform or out, that reflects the good character and ideals of CAP, then they should be recognized for it. In fact, there's a line like that in many of the medal citations I have read.

We are a CIVILIAN but UNIFORMED auxilliary of a military service, the United States Air Force. We are not an auxilliary of the police, fire, or EMS services honorable and dedicated as they may be. Our uniforms and customs/courtesies are rooted not just in regulations, but in traditions of the service.

I believe we must honor those traditions as we debate our uniform changes and regulations. We don't have to get stuck in the past but we should appreciate it and the men who forged those traditions...Our VETERANS.

So put me down as for this proposal.

[James Shaw]

Common sense would say that an organization gives awards to its members for activities the members perform on behalf of that organization and if that member belongs to other groups, let them worry about giving that person awards for stuff they do for them.

Heck, if I don't even have to be on CAP time to earn a CAP ribbon, there isn't really any reason to restrict what ribbons CAP members can wear to ones awarded by military services (or authorized by them).  Why not let police and firefighters wear their ribbons on CAP uniform?  Heck, lets make a Police Service ribbon for wear on the CAP uniform.  Are you a doctor?  Lets have a Medical Service ribbon. 

Where are my chest waders - it's getting deep around here.


CAPHistorian, given the attitudes of some of the members here, I am starting to wish you hadn't brought it up.

I'm through here.

Lock please...

So am I!

[RickFranz]

I for one, am one of those folks that for the for seeable future will only be able to wear the Corp. Uniform.  It would be nice to be recognized for my past service.  

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of folks that will not even wear a CAP ribbon on the AF style uniform because they have so many ribbons from there active duty "Glory Days".  

Maybe the way to handle this is to say here is your Honorable Service ribbon to put on your Civil Air Patrol uniform.  Thank you for your service, but please wear what you earn here in this organization on our uniform and put the active duty awards on your active duty uniform or in a nice shadow box.

[O-Rex]

The idea has merit.

If this goes through, I'd think that it would be for ribbon sets worn on the corp uniforms ONLY  or if worn on the AF style uniform it could be worn in lieu of mil awards, but not both.  If the purpose is to show mil service, IMHO wearing the proposed ribbon plus mil awards would be double-dipping.

[jimmydeanno]

The idea has merit.

If this goes through, I'd think that it would be for ribbon sets worn on the corp uniforms ONLY  or if worn on the AF style uniform it could be worn in lieu of mil awards, but not both.  If the purpose is to show mil service, IMHO wearing the proposed ribbon plus mil awards would be double-dipping.

That's what the proposal says...

Wear policy for this award would allow veterans to wear it in lieu of their military awards on the AF uniforms, meaning they would wear either their military ribbons or the CAP HMSA, but not both.

[PORed]

I agree that there a few people here forget that they are a part of USAF Aux and forget the USAF is part of the military. As for what ribbons, medals and badges can be worn CAP falls under USAF regulations not what the NLO thinks or any member here thinks. Back to the Honorable Service Award I think that it is a great idea and would be a great way for prior service enlisted and officers to show their military service. I think we forget that it is easy for NCO's to show their service with wearing their Stripes, but what of E-2 - E-4 and the Officer ranks. This fills in that gap and also the NCOs that wear CAP officer rank as opposed to enlisted rank.

[PaulR]

I attend my weekly meetings and various other CAP activities, but I am a member of CAP 24/7. So is everyone who pays their dues. If somenone does something outside of their normal CAP duties, in uniform or out, that reflects the good character and ideals of CAP, then they should be recognized for it. In fact, there's a line like that in many of the medal citations I have read.

We are a CIVILIAN but UNIFORMED auxilliary of a military service, the United States Air Force. We are not an auxilliary of the police, fire, or EMS services honorable and dedicated as they may be. Our uniforms and customs/courtesies are rooted not just in regulations, but in traditions of the service.

I believe we must honor those traditions as we debate our uniform changes and regulations. We don't have to get stuck in the past but we should appreciate it and the men who forged those traditions...Our VETERANS.

So put me down as for this proposal.

I dont think that this point can be said any better!

[cap235629]

I can live with this other than it's order of precedence.  If it is meant to replace military decorations, I feel it should be worn like military decorations, above all other CAP awards

[Always Ready]

I can live with this other than it's order of precedence.  If it is meant to replace military decorations, I feel it should be worn like military decorations, above all other CAP awards

I think replace is the wrong word for it. My brain isn't exactly working so I can't think of a better word at the moment.

The Honorable Military Service Award will replace the military ribbons in the sense you can't wear both at the same time. However, it will not be a direct replacement for the military ribbons. It is a *potential* CAP award for CAP members and is not awarded by a military service; therefore, it is not a military ribbon/award and should not be placed at the top of the CAP order of precedence. The proposal places it exactly where it should go...IMHO

The ribbon would be worn above the Commander's Commendation and below the Meritorious Service Medal.

[swamprat86]

in lieu of

[ol'fido]

I attend my weekly meetings and various other CAP activities, but I am a member of CAP 24/7. So is everyone who pays their dues. If somenone does something outside of their normal CAP duties, in uniform or out, that reflects the good character and ideals of CAP, then they should be recognized for it. In fact, there's a line like that in many of the medal citations I have read.

We are a CIVILIAN but UNIFORMED auxilliary of a military service, the United States Air Force. We are not an auxilliary of the police, fire, or EMS services honorable and dedicated as they may be. Our uniforms and customs/courtesies are rooted not just in regulations, but in traditions of the service.

I believe we must honor those traditions as we debate our uniform changes and regulations. We don't have to get stuck in the past but we should appreciate it and the men who forged those traditions...Our VETERANS.

So put me down as for this proposal.

I dont think that this point can be said any better!

Thank you, sir.

[RiverAux]

Maybe the way to handle this is to say here is your Honorable Service ribbon to put on your Civil Air Patrol uniform.  Thank you for your service, but please wear what you earn here in this organization on our uniform and put the active duty awards on your active duty uniform or in a nice shadow box.

I could get on board for this award if it was a required replacement for all military ribbons.  As proposed originally it would only be an option to wear it and I agree with CAP-USAF's comments in the last NB agenda where he decried having too many optional uniform items since after all, a uniform is supposed to be uniform. 

[jb512]

Maybe the way to handle this is to say here is your Honorable Service ribbon to put on your Civil Air Patrol uniform.  Thank you for your service, but please wear what you earn here in this organization on our uniform and put the active duty awards on your active duty uniform or in a nice shadow box.

I could get on board for this award if it was a required replacement for all military ribbons.  As proposed originally it would only be an option to wear it and I agree with CAP-USAF's comments in the last NB agenda where he decried having too many optional uniform items since after all, a uniform is supposed to be uniform. 

As a military auxiliary I wouldn't want it to be a requirement and I don't think it should be.  The idea is to have it as an option so military members could wear it on uniforms where their military awards are not an option.

[AlphaSigOU]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

[O-Rex]

The idea has merit.

If this goes through, I'd think that it would be for ribbon sets worn on the corp uniforms ONLY  or if worn on the AF style uniform it could be worn in lieu of mil awards, but not both.  If the purpose is to show mil service, IMHO wearing the proposed ribbon plus mil awards would be double-dipping.

That's what the proposal says...

Wear policy for this award would allow veterans to wear it in lieu of their military awards on the AF uniforms, meaning they would wear either their military ribbons or the CAP HMSA, but not both.

That works for a lot of us who go back & forth between corp and USAF style uniforms.

[SarDragon]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

[Hawk200]

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

In a way, sounds kind of lame for the Air Force and Army, two of the branches that CAP generally deals with the most get the smallest indicators. Bronze EGA! Gold anchor! Silver Star? Bronze Star?

I could concur with Bronze EGA. For Navy, I'd go with a bronze anchor. Gold is higher than silver when it comes to attachments. Army: Bronze star as mentioned.

For the Air Force, just to drive home the point that we're Air Force associated, I'd go with a gold frame. It makes the ribbon stand out more, and for Air Force service, I think it ought to. Just an idea. Maybe add a silver star, too, just for the fish.

Personally, I don't see a problem with multiple attachments, I honestly don't see most people getting more than a couple. Even with three and a frame, it wouldn't really be too busy.

[Cecil DP]

Just the ribbon will do. Adding gizmo's for branch, really makes CAP look ridiculous

[SaBeR33]

I wouldn't favor military ribbons for actions taken for something not related to duty either. 

By definition any organization is a separate entity and it just makes no sense to give awards for actions taken outside of the context of the organization giving the award.  Once you start down that slippery slope its hard to stop. 

Say what? That makes no sense. Off duty actions don't count? When in the Air Force, a lot of off duty actions were accounted for on my performance report. It was the "whole person" concept. One of my decorations is solely for volunteer service outside my normal duties. You telling me that it's worthless? If not, what specifically are you saying?

The military wants to give decs for off duty stuff. It shows that we are still part of our communities, and not a microcosm. Limiting to on duty only is essentially blowing off everything else, giving the impression that only the military counts. Bad way to go when you want the support of the public. How many times have you seen something on the news that a military member did, and a comment is made that "that person should get a medal"?

Out of curiousity, how many decs have you recieved for actions "outside" your duties? Would you have the conviction to decline any referencing something you didn't do at work?

I guess RiverAux has never heard of the Airman's Medal: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7769. It has a counterpart in the Soldier's Medal where they're both awarded for acts of heroism not involving combat nor is it allowed for acts done in the performance of the servicemember's duty. So should an Airman who rescues someone from a burning building (an act that garnered a SrA one many years ago http://www.airforcetimes.com/legacy/new/0-292925-615248.php) not count as something that should be recognized by a military service award?

[AlphaSigOU]

Normal silver or bronze star as worn on our ribbons is 3/16"size (I think); the stars I proposed are the large stars worn by Navy/CG as repeat award designators. I'm pretty certain Vanguard might have more distinctive clasps that are not otherwise sown in their catalog to replace the AF/Army proposed designator.

[SaBeR33]

Considering that if you spend a long career in the military you're bound to have a lot of ribbons, and if you add CAP's ribbons to the mix one has a propensity of looking like a banana-republic dictator (to use the old cliche) I personally don't mind a single 'honorable military service award' for the CAP uniform.

Suggestion to add, if it is feasible:

Devices to distinguish branch of service served:

Bronze Eagle, Globe and Anchor - USMC service (Vanguard cat #7643980)
Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)
5/16" Silver Star - USAF service (Vanguard cat #7701800)
5/16" Bronze Star - US Army service (Vanguard cat #7701600)

Only one device denoting branch of service may be worn; if the member has served in more than one service, they can only choose one of the above preferences for display on the ribbon.

Current (active/reserve/National Guard) or past service - no device other than branch of service identifier.
Retired military - small gold 3/16" star worn to wearer's right of branch clasp. If a retired identifier is worn, both the star and the service designator are spaced to present a centered, balanced appearance.

Honorable service defined: separation with a characterization of Honorable or General Under Honorable Conditions. If for multiple service periods, last separation must be under honorable conditions.

My two cents to this thread, before taxes take them all away...

Sounds pretty good to me. It would go well--like another poster mentioned--for those of us who go back and forth between AF-style and Corporate uniforms where military awards cannot be worn; maintaining two sets of ribbons gets expensive.

[PaulR]

Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

I think so too, but PLEASE do not give us Coasties the same emblem as the Navy.  We are completely different branches with a bit of rivalry between us! 

Perhaps a Silver anchor for the Navy and a Gold Anchor for us Coasties!  That would be a compromise. 

[PaulR]

Sounds pretty good to me. It would go well--like another poster mentioned--for those of us who go back and forth between AF-style and Corporate uniforms where military awards cannot be worn; maintaining two sets of ribbons gets expensive.

That would be the wearer's prerogative and dime!

[BGNightfall]

Gold Anchor - USN/USCG service (Vanguard cat #7704000)

That is an OUTSTANDING approach!

I think so too, but PLEASE do not give us Coasties the same emblem as the Navy.  We are completely different branches with a bit of rivalry between us! 

Perhaps a Silver anchor for the Navy and a Gold Anchor for us Coasties!  That would be a compromise. 

Well, while I agree that the Navy shouldn't share an emblem with the Coasties, I would respectfully disagree with your proposal, HM1.

I personally believe the Navy should have the gold anchor!     And what rivalry are you talking about?  :angel:

[PaulR]

Well... since we were the first we should have the Gold! HM1 indeed!! The better 1/10th calls their Corpsmen E6s "HS1"  LOL 

Seriously... I thought that the official Navy colors were Silver and Blue.  Ours are Gold and blue.

[Gunner C]

Let's just have a ribbon - no need for extra bling.  If anyone wants to know which branch you were, they'll ask. 

[Always Ready]

^It will be a good conversation starter 

[cap235629]

BUMP

Has anything ever come of this?  I think that with the redesigns of the CSU going around, this would be an opportune time to add this EXCELLENT idea to the mix

[Short Field]

just when you think something has died a well deserved death.......

[Spike]

The problem will come with the AF-style uniforms, of course.

For those uniforms, the award would be redundant if the member chooses to wear any of their military awards.  (And every former military member has at least some.)

Unless the member chooses to wear this award in lieu of their military ribbons, it is just another piece of bling on the USAF-style uniforms.

What are the odds that a significant number of members currently wearing military ribbons on their AF-style uniforms will take them all off?

I have my guess.

What do you think?

(And, yes, I understand that this proposal will allow members to wear a military service designator on the corporate uniforms, which is not currently possible.  That is indeed a Good Thing, but it comes at a price -- more arguably useless bling on the AF style uniforms.  Do we want to pay that price?)

Unless the proposal is tied with a change that would forbid military ribbons on the AF-style uniform.  Just imagine the uproar.

However, the ribbon can be worn to show if the member is currently serving in or discharged/retired from the service.  We see a military member wearing military ribbons, then this ribbon and we can quickly discern that the member is current or former military.

I like the idea.  I do agree though that it is adding to the mess we already have.  Next people will want ribbons for serving in Americoprs or the Red cross.