Why is Silver Medal of Valor the top award?

[OldSalt]

Hi Folks,

I was just wondering if anyone knows the history behind CAP's current decorations? Not all the service and training ribbons, just our 10 decorations. What got me thinking about it is why our top two decorations are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor - seems to me that (if we're keeping with the Olympic standards) - Gold should be the top.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

[lordmonar]

We don't have a gold medal of valor.

And from a military stand point we only have a bronze star and silver star which the S/BMV are the equivalent to.

[davidsinn]

We don't have a gold medal of valor.

And from a military stand point we only have a bronze star and silver star which the S/BMV are the equivalent to.

The gold medal would be CMOH. That raises the question: Would we be eligible for the CMOH for actions on an AFAM? Because I'd argue that the lost sub-hunters would be the guys in line if so.

[James Shaw]

This is some of the history around the Medal of Valor. This may help answer some of your questions.

The selected and approve designs by CAP and the NEB were re-submitted to the United States Army, Office of the Quartermaster General to be presented for review by the Commission of Fine  Arts. They approve of the Medal and ribbon design.

Minutes, National Board-National Executive Board, 22 April 1960.
The following resolution was unanimously approved: The present Medal of Valor is changed to two types:  the "Silver Medal of Valor", to recognize acts of heroism for which the present Medal of Valor is now awarded; and, the "Bronze Medal of Valor, to recognize act of heroism which do not meet the criteria for the award of the "Silver Medal of Valor".  It was decided as  a cost saving approach,  that CAP rename the present Medal  of Valor and casting it in a silver color  with the accompanying ribbon having the addition of three silver stars. The second type of action could be the awarded using  the present Medal of Valor, and  so renaming it to the "Bronze Medal of Valor", with accompanying ribbon without stars.. It was noted that  Silver stars  are readily available for purchase at a small price. The Colorado Wing Commander Col. Charles F. Howard,  suggested, and was approved, that the Distinguished, Exceptional and Meritorious Service Awards will no longer be awarded for acts of heroism. (AUTHORITY: p. 11, NEB Minutes, 22-23 Apr 1960.)

So to answer the question: it was a cost saving measure when they created seperate medals of valor. Hope this helps.

[Major Lord]

We don't have a gold medal of valor.

And from a military stand point we only have a bronze star and silver star which the S/BMV are the equivalent to.

The gold medal would be CMOH. That raises the question: Would we be eligible for the CMOH for actions on an AFAM? Because I'd argue that the lost sub-hunters would be the guys in line if so.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is no such thing as the "CMOH" (Congressional Medal of Honor) Its is called the "Medal of Honor",  and is awarded by the President in the name of the Congress. It has been awarded to at least one civilian (not lately!) but to even compare it to a CAP award is.......well, lets just say, a little unseemly. It is a thing that is sacred.

Major Lord

[Smithsonia]

The MEDAL OF HONOR has only recently become sacred and indeed it is sacred award. If I asked you which War had the most Medal of Honor Awardees you'd likely say WW1 or WW2. It turns out to be the Indian Wars. Something over 400 awardees and many men received it twice, including Tom Custer - the brother of George - Buffalo Bill got one - and entire numerous units too. Some awardees received it for the Wounded Knee Massacre (2 I think) It was not awarded during the Civil War but was awarded retroactively to Civil War Vets in 1873 (if I remember right). When the Silver and Bronze Stars came along which was later... the MOH was elevated to it's current status. So the award was raised to the current exalted status during WW1. It's exalted status has grown over time and through numerous acts of extreme self sacrifice, courage, and gallantry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor

My point being:
Any bastardization of any of our life-saving awards through raising and lowering standards is a disservice to all those who richly deserve true credit. I've met several Silver Medal of Valor awardees, including the only two time awardee in the History of CAP - Jerry Alsum. All of them deny that they deserved it. All are grateful to have been awarded it. All are humbled by this award. All are proud of their service in the CAP. I can vouch for the members that I have met who received this award... all of them richly deserved it.

[lordmonar]

Actually it was the Civil War that got the most.....and yes an entire unit got them for simply reenlisting.

But to answer the OP's question....generally in the military silver is to top medal and bronze is the lower.

Bronze star vs Silver Star
Bronze Cluster vs Silver Cluster

Why?  Have no clue...except that originally medals were actually made from the material so a gold medal would have cost way too much.

[James Shaw]

Please folks lets not have this argument again. No one has ever compared the MOV to the MOH.

[MIKE]

Still don't understand why we need two classes of Medal of Valor and a Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving.  IMO a CAP Airman's Medal and Commendations and Achievement awards for lesser feats covers it nicely.

[OldSalt]

This is some of the history around the Medal of Valor. This may help answer some of your questions.

The selected and approve designs by CAP and the NEB were re-submitted to the United States Army, Office of the Quartermaster General to be presented for review by the Commission of Fine  Arts. They approve of the Medal and ribbon design.

Minutes, National Board-National Executive Board, 22 April 1960.
The following resolution was unanimously approved: The present Medal of Valor is changed to two types:  the "Silver Medal of Valor", to recognize acts of heroism for which the present Medal of Valor is now awarded; and, the "Bronze Medal of Valor, to recognize act of heroism which do not meet the criteria for the award of the "Silver Medal of Valor".  It was decided as  a cost saving approach,  that CAP rename the present Medal  of Valor and casting it in a silver color  with the accompanying ribbon having the addition of three silver stars. The second type of action could be the awarded using  the present Medal of Valor, and  so renaming it to the "Bronze Medal of Valor", with accompanying ribbon without stars.. It was noted that  Silver stars  are readily available for purchase at a small price. The Colorado Wing Commander Col. Charles F. Howard,  suggested, and was approved, that the Distinguished, Exceptional and Meritorious Service Awards will no longer be awarded for acts of heroism. (AUTHORITY: p. 11, NEB Minutes, 22-23 Apr 1960.)

So to answer the question: it was a cost saving measure when they created seperate medals of valor. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. The record quoted seems to imply that there were some concerns that there were too many awards for valor in CAP at the time and they wanted to shorten the list. It is interesting though that "the winning combination" was 2 medals for valor picked for cost saving measures.

And, please don't turn this post into a MOH vs. ANY CAP award discussion - I was asking a specific CAP history question here.

Besides the recent addition of the CAP Achievement Award, was the 1960 review the latest review made of our decorations? Has there been any talk about further distinguishing the awards instead of just using the star devices - say moving to the use of the "V" device which is the common military designator for an award for valor? It seems that would make more sense, especially since devices of all kinds are relatively cheap add-ons.

[MichaelAGates]

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is no such thing as the "CMOH" (Congressional Medal of Honor) Its is called the "Medal of Honor",  and is awarded by the President in the name of the Congress.

Actually, United States law does refer to it as the Congressional Medal of Honor.


TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 33--EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, AND NAMES
Sec. 704. Military medals or decorations
c) Enhanced Penalty for Offenses Involving Congressional Medal of
Honor.--
        (1) In general.--If a decoration or medal involved in an offense
    under subsection (a) or (b) is a Congressional Medal of Honor, in
    lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender
    shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or
    both.
        (2) Congressional medal of honor defined.--In this subsection,
    the term ``Congressional Medal of Honor'' means--
            (A) a medal of honor awarded under section 3741, 6241, or
        8741 of title 10 or section 491 of title 14;
            (B) a duplicate medal of honor issued under section 3754,
        6256, or 8754 of title 10 or section 504 of title 14; or
            (C) a replacement of a medal of honor provided under section
        3747, 6253, or 8747 of title 10 or section 501 of title 14.



TITLE 36--PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS
Subtitle II--Patriotic and National Organizations
Part B--Organizations
CHAPTER 405--CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES  OF AMERICA
Sec. 40501.  Organization.


..

[davidsinn]

We don't have a gold medal of valor.

And from a military stand point we only have a bronze star and silver star which the S/BMV are the equivalent to.

The gold medal would be CMOH. That raises the question: Would we be eligible for the CMOH for actions on an AFAM? Because I'd argue that the lost sub-hunters would be the guys in line if so.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is no such thing as the "CMOH" (Congressional Medal of Honor) Its is called the "Medal of Honor",  and is awarded by the President in the name of the Congress. It has been awarded to at least one civilian (not lately!) but to even compare it to a CAP award is.......well, lets just say, a little unseemly. It is a thing that is sacred.

Major Lord

I wasn't trying to compare it to one of our awards. I was thinking that the military only has bronze and silver stars and the MOH would be the gold one. That's why we don't have a gold award because it would be a very rare thing indeed that rose to that level. I wouldn't think anybody but sub-hunters would even come close to earning it.

[lordmonar]

We don't have a gold one...because we don't have a gold one.

No other reason.

[davidsinn]

We don't have a gold one...because we don't have a gold one.

No other reason.

Or that.

[Major Lord]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

[Strick]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

OUCH.............that stingss

[Major Lord]

It should only hurt if you were one of Lord Voldemorts' henchmen........Those dark days are gone, but not forgotten!

Major Lord

[ltcmark]

The question was brought up why silver trumps gold on awards.  A few years ago I was doing some research on rank and came across this little tidbit.  Unfortunately I did not save the references so I cannot give credit where credit is due.  If you are into the history, this is an interesting read.


Why Silver "Ranks" Gold

At the start of the American Revolution, officers in the Continental Army wore no rank insignia; it soon became apparent that some means of identifying the officers was required. As an expedient, field officers were ordered to wear red cockades on their hats, captains wore yellow or buff and lieutenants were provided with cockades of green.

In 1782 Washington implemented a system where epaulettes would be worn by officers as indicators of rank: major generals wore epaulettes with two stars on each shoulder, brigadier generals epaulettes with one star on each shoulder, field graders a plain gold epaulette on each shoulder, captains wore a single epaulette on the right shoulder, and subalterns wore one on the left.

In 1821 this practice was abolished in favor of using chevrons to denote rank. Chevrons for officer rank did not last long (except at West Point, where they're still used today to designate cadet officer rank), and in 1832 epaulettes came back. (This was also when the spread eagle was adopted as the insignia for full colonels.) Infantry officers wore silver epaulettes; all others wore gold. For example, an infantry colonel wore a gold eagle on his silver epaulette, and all other colonels wore silver eagles on gold.

In 1836 the shoulder strap replaced the epaulette on field uniforms. It had a border of silver or gold depending on the color of the epaulette it replaced. The leaf and bars appeared at this time, but the colors were not fixed—officers wore gold insignia on silver-bordered shoulder straps and vice versa. In 1851 all epaulettes and shoulder strap borders became gold and the insignia on the epaulettes were silver. Majors and second lieutenants wore no rank insignia—they were distinguished only by the type of fringe on their epaulettes. Rank insignia on shoulder straps were silver for all officers down to and including lieutenant colonels; captains and first lieutenants wore gold insignia.

When epaulettes were abolished in 1872 and replaced with shoulder knots which had no fringe, it was necessary to devise some insignia to distinguish the majors from second lieutenants. So the gold leaf was adopted to denote majors, and that's why lieutenant colonels wear silver leaves and majors gold. At the same time the color of the bars for junior officers was changed to silver. The second lieutenant still wore no insignia, and was only distinguished by the shoulder strap or knot.

Finally, in 1917 the second lieutenant got some "respect" and the Army decided to adopt a new insignia for him. The plan called for the least disruption to other rank insignia, so it was decided to follow the color precedent established in devising major's insignia and adopt the gold bar for the second lieutenant


and this

1. The method of identifying Colonels was initially established by General Washington on July 23, 1775 when he stated: "...the field officers may have red or pink colored cockades in their hats, ...". Although there is evidence that colonels wore the eagle as rank insignia in 1829 when they transferred the gold or gilt eagles that decorated their hat cockades to their collars. In 1832, gold eagles were authorized for infantry colonels because they were placed on silver epaulettes and silver eagles to be placed on gold epaulettes were authorized for all other colonels.

2. In 1851, the silver epaulettes for infantry was abolished and all epaulettes became gold. As a result, all colonel insignia of grade became silver. The 1851 regulation included illustrations which show the embroidered eagle on the shoulder strap faced the arrows while the eagle worn on the epaulettes faced the olive branch. Apparently due to the lack of specifications, the direction of the eagle's head depended upon the manufacturer.

3. Metal insignia was authorized to be worn on the khaki blouse in 1902. The colonel's insignia was described as a silver spread eagle. There is no reference as to the direction of the eagle's head nor are there illustrations. The 1917 uniform specifications and regulations describe the insignia as a metal silver spread eagle, 3/4 inch high and 2 inches between the tips of the wings. It was worn on the shoulder loop, beak to the front, and on the right collar of the shirt with the eagle's beak to the front. In 1921, the size of the eagle was reduced from 2 inches to 1 1/2 inches between the tips of the wings. The height of the insignia remained unchanged at 3/4 inch.

4. In 1926, the insignia was made in pairs with the head of the eagle facing to the front when worn. This was the first reference to the insignia being made in pairs. To do this, the eagle's head was reversed on one insignia – the insignia worn on the right shoulder had the eagle's head facing the laurel branch. On the left shoulder, the eagle's head faced the arrows. The insignia with the eagle's head facing the arrow became known by the term "war eagle".

5. In 1951, the insignia was redesigned so that the eagle's head faced the laurel branch on both the left and right shoulder insignia with the arrows to the rear on both insignia.

6. The so called "war eagle" is no longer authorized for wear on the uniform.

[lordmonar]

So basically......Silver outranks gold just because that's the way they liked it.



You got to love our militarty traditions sometimes.

[OldSalt]

The funny thing about American military history is that no matter how hard the founders tried to remove themselves from the "old european ways" for identification, they found that some things "just make sense" and shouldn't be "changed" just for the sake of "change alone". And we eventually came full-circle.

In the beginning no one wanted our troops to be confused at all with the European power structures - i.e. ranks, medals, ribbons, etc. etc. - but with war they found that we needed allies, and those allies wanted to see that the new country they were allying themsleves with could provide a "professional" army for themselves. Of course, the very allies we needed to impress (i.e. the French) considered only the old European ways to represent "professionalism". Also, since war is war, and troops need to be able to readily identify their leaders - they needed uniforms and insignia. Later on, we re-introduced medals and ribbons back on our uniforms because it was a necessary "evil" for morale and to inculcate greater Espirit de Corps.

Funny how humans in the end are just humans and we all have the same needs and expectations.

The other interesting thing is how "tradition" is preserved whilst change is inevitable over time. Every generation needs to "make their mark", but no one wants to offend our ancestors unecessarily. So, rather than make large sweeping changes - we just do incremental ones based upon the previously accepted ideals. Fascinating if you're into that kind of Sociological musings.

[ltcmark]

I am just glad they did not carry through with the cockades.  I cannot see myself wearing one of these.



Although the Army still uses the knots:

[lordmonar]

I don't know......that would look pretty sharp on the flight cap! 

[OldSalt]

I don't know......that would look pretty sharp on the flight cap! 

DOH!

[Spike]

Wow....I love reading history from people who have no idea what the crap they are talking about. 

Here is the United States Army Version of rank and color.  CLICK_HERE_FOR_REAL_HISTORY_INFO

Newbieontheloose..... wow, just wow! 

[flyboy53]

If you're still collecting information on the Medal of Valor, you should know that the first recipient of the medal was a cadet: Cadet John C. Barton of Lake Charles, La., for an act of valor in 1959 at Chennault AFB, La. He was a high school senior at the time and it was presented to him a year later when he was serving in the Air Force.

Afterward, NHQ broke the medal into two classes: siliver and bronze.

The first Bronze Medals of Valor were also presented in 1960 to four Florida Wing members: Senior Member Gerald F. Grenaw and cadets George Karl, Marvin Jewell and Robert Slaton for an emergency at a hospital during Hurricane Donna.

The first Silver Medal of Valor went to a cadet: C/SSgt. Charles Foster of Lynchburg, VA., for  a 1957 plane crash in which he saved the life of the pilot, a doctor. He pulled the pilot from the wreckage as it caught on fire. The second one went to Lt. Col. Paul Zeller of the Colorado Wing for an Air Force plane crash on or near Lowry AFB.

The youngest recipient was 14-year-old Cadet James R. Aaron of the California Wing, for a March 1962 CAP plane crash in the mountains that started as an orientation flight. He was personally decorated by Gen. Carl Spaatz.

Pretty gutsy stuff, if I don't say so myself.....

[heliodoc]

^^^

Yes sir ...the good old daze of CAP

Before CAP had a CAP Risk Management, ORM and Safety program....

Nowadays one may have to stand by the sidelines and not pull anyone out of a wreck or any other service just to please the corporation

The real action will be those  who do the right thing, render the service, and move out smartly

The still will be gutsy stuff in CAP, just clear the area and don't answer anyone's questions

[SarDragon]

Wow....I love reading history from people who have no idea what the crap they are talking about. 

Here is the United States Army Version of rank and color.  CLICK_HERE_FOR_REAL_HISTORY_INFO

Newbieontheloose..... wow, just wow!

Linky broky!

[Spike]

^works just fine!!

[Major Lord]

Personally, I am going to stick with my theory that silver is just better for killing werewolves.....

Major Lord

[Spike]

Personally, I am going to stick with my theory that silver is just better for killing werewolves.....

And those that insist "Twilight" or "New Moon" are stories about vampires and warewolves.   

[James Shaw]

Personally, I am going to stick with my theory that silver is just better for killing werewolves.....

And those that insist "Twilight" or "New Moon" are stories about vampires and warewolves.   

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: my stomach is aching from that one!!

[raivo]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

I have Mountain Dew on my screen now.

[Spike]

^ hahahha ahhahahha haha ahhahahahhah  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[OldSalt]

Wow....I love reading history from people who have no idea what the crap they are talking about. 

Here is the United States Army Version of rank and color.  CLICK_HERE_FOR_REAL_HISTORY_INFO

Newbieontheloose..... wow, just wow!

I'm not sure here - were you flaming me or praising me with this? If flaming - the sarcasm didn't quite make it into the post - and yes, the link is broken.

[raivo]

It works for me, though it's extremely slow...

[Spike]

Wow....I love reading history from people who have no idea what the crap they are talking about. 

Here is the United States Army Version of rank and color.  CLICK_HERE_FOR_REAL_HISTORY_INFO

Newbieontheloose..... wow, just wow!

I'm not sure here - were you flaming me or praising me with this? If flaming - the sarcasm didn't quite make it into the post - and yes, the link is broken.

Your historical assumption post was well.....historically flawed from sentence one.  The link does work, it may be slow on computers that are only used to accessing Wikipedia for answers on everything 

[OldSalt]

Your historical assumption post was well.....historically flawed from sentence one.  The link does work, it may be slow on computers that are only used to accessing Wikipedia for answers on everything 

Ok, looks like another "holier than thou" "CAPtalk expert". And I might add a wise-<insert other name for a donkey here> to boot. :clap:

Don't you have a day job to get back to, or is your stand-up comedy routine your only hope for success?

[flyboy53]

Your historical assumption post was well.....historically flawed from sentence one.  The link does work, it may be slow on computers that are only used to accessing Wikipedia for answers on everything 

Ok, looks like another "holier than thou" "CAPtalk expert". And I might add a wise-<insert other name for a donkey here> to boot. :clap:

Don't you have a day job to get back to, or is your stand-up comedy routine your only hope for success?

How about if we stay on task here instead of attacking one and other and derailing the string from it's original intent.

I have a question. How many recipients are still members? Seems to me that their stories might serve as really inspirational messages for the membership as a whole. I wonder if NHQ would ever consider a booklet of some kind or add their stories to the National Museum....and one other thing I just realized. The Medal of Valor may be the highest CAP decoration, but the true highest CAP medal is the Air Medal and those 800 or so recipients.

[OldSalt]

How about if we stay on task here instead of attacking one and other and derailing the string from it's original intent.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I was finally able to get into the website Spike quoted. Here is the text from it for those who can't get to it:

Silver and Gold Officer Insignia of Rank





The precedence of silver over gold in officer insignia of grade was not the result of deliberate intent, but arose from the desire to avoid unnecessary changes. Although the background discussed below is for Army insignia, the Navy and Marine Corps metal insignia of grade for officers have paralleled those of the Army. When the Air Force was established in 1947, it adopted the officers' insignia of grade already in used by the Army.
Since 1780, when insignia was embroidered on the epaulettes, the grade of general officers has been denoted by a number of silver stars. This was the beginning of the present system of officers' grade insignia. Epaulettes were specified for all officers in 1832; for the infantry they were silver and all others had gold epaulettes. In order that the rank insignia would be clearly discernible, they were of the opposite color; that is, the infantry colonels had an eagle of gold because it was placed on a silver epaulette and all other colonels had silver eagles on gold epaulettes. At that time the only grade insignia were the stars for general officers and eagles for colonels. Epaulettes for lieutenant colonels, majors, captains, and lieutenants had no insignia -- the length and size of the fringe showing the difference of grade.
Shoulder straps were adopted to replace the epaulette for field duty in 1836. The straps followed the same color combination as the epaulettes; that is, the border was gold with silver insignia for all officers except those of infantry which had silver border with gold insignia. At that time majors were authorized leaves; captains were authorized two bars and first lieutenants were authorized one bars on the shoulder straps.
In 1851, the colonel's eagle was prescribed in silver only. Apparently when it was decided to use only one color, the silver eagle was selected based on the fact that there were more colonels with the silver eagle that those with gold. At that time on the shoulder straps, lieutenant colonels wore an embroidered silver leaf; majors wore a gold embroidered leaf; and captains and first lieutenants wore gold bars. The second lieutenant had no grade insignia, but the epaulette or shoulder strap identified him as a commissioned officer.
In 1872, epaulettes were abolished for officers and replaced by shoulder knots. As the shoulder knots had no fringe, it was necessary that some change in the insignia on the dress uniform be made in order to distinguish the major from the second lieutenant. It was natural to use the gold leaf which the major had worn on the shoulder strap for the previous twenty-one years. In the same year, the bars on the shoulder straps of the captains and first lieutenants were changed from gold to silver to correspond with the silver devices of the senior officers.
The service uniform of olive drab gradually came to be used more frequently and by the time of World War I, the blue uniform was worn only in the evenings and on dress occasions. As a result, metal insignia was authorized for wear on the service uniform on the shoulder loop and on the collar of the shirt when worn without a jacket. Shortly after the United States entered World War I, only the service olive drab uniform was being worn. The need for an insignia for the second lieutenant became urgent. Among the proposals was one to authorized for that grade one bar, the first lieutenant two bars, and the captain three bars. However, the policy of making as little change as possible prevailed, and a gold bar was adopted in 1917, following the precedent previously established by the adoption of the major's insignia.
Although silver outranks gold insofar as the Armed Forces metal insignia of grade, gold can be considered as outranking silver in medals and decorations and their appurtenances. The order of precedence in establishing medals when using the same design is gold, silver and bronze. (poster's emphasis added)

This is from http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/UniformedServices/Silver_Gold_Insignia.aspx

So, not to stir the pot but it appears that Gold is the top dog of the medal world even though Silver is in the Rank world. I think someone brought up the Silver Star and Bronze Stars for comparison. While in theory the names would suggest that the Silver Star is all silver, it is really a Gold Star with a superimposed very small silver star in the center. Whereas the Bronze Star is all bronze. 

I also was reading about the use of the "V" device there to denote Valor, and my idea of using it for our Medals of Valor doesn't hold water. The specific language for the use of the "V" device states that the device is worn on ribbons of medals where the act of heroism is combat related. So, since CAP does not participate in combat operations, none of our corporate medals would qualify. Air Medals awarded for CAP WWII service however, could qualify since the Air Medal is a federal award and not CAP corporate.

[lordmonar]

There you go comparing CAP with the real military.

If you read the regs closely you will find that we already use the Bronze V on our Disaster Service ribbon for assistance during a presidential declared disaster.

So....out goes that argument.

There is nothing really wrong with the way we do things now.

[OldSalt]

You know, IF CAP ever decided to create a "Gold Medal of Valor" at some future date, I would propose that we just have the AF award the Air Force Soldier's Medal to the member. If one of our members performed an act of extraordinary valor to the point of it being "gallant" above and beyond the call of duty for a SMOV, this would be entirely appropriate in my book.

Here is a link to the AFSM: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7769
And where it stands in the official Order of Precedence: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/library/awards/index.asp

[OldSalt]

There you go comparing CAP with the real military.

If you read the regs closely you will find that we already use the Bronze V on our Disaster Service ribbon for assistance during a presidential declared disaster.

So....out goes that argument.

There is nothing really wrong with the way we do things now.

There YOU go again - I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the way we do things now - sheesh. What is it with people here, can't we just discuss something without trying to poke the other guys eyes out. This is an informal discussion board, not a "don't dare question the establishment" board.

[flyboy53]

The unofficial gold over silver was best described in this NCO Academy description:

"From 1872 the majors received oak leaves in gold to distinguish them from the silver of lieutenant colonels and the bars of both captains and lieutenants became silver. In a similar fashion, 1917 saw the introduction of a single gold bar for second lieutenants. These changes created the curious situation (in terms of heraldic tradition) of silver outranking gold. One after-the-fact explanation suggested by some NCOs is that the more-malleable gold suggests that the bearer is being "molded" for his or her responsibilities -- as a field officer (second lieutenant) or staff officer (major). However, this explanation may be more clever than correct, for while the insignia for second lieutenant and major are gold colored they are actually made of brass (except that the gold bars used to "pin on" a Second Lieutenant at the US Military Academy are, by tradition, 14kt gold), and brass is a base metal while silver is a precious metal. The rank order thus does not actually conflict with heraldic tradition."

That said, can we drop the "V" device. We're supposed to be non-combat now. You know, I have a Commendation Medal for non-combat valor at a plane crash. The citation says it all. I don't need a "V" on the ribbon to show what I did. Why do we need another device on our ribbons when it would only cause confusion? Besides, I kind of agree with some of the other posts, HWSRN would be the first one for gold...paper cuts and all.

[Eclipse]

That said, can we drop the "V" device. We're supposed to be non-combat now. You know, I have a Commendation Medal for non-combat valor at a plane crash. The citation says it all. I don't need a "V" on the ribbon to show what I did. Why do we need another device on our ribbons when it would only cause confusion?

How would you get a "V" device on anything related to a plane crash?

The only place CAP wears one is on the DR ribbon for POTUS-declared disasters.

Say what you want about the V being inappropriate, but it serves to change the ribbon and has a specific meaning.  What we should do is ditch the ribbon for taking ARC training and just leave it for real DR missions.

[Major Carrales]

^^^

Yes sir ...the good old daze of CAP

Before CAP had a CAP Risk Management, ORM and Safety program....

Nowadays one may have to stand by the sidelines and not pull anyone out of a wreck or any other service just to please the corporation

The real action will be those  who do the right thing, render the service, and move out smartly

The still will be gutsy stuff in CAP, just clear the area and don't answer anyone's questions

I will say this...all that be DARNED!!!  If CAP wants to throw me out because I went in to a danger to save a life...be it the life of a friend or the life of a stanger...then so be it.  How could anyone hesitate in the line of duty for a reason as a result of fear of reprisals.

To think that a cadet, fellow CAP Officer or anyone in under the blue sky would be left to burn alive or suffer because of something that...makes me cringe.

I am recalling that ones newstory earlier this year where some security guards let a girl be beaten and merely watched for the want of company policies.

[PHall]

You know, IF CAP ever decided to create a "Gold Medal of Valor" at some future date, I would propose that we just have the AF award the Air Force Soldier's Medal to the member. If one of our members performed an act of extraordinary valor to the point of it being "gallant" above and beyond the call of duty for a SMOV, this would be entirely appropriate in my book.

What the heck is an "Air Force Soldier's Medal"?  There is no such animal. But there is an Airman's Medal...

[flyboy53]

You know, IF CAP ever decided to create a "Gold Medal of Valor" at some future date, I would propose that we just have the AF award the Air Force Soldier's Medal to the member. If one of our members performed an act of extraordinary valor to the point of it being "gallant" above and beyond the call of duty for a SMOV, this would be entirely appropriate in my book.

What the heck is an "Air Force Soldier's Medal"?  There is no such animal. But there is an Airman's Medal...

Correct. There are actually four: The Soldier's Medal, the Airman's Medal, the Coast Guard Medal and the Navy and Marine Corps Medal...all basically for distinguishing themselves by heroic actions, usually at the voluntary risk of life, but not involving actual combat. Some notable recipients include President John F. Kennedy (Navy); Duane Hackney and William Pitsenbarger (Air Force); Gen. Colin Powell (Army); and Edgar Culbertson (posthumously, Coast Guard). Some of these medals (not the recipients) pre-date World War II.

A Commendation Medal is then awarded for courage or non-combat herorisim when the action does not warrant the award of the former. My citation says "courage and extraordinary professionalism."

Might be a great idea, though.

[Flying Pig]

Why the heck would we ever create a gold medal of valor?  So what do we do then?  All of the CAP SMoV recipients would now have CAP's #2 medal?  Or would all SMoVs be upgraded to the GMoV?  Nor do we need to be putting in for the Airmans Medal. 

If a civilian volunteer for the Sheriff's SAR does something, they get recognition from the department and the county, but they don't get the Sheriff's Medal of Valor.  Only sworn Deputies and Correctional Officers are eligible for that.  That's how I equate CAP.  If you want the Airmans Medal or Navy Marine Corps Medal, then you had better be serving in one of those branches.  Otherwise, leave their stuff alone.    If your not in the Air Force, why would you want the Airmans Medal?  I personally would rather have the highest decoration for the organization that I am actually a member of.  And please don't tell me your an Air Force member on an AFAM

I think we have plenty of medals to recognize members and their actions. We in CAP know that the Silver MoV is our top medal.  Lets leave it alone.  I don't see CAP awarding non-CAP members medals.  Some of you would become violently ill if that ever happened.  I recall a CAP member telling Mary Feik she needed to take the Feik ribbon of her jacket because she hadnt actually earned it.  Remember that one!?
Heck, based on many discussions, I'm not even eligible for CAP medals when I'm working as a Sheriff because I am being paid.  Although I earned the Departments Medal of Valor and Lifesaving medal while on duty, some felt that because I get a paycheck at the end of the month, Im not eligible for CAP recognition also.  Even though military members are being paid correct?  I like the justifications some CAP members use to keep the pool small.
Even though nowhere in my job description does it say I am required to risk my life.  Why then are we asking the military to award CAP members military medals?

[tdepp]

^^^Pig:
Too much common sense for one post.  Why do some of our members covet other organizations' awards? If the SMOV is our highest award, then it's our highest award.  End of story. 

[RiverAux]

If you want the Airmans Medal or Navy Marine Corps Medal, then you had better be serving in one of those branches.  Otherwise, leave their stuff alone.    If your not in the Air Force, why would you want the Airmans Medal?  I personally would rather have the highest decoration for the organization that I am actually a member of.  And please don't tell me your an Air Force member on an AFAM

I think we have plenty of medals to recognize members and their actions. We in CAP know that the Silver MoV is our top medal.  Lets leave it alone.  I don't see CAP awarding non-CAP members medals. 

The difference is that there are existing authorizations that could be used to give certain military awards to CAP members while there are no such similar procedures for CAP awards to be given to someone else. 

[Flying Pig]

Oh right.  Existing authorizations.  I guess it would be a huge deal for CAP to award a CAP medal to a "civilian".  You know, someone would have to order the medal from Vanguard and print out a certificate......

[PA Guy]

This is the perfect example of a solution looking for a problem. Leave it alone because it isn't broken and doesn't need fixing.

As for AF awards/decs for CAP, give me a break. None have been awarded in over 60 yrs so that should give you some idea of how that would go over. The AF isn't about to give one of their awards/decs to someone in CAP. The AF has made it very clear that they want CAP to be as distinct and separate as possible.

[RiverAux]

Nevertheless, they can give some military awards to civilians.

[Flying Pig]

Which ones? When was the last time?  Thats the point, it may be on the books but nobody does it anymore.  And in the rare cases that they do, its usually a civilian working directly for the military.  However, civilians working for the military even in combat zones dont rate military medals.

[RiverAux]

Which ones?

There are other threads that discuss that.  Don't want to derail this one too badly.

[lordmonar]

There are other threads that discuss that.  Don't want to derail this one too badly.

Too late. 

[Flying Pig]

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

[BillB]

Can a Mod lock this thread. It now has been hijacked and has nothing to do with History, belongs under Uniforms

[CCAlex]

The reason I do not know, but having decorations on the award shows that you went further then others. Isn't it true that 5 honorable actions get you the decoration?

If there is a Gold Medal of Valor, or Honor, it would be just below silver. I don't know the exact reason, but, Lt. Col is silver and is higher than Major, which is gold.

Posts merged. MIKE

[James Shaw]

The reason I do not know, but having decorations on the award shows that you went further then others. Isn't it true that 5 honorable actions get you the decoration?

I am not sure what your question is?

[HGjunkie]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.....DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.  [darn] YOU HG!

You know that's going to be on the next NB agenda!

[HGjunkie]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.....DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.  [darn] YOU HG!

You know that's going to be on the next NB agenda!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[James Shaw]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

Please be mindful that this is out of line. This is not something to even joke about. We have a hard enough time being CAP and being seen as wannabees we don't need this kind of thing started.

[HGjunkie]

If Tony was still around, we would have had a Gold one by now, probably worn on a neck ribbon, possibly with a matching cape. He would be the sole recipient, for gallantry in the face of insurmountable 2B actions, fought off unsuccessfully while receiving life threatening paper cuts, and stacking the bodies of his subordinates as a shield against incoming fire.

Major Lord

Please be mindful that this is out of line. This is not something to even joke about. We have a hard enough time being CAP and being seen as wannabees we don't need this kind of thing started.

Geez, it's just a joke man. 

[SarDragon]

But it's not funny, and in horribly poor taste.

Mods, can we tank the graphics?

[HGjunkie]

if you guys saw the original one I posted, it was out of humor and completely relevant to the post I quoted. It was simply a humorous picture to go with a relevant post.

[HGjunkie]

You gotta admit, it actually looks kind of cool.

[cap235629]

You gotta admit, it actually looks kind of cool.

No It looked disrespectful, immature and in poor taste.

[HGjunkie]

You gotta admit, it actually looks kind of cool.

No It looked disrespectful, immature and in poor taste.

IT'S A JOKE!

[spaatzmom]

Uhm, NO it is not a joke, even in the remotest possibility of a joke.  Those whose families have lost members during their service would be extremely offended.  Why not ask MOH awardee Paul Smith's widow how she feels.  She lives in the Tampa area.  A very gracious lady.  I'm sure she would rather have her husband home and alive as opposed to resting in Arlington.  This "joke" mocks his valiant sacrifice.

[HGjunkie]

I'm sorry if I offended anybody. I did not intend to disrespect anybody who has been awarded the MOH in the RM. In fact, I actually highly respect MOH recipients. What I posted was in no way intended to cause anybody harm. I will now take the photo down.

[lordmonar]

I think everyone needs to take a little chill pill.

It was a joke,  don't get all bent out of shape...HG has apologised let it go.

[DakRadz]

The reason I do not know, but having decorations on the award shows that you went further then others. Isn't it true that 5 honorable actions get you the decoration?

If there is a Gold Medal of Valor, or Honor, it would be just below silver. I don't know the exact reason, but, Lt. Col is silver and is higher than Major, which is gold.

Posts merged. MIKE

Look through the last couple of pages... We already discussed that in awards, Gold is still higher. Rank is a completely different scenario. Try not to disregard half of a topic just because the posts are long ^_^

[James Shaw]

Your historical assumption post was well.....historically flawed from sentence one.  The link does work, it may be slow on computers that are only used to accessing Wikipedia for answers on everything 

Ok, looks like another "holier than thou" "CAPtalk expert". And I might add a wise-<insert other name for a donkey here> to boot. :clap:

Don't you have a day job to get back to, or is your stand-up comedy routine your only hope for success?

How about if we stay on task here instead of attacking one and other and derailing the string from it's original intent.

I have a question. How many recipients are still members? Seems to me that their stories might serve as really inspirational messages for the membership as a whole. I wonder if NHQ would ever consider a booklet of some kind or add their stories to the National Museum....and one other thing I just realized. The Medal of Valor may be the highest CAP decoration, but the true highest CAP medal is the Air Medal and those 800 or so recipients.

The United States Congress and CAP are trying to honor the Air Medal recipients. We are in the middle of verifying CAP members and their service during WWII. If we can veryify they may quailify for the Congressional Gold Medal.

There are about 40 active CAP members who have earned the Silver and Bronze Medal of Valor. We do have a current recipient working on a book. All together we have about 600 recipients. 130 or so SMV and the rest BMV. There are 3 or 4 who are active on this blog.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is something that all civilians are eligible to be awarded to include CAP, that is supposed to be the same as the CMOH. It is called the presidential medal of freedom. Obama however has been kinda tainting it by giving it to 16 people who did pretty much nothing to deserve it. He gave it to a comedian, and a few others who have done nothing to better the lives of others or anything.

[HGjunkie]

There is something that all civilians are eligible to be awarded to include CAP, that is supposed to be the same as the CMOH. It is called the presidential medal of freedom. Obama however has been kinda tainting it by giving it to 16 people who did pretty much nothing to deserve it. He gave it to a comedian, and a few others who have done nothing to better the lives of others or anything.

He did give it to Stephen Hawkins and some Indian Chiefs, gotta Commend that.

[Gunner C]

There is something that all civilians are eligible to be awarded to include CAP, that is supposed to be the same as the CMOH. It is called the presidential medal of freedom. Obama however has been kinda tainting it by giving it to 16 people who did pretty much nothing to deserve it. He gave it to a comedian, and a few others who have done nothing to better the lives of others or anything.

There is nothing equal to the MOH.  The congressional gold medals are not anywhere close to it nor are they intended to be.

As the award citation includes the phrase "in the name of Congress", it is sometimes erroneously called the Congressional Medal of Honor, however the official title is the Medal of Honor.

No such thing as the CMOH.

He did give it to Stephen Hawkins and some Indian Chiefs, gotta Commend that

No.  Read more, type less.

[PHall]

He did give it to Stephen Hawkins and some Indian Chiefs, gotta Commend that.

It's Stephen Hawking (there's only one of him).

[HGjunkie]

Oh... 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

It's not a congressional gold medal. You should look it up.

[HGjunkie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Gold_Medal

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That is not the presidential medal of freedom.

[DakRadz]

It's not a congressional gold medal. You should look it up.

But you did refer to one, and one exists. So.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I did not refer to a congressional gold medal, I said the presidential medal of freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Medal_of_Freedom

[DakRadz]

Yeah, well, guess what! Neil Armstrong was awarded them BOTH!

:clap: Go Armstrong!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Good, I say he deserves them both, and then some. So does everyone who died in any space shuttle launch explosion.

[HGjunkie]

Good, I say he deserves them both, and then some. So does everyone who died in any space shuttle launch explosion.

Armstrong didn't die in a shuttle explosion though... he landed on the moon. I do understand your point of view for that though.

[DakRadz]

He is alive still, you know. That was worded in a slightly confusing way..

John Glenn is alive as well.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No I didn't mean that he died. Just that all who did deserves it also.

[HGjunkie]

No I didn't mean that he died. Just that all who did deserves it also.

You definetly could have worded that better. But, you live and learn...
BTW half your sig is out.

[AlphaSigOU]

There's also the Congressional Space Medal of Honor:



It is the only U.S. medal (military or civilian) that includes a jewel (a diamond). And unlike the military's Medal of Honor, it does have 'Congressional' in its official title.

[AlphaSigOU]

There is something that all civilians are eligible to be awarded to include CAP, that is supposed to be the same as the CMOH. It is called the presidential medal of freedom. Obama however has been kinda tainting it by giving it to 16 people who did pretty much nothing to deserve it. He gave it to a comedian, and a few others who have done nothing to better the lives of others or anything.

I don't think so; the Presidential Medal of Freedom is awarded:

"... [to] those individuals who have made "an especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of the United States, world peace, cultural or other significant public or private endeavors."

Please take the partisan politics out of the equation. It isn't handed out as a political favor. Those people have earned the PMOF based on the above award criteria.

[Cecil DP]

Yeah, well, guess what! Neil Armstrong was awarded them BOTH!

:clap: Go Armstrong!

Armstrong, Collins, and Aldrin were awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the "Space Medal of Honor", not the Congressional Medal of Honor 

[James Shaw]

The thread seems to be getting off of the original topic.