Should cadets be allowed to conduct SUI interviews

[Fuzzy]

I completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet.  I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below.  There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP.  As it should be.  I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues.  On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility.  It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.

Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.

[Cecil DP]

I completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet.  I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below.  There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP.  As it should be.  I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues.  On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility.  It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.

Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.

Only those delegated to them from their unit commander.

[Eclipse]

I completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet.  I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below.  There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP.  As it should be.  I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues.  On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility.  It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.

Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.

Only those delegated to them from their unit commander.

That could be said of any senior member as well.

The issue stems from cadets not being "adults" in the eyes of the program.  They can't ever be assigned actual authority over anything since they can't self-supervise.

[heliodoc]

Then there some senior members who could not supervise a trash can in to a corner

[flydoggy]

So where are the cadets going to get experience to be a SUI? How about as an assistant.For a cadet to tell me something is wrong with(say) my uniform,then take it a constructive advise and move on.

[Nathan]

Nathan, I think you misunderstood.  I wasn't suggesting that they do a uniform inspection, but actually inspect the program itself and what the cadet leaders are doing.  Basically a cadet-based version of the SUI. 

There would be just about as much "line of authority" for such a cadet program as there would be with the senior members actually doing the SUI.  Don't see that as an issue.  The cadet doing the inspection would note any violation of the regulations they are tasked with checking compliance on and it would be included in the overall report along with all the others.

I don't think there's a misunderstanding. My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections. An inspection is an inspection. You have a standard, you measure a variable against that standard, and decide if any error falls within an acceptable margin. There are few differences between doing a unit inspection and doing a uniform inspection or barracks inspection in this regard.

The only justification I can think of where a cadet might actually learn something that helps them complete their mission of completing the cadet program is seeing how the units work at a higher level. But, once again, I was never part of a unit inspection team, and I did a pretty good job throughout my cadet career gaining this kind of knowledge from just having to work with CP senior members for pretty much the last two years of my cadethood.

So, without any unique experiences being made, and without the capability of actually mattering (since a cadet is never going to be able to tell a DCC what to do with his/her squadron), I just don't really see the point. Maybe at the Spaatz level, when the cadet has nothing much left to do except prepare for becoming a senior, but even then, I could probably think of a bunch of things that the cadet could do that is more productive and teaches them a different skill set than one they have been practicing since working as a flight sergeant.

[Flying Pig]

This can be a stressful time for Squadrons. There is a lot of preparation involved with real consequences if things dont go well.  I want someone who can inspect from experience, someone who knows how the program operates, and someone who can offer me advice on how to fix it.  I know of no cadets who can bring this. 

As far as cadet programs, there are regulation and record keeping things that are inspected that are pretty cut and dry.  My DCC has his vision, combined with my vision for where I want to see the unit go as the Squadron Commander that are not an inspection item provided I am following the regs.  I dont have the time nor the interest in sitting down with a cadet from another squadron, who, in reality is probably just reiterating his/her own DCC's vision for their unit.   When my unit was inspected, I had the Group staff come and inspect.  The detail they brought with them in the inspection areas was almost sickening.  If I had a deficiency, I was told EXACTLY how to fix it.  Admin, Finance, Logistics, Aircraft Management, Counter Drug, ES, Command, etc, etc....  Again, things cadets dont deal with. 

If an inspector wants to bring some cadets with him to observe, please, by all means do so.  If you are an inspector, lets say for ES, and your home unit has a Cadet ES officer, bring them so they can watch you inspect and so they can see the business side of CAP ES.  But I wont have them interviewing my senior staff or my appointed cadet staff in a setting where there are consequences for getting your unit grounded or shut down.  And if a grievance issue comes up, I dont want to be put in a position as a Senior to have a dispute with an inspecting cadet.

[RiverAux]

My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections.

I think you're looking at it backward. 

We don't do SUIs so that the people on the inspection team can learn something.  They are there to use their experience within the program to evaluate the unit that they are inspecting and hopefully while they are doing that pass on some of what they are learned to that inspecting unit. 

[Flying Pig]

So where are the cadets going to get experience to be a SUI? How about as an assistant.For a cadet to tell me something is wrong with(say) my uniform,then take it a constructive advise and move on.

Ill take up sides with River on this.  SUI's arent a part of the learning process for a cadet. We dont nurture future seniors by having them, as cadets conduct SUI's.  They will learn that as junior Senior Members should they choose to go that route.  Not EVERYTHING in CAP is meant to be a teaching moment for a cadet.

[Eclipse]

Flying Pig, I'm not picking on you here, but you enumerate a number of fallacies about the SUI process.

This can be a stressful time for Squadrons.

There's no reason it should be - everyone makes the same money whether you get a marginal or an outstanding, and no one
is stood down unless there is a safety or money / property issue, which rarely rears its head in an SUI.  The majority of issues
are in the minutia of administrivia, and they are generally easily fixed.

There is a lot of preparation involved with real consequences if things dont go well.

Probably the biggest mistake - an SUI is not a final exam, or even mid-terms.  Its a snapshot of operations and compliance at a given period of time.  Units that are operating properly should have little preparation necessary, and take my word, if it looks like things were crammed, with all your appointment dates on the same night, its obvious. 

I want someone who can inspect from experience, someone who knows how the program operates, and someone who can offer me advice on how to fix it.  I know of no cadets who can bring this. 

Probably the next mistake.

IG's are not there to "offer advice".  They are there to ask the questions, record the answers and leave.  The next higher HQ is then
responsible for directing remediation, and its not supposed to happen during the inspection.

[Flying Pig]

What Wing are you in?

[Nathan]

My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections.

I think you're looking at it backward. 

We don't do SUIs so that the people on the inspection team can learn something.  They are there to use their experience within the program to evaluate the unit that they are inspecting and hopefully while they are doing that pass on some of what they are learned to that inspecting unit.

True, but the point of the cadet program is to ensure that the cadets are learning and progressing in the cadet program. Even a C/CC of a huge encampment is in a learning position.

Looking at it your way, I still try to figure out how a cadet doing an inspection is going to be valid. Will the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.

I think the first point is the most important. I would always try to ensure even the higher ranking cadets were in a learning position, trying something new and gaining experience from doing it. That's our goal as senior member CP leaders. We want to pack skills into these cadets that they can master and bring out into "the real world." So when I look at inspection, I try to figure out what a cadet is learning from the experience. For instance, a cadet who is commanding a flight is not learning the same skills as a cadet commanding a whole encampment. The grander scale requires a great deal of new skills to be learned and utilized.

But is conducting a unit inspection different enough from conducting any other inspection that it would be worth spending time on it? Is the checklist for a unit inspection going to require some sort of different skill that isn't covered by a uniform checklist? If not, then is it worth spending the time doing, especially if the cadets cannot do anything more than provide advice that will, for the most part, fall on deaf ears?

And even if the senior leadership was willing to listen to the advice of the cadet inspectors, is this going to be any different than what comes up in a GOOD CAC meeting? From what I understand, the CAC is supposed to do a bit of monitoring of the individual squadrons in terms of unit reports from each representative. If there are issues within any given squadron that the cadet perspective might be able to help solve, wouldn't these normally go through the CAC chain anyway? It sounds like the solution isn't to put cadets on the inspection teams, but rather strengthen the CAC program, and maybe ensure that the CAC takes time to review the CP portion of each unit inspection and see if they as an advisory body can offer any advice.

[RiverAux]

Will the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.

NO member of an SUI team has that power.  They report back to the IG who reports to the Wing Commander who has the authority to do just about anything if the squadron doesn't fix the problems identified in the SUI as they are supposed to. 

[Eclipse]

Will the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.

NO member of an SUI team has that power.  They report back to the IG who reports to the Wing Commander who has the authority to do just about anything if the squadron doesn't fix the problems identified in the SUI as they are supposed to.

Correct.  As we have to keep reminding people, IG's have zero authority over anything - they are not the "Secret Police of CAP".  Their entire job is to investigate and report.  Period.  Any authority they may have comes from some other hat in their bag, and in most cases they should not put it on during the inspection.

One asterisk I'd put on that would be if the Commander(s) and/or staff of the next higher HQ are also the inspection team, in which case
for the sake of expedience, those inspectors could make suggestions and help fix things, however that's a minefield, because there really should be an inspection and score first, with remediation later.

The pitfall to IG's helping to "fix things" is that they are not in the chain, nor involved in the programs of the respective unit, and they may well suggest subjective remediation that conflicts with established SOPs for that Group or wing, because they have a different opinion about "x".

In fact, in some cases, something an IG indicates as a "finding" (requiring remediation), may not even be a required part of the program.

[Short Field]

Then there some senior members who could not supervise a trash can in to a corner

So how does that make it ok for cadets to be on SUIs?  Some senior members drive drunk - does that mean its ok for cadets to drive drunk as well?   Duh.....

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

Appearances.

Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.

What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?

Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.

Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.

That is just my two cents...

If you were to ask a cadet to evaluate a senior member who has been performing his area of specialty longer than the cadet has been alive, I can see how the senior member would be justifiably insulted and feel he'd been shown a lack of respect.

The cadet, on the other hand, being elevated to a position he does not merit, has no right to feel insulted nor does he merit any special respect in this situation.

Being insulted by something like that, is pretty narrow minded, and way over the top. If a Cadet is sent to conduct an inspection, then there is some logical reason behind it.

For an example... If Major General sent a Cadet to conduct an inspection, not saying she would, but if she did, would you feel insulted? Maybe that Cadet was sent to conduct an inspection because he/she is mature enough to handle the responsibility, maybe because he/she is qualified to conduct that inspection.

With all due respect, Quiting because a Cadet inspected your squadron would be the most selfish, most closed minded, most incredibly illogical thing someone of CAP rank could do.

[NCRblues]

Lunsford,
Does your science teacher send you down the hall to inspect history class because you sometimes are in that class?

Would i be insulted? yes i would, because having a minor child who technically cant make any decision's for him/her self telling me i need to change things in my squadron would a slap in the face.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you look at it) cadets all across the nation lack the training and understanding to carry out an inspection like this. Even some senior members don't have the knowledge base to do this, i know i don't and cant pretend i do.

Everyone wants to talk about cadet elites attitudes after NCSA, well think about the attitudes that could (i stress could) come off a cadet on an inspection team. I don't like this at all, and would be very insulted if cadets inspected me.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

Lunsford,
Does your science teacher send you down the hall to inspect history class because you sometimes are in that class?

Would i be insulted? yes i would, because having a minor child who technically cant make any decision's for him/her self telling me i need to change things in my squadron would a slap in the face.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you look at it) cadets all across the nation lack the training and understanding to carry out an inspection like this. Even some senior members don't have the knowledge base to do this, i know i don't and cant pretend i do.

Everyone wants to talk about cadet elites attitudes after NCSA, well think about the attitudes that could (i stress could) come off a cadet on an inspection team. I don't like this at all, and would be very insulted if cadets inspected me.

If you have read my posts earlier... I stated that I am against Cadets conducting Inspections due to Cadet Ranking. But my point I am trying to get across is, how illogical it would be to quit your CAP Career because a Cadet came and conducted an inspection. That's not only bad looking to your peers, but it is a bad example to set for Cadets.

[Hawk200]

After reviewing P52-14 and R52-16, I find nothing in the SDA concerning cadets performing, assisting or even attending an SUI in an Inspector capacity. It's not included in cadet training in any way, shape, or form.

Inspectors are trained and appointed to perform their duties, which includes training in a specialty track, something not available to cadets. Cadets do have the opportunities for training and receive a specialty track rating once turning senior, but the Inspector track is not one of them. The positions are not about maturity or even leadership.

Can a cadet handle it? Don't know. Don't even care. Justifying it with unlikely hypotheticals is a waste of time. There are plenty of seniors available to fill Inspector positions anyway, so the use of cadets isn't needed nor even needs to be considered.

So, to answer the original question: "Should cadets be allowed to conduct SUI interviews", the answer is no.

[flyguy06]

No, they shouldnt.