Firearm training

[MIKE]

The bling: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars

The full packet.   Can't wear the patch on the uniform though: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Skill%20Rating%20Packets

Edited to add the really important bit:

11 Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge (Earned in accordance with NRA program.) (Cadets only) Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an outergarment. Women: in the same position as specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath the wings).

[Spike]

^ Wow.  Thanks Mike.  I am going to look into this now. 

[Smithsonia]

Might I suggest CMP Garand Matches:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Competitions/john_c_garand_match.htm

Matches are held all over the country and any good rifle club will sponsor several per year.

These matches are held locally. These are held to CMP Military Range Safety Standards and while doing so it usually includes a 1 hour safety lecture, 20 minutes of practicum on the range (safety, protocols, and mechanical operation of the rifle) then 2 plus hours of positional target shooting using Garand M1s, 1903 Springfields, M1 Carbines, Enfield 1917, etc. These matches are military, history, firearms, safety, highly regulated and very engaging.

I usually only invite cadets that have at least a NRA course and some range experience. These rifles kick a bit and the lighter lads can get sore. I've taken several cadets from Wuzafuzz's squadron and they loved it.

When cadets walk away with their target patched with 50 good shots... they are proud and happy as retrievers with a new ball.

[cap235629]

As long as Marine JROTC isnt there......everyone else might have a shot a second place.

I was on our MCJROTC rifle team in High School.  We had an indoor rifle range and armory in the school, in MASSACHUSETTS!

Unfortunately the program was closed after 30 years for lack of membership.  Kids just didn't want to sign up for JROTC anymore.

OBTW, as a result of my training in JROTC I qualified expert with every weapon the Army let me qualify with.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

All part of the mandatory NRA training. The three safety rules are gone over at each and every training session and practice.

I KNOW the safety rules are discussed.  I think, however, that it is wrong to consider the rifle a piece of sporting equipment.  It IS a weapon, and to separate the fact that rifles are designed as killing devices trivializes their nature. 

I guess my point is that a baseball bat CAN be used as a weapon, but it was not designed as such.  A rifle was designed as a weapon, but under some conditions can be used for sport as well.

[Johnny Yuma]

Might I suggest CMP Garand Matches:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Competitions/john_c_garand_match.htm

Matches are held all over the country and any good rifle club will sponsor several per year.

These matches are held locally. These are held to CMP Military Range Safety Standards and while doing so it usually includes a 1 hour safety lecture, 20 minutes of practicum on the range (safety, protocols, and mechanical operation of the rifle) then 2 plus hours of positional target shooting using Garand M1s, 1903 Springfields, M1 Carbines, Enfield 1917, etc. These matches are military, history, firearms, safety, highly regulated and very engaging.

I usually only invite cadets that have at least a NRA course and some range experience. These rifles kick a bit and the lighter lads can get sore. I've taken several cadets from Wuzafuzz's squadron and they loved it.

When cadets walk away with their target patched with 50 good shots... they are proud and happy as retrievers with a new ball.

+100

Trust me, take your cadets to a CMP M1 garand clinic and you'll come back with a van load of ecstatic kids.

The Army Marksmanship Unit, USMC Weapons Training battalion and the All-Guard (NGB) teasm all do some serious recruiting at Camp Perry every year, the home of the National Championships.

AMU is good duty. Guys have been known to serve their entire careers in the AMU. They also do a lot more than shoot matches, like research and development, marksmanship instruction, public affairs and representing the Army.

USMC team is a 3 year billet, but Marines who take National Championships get automatic promotions. IIRC one little gal from Utah took the Interservice matches, the National CMP LEG match and NRA High Woman shooter and made Staff Sergeant before she turned 21!

Air Force and Navy used to have fulltime shooting teams, but now its a voluntary TAD job. Kinda sad.

Camp Perry also provides things like the Small Arms Firing School, where civilians get ran through the entire M16 qualification course. Junior shooters can also attend the 2 day marksmanship clinic held by the USMC.

Special Junior matches, called the Whistler Boy, are set up for 2 man teams of junior to compete against each other. These are held in both smallbore and highpower events.

There's also the rattle battle, 6 man combat match where your 6 man team gets a couple hundred rounds of ammo, engages 8 targets and tries to fire as many bullets into silhouettes as they can from 600 yards away in 60 seconds. Whatever's left is fired from 500, the 300, etc.

I'm really surprised that CAP hasn't done much with this. There's boatloads of JROTC teams up there shooting every year.

[Smithsonia]

Katch;
I couldn't agree Less with your note on "all guns are weapons." Weapon includes intention. Baseball bats, golf clubs, knives have intended uses other than to kill or maim. It is only if you swing for the head when angry is YOUR intention assumed. Guns are the same.

My rifles are for paper targets, only. My shotguns are for game birds. Therefore, I have no intention (to kill or maim) in some of my guns and I have intention attached to others. Murder is an act of intention. The gun is incapable of acquiring intention. Intention is the acts of humans only. That's why guns never go to prison. Only people do.

An officer of the law does not carry a weapon. When he draws his service pistol and announces his intention, "Stop Police!" he is announcing his intention. If a suspect runs from the policeman, then he is obliged to chase, instead of just shooting the guy in the butt. Self Defense caveats aside.

In this case a policeman's sidearm, when worn on the hip, is the same as his badge; "a sign of civil authority." It says that we as a society trust this officer with deadly force. It does not mean he can shoot anyone he dislikes, except under defined and highly particular circumstances. If he screws this up he can go to jail for murder. There are officers serving time right now because they messed this up.

To not know this is to do disservice to the language and to those who serve and protect. There is a very good reason for this. In the Army you can walk up to an enemy and slit his throat, shoot him in the head, or blow him into confetti and it's all War. In a civil society you can NOT walk up and shoot a cop and say, "I was afraid for my life, so I declare the killing of an officer as an act of self defense." Although, it has been tried by defendants except in the case of Claude Dallas killing Bill Pogue and Conley Elms I have never seen it work.

The military is not under the same obligation by the way. They can a do shoot enemies in the back all the day. Rules of engagement caveats aside. Armies operate under a completely different set of rules. Everything they carry that goes bang is a weapon and intent is vested the moment they lock and load.

I teach and train this for anyone who'll listen. There are police, military, and even lawyers who don't understand these differences. Anyone reading this thread can now not declare the same. 

You and I usually agree. We don't on this one.

[Ned]

Ed,

Non concur.

A firearm is not " symbol of authority" for law enforcement officers.  The badge is.

Some law enforcement officers are armed, some are not.  Some are armed sometimes, and not at others.  But they are still law enforcement officers under the law.

And generally speaking, law enforecement officers have no more right to use deadly force than private citizens in the same situation.  Usually to protect their lives or the lives of others.

As a former police officer and a retired Army officer, my recollection is that the rules of engagement are in most instances pretty much the same.  As a cop, if I was in a gun fight with a murder suspect, it really didn't matter if I shot him/her in the front or the back, as long as I was lawfully using deadly force.  (I only discharged my weapon off the range once)  If anything, I had more restrictions on my use of force as an Army guy than I did as a cop.

Guns are guns - they are not a symbol of anything.  They are a tool used by millions of Americans every day.  Some are cops, some soldiers, but most are civilians.

And as a cop, I carried lots of weapons.  One or more firearms, baton, pepper spray, taser, and a big metal flashlight.  The only reason I lugged around all that stuff was to use it to protect myself or others. 

Respectfully,

Ned Lee

[Smithsonia]

Ned;
Thanks for proving my points. Although, that was not likely your intention. I appreciate it.

[Ned]

Ed,

I'm glad that I was able to reinforce your sterotypes in all three catagories: police, military, and lawyers who "don't understand these differences."

But rather than merely responding with disdain and condecension, I thought you might want to have an actual discussion.

Apparently I was wrong (again.)

Ned Lee
Clueless lawyer, cop, and military guy.

[NCRblues]

Ed,
I must disagree with you. As a law Enforcement officer in the state of Missouri my sidearm is in no way a symbol of authority. The badge is the symbol of authority, that is what the state and federal governments say as well. In order to carry my firearm on or off duty I have to have on me, my badge and the state identification card that identifies me as a Law enforcement officer. The firearm or any other "weapon" I carry is there to defend myself or others, in fear of life or limb... that's it.

[Smithsonia]

Ned;
If you look up the Supreme Court work on the subject when the Clinton Administration tried to ban numerous types of guns in the 90's... then gun manufacturers actually made the exact points that I made above.

Weapon: Definition. Implement or device that is intended to kill or maim. The reason that the manufacturers won... or at least were able to defend their position was that word "intended." The manufacturers never use the term weapon. They use the term (in promotional materials, sales brochures, etc) firearm, gun, rifle, pistol, handgun, etc... but never weapon, when talking about guns for sale to the public or peace officers. BECAUSE, the manufacturer can not apply "intention" at the factory. There is no manufacturing process for "Intention." Intention is applied only by the user. Intention is the act of humans, solely.

That is why the Clinton Administration was able to ban certain guns as weapons. This is known as the assault "weapons" ban. Those guns that carry bayonet lugs, big clips, fully automatic, etc. These items can only be considered "weapons." These items were not considered less safe but items that have the "intention" declared. As in, Military style weapons.

It is the current law of the land. OR at least it was when I worked for the manufacturers regarding the topic up through '01. Regarding saving others or yourself... it has nothing to do with carrying a gun. Quit confusing carry with intention. Killing is an act of intention. Carrying is not. Drawing, announcing, and firing is an act of intention.

Additionally, I am sure that you missed the caveats that I expressed above regarding self-defense and rules of engagement because these didn't help the points that you were attempting to make.

If you review the arguments, the rulings, the congressional testimony, and the ban on certain military style "weapons," you'll find your mistake. I can only explain so much of this within the limits of space and time on this thread.

The Police Chiefs Association was in Kansas City several years ago (1999 I think). I gave a lecture on this topic. I'm sorry the Chiefs didn't get this information to some of the rank and file.

If you'd been called to the stand regarding an officer involved shooting... likely a lawyer would have called your attention to the difference. In this little word "Weapon" and "intention" hangs many careers and many police departments reputations.

Strangely, Peace Officers get this wrong so often it is confounding to me. It changes nothing about your procedures. In fact it changes nothing but how you testify on the stand. BUT, as far as I know... it has been this way since the 60s, that is the 1860s. It just got to be a hot topic in the 90s, the 1990s. Although it did come up after the Kent State Shootings and retraining military riot teams for domestic situations.

Hunting shotguns/Rifles are weapons - intended to kill or maim (in my case pheasants, elk, quail, and if it isn't too cold ducks and geese. Target rifles are not weapons. At least mine are not. Mine shoot paper targets and are too heavy and not correctly sighted for field work.

"Weapon" is a scary word. It is usually used by the media in loose ways. It has been used in a loose way on this thread. I prefer to not be scary - just factual.

[Short Field]

"This is my weapon, this is my gun, this is for killing, this is for ..."   Back in another life, my USMC DI was quick to beat this into us.  I love to plink as much as the next person and don't have a problem with firearms training.  But it is a weapon.

[Smithsonia]

Short Field.
I am not a Marine but in Full Metal Jacket - the line was, "this is my rifle, this is my gun"...etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xj4W2TGQPI

If it is a "weapon" that you shoot then it is so by your "intention." Not mine. Not by the Manufacturers. If you ever accidentally shoot someone... this will come up at your trial. I wouldn't care to work with your defense team. The Dick Cheney caveat aside.

If you are plinking cans then you are NOT intending to kill or maim. You are shooting a gun. If you turn it on your plinking buddies it becomes a weapon. Because, quite to their surprise I am sure, you have changed your "intention."

In this way... the act of shooting, of not shooting, and the consequences of these actions/in-actions becomes the shooters and not the gun's responsibility. Not the gun's manufacturer, either, not society in general, not the devil, etc. Personal responsibility is assigned through the reading of these "intentions." Intentions are plans, mind-sets, reasonings, etc.

Plexico Buress will likely have this come up at his trial and he shot himself. His answer to the prosecutors question; "what were your intentions in buying, carrying, carrying this gun on the night you shot yourself, Mr. Buress?" Mr. Buress' answer can/will mean a great deal of difference in the time he eventually serves.

Peace Officer who carry with "intention" (to kill or maim), instead of carry for purpose (serve and "protect". Protect includes "defend" and defend includes deadly force) are the ones that sit behind bars wondering where they went wrong. They went wrong because their intention was to "kill" and not to defend. Clarity in the words speeds the actions. These actions are trained in precise order and for expressed purposes. To fulfill each link in the logic chain and assure compliance with the laws in the use of deadly force.

[MIKE]

Ding.