Firearm training

[flydoggy]

Does CAP allow training on firearms for cadets and seniors?Why?

[JC004]

CAPR 52-16 provides all of the information on firearms training.  Why what?

[Hawk200]

Not for any type of CAP function. Some courses are allowed, but only under certain conditions.

[Airrace]

 There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:
(a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
(b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
(c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.




Here is the link to 52-16:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R052_016_9D037830938CC.pdf

[Eclipse]

And CAP, per se, doesn't provide it, there are simply provisions for allowing it on either host's (i.e. military, NRA) or unit's nickel.

[Major Carrales]

I imagine firearms training would be provided to cadets as a familiarity with the weapons for "safety's" sake.  Better for a young person be trained in the proper use of a weapon by trained professionals (as described in the regulations) than to toy around with weapons haphazardly.

My introduction to weaponry came from parents and grandparents on at the ranch.  They taught us respect for all firearms (as in how to respect a weapon for what it is, a potentially deadly tool of hunting or self-defense). 

These days I have heard of students purchasing weapons from friends in the alleys of the town and then depend on films and television to teach them their usage. What ends up happening is that these youth end up with improperly maintained weapons, poor skills and, even worse, the "courage" of a person with a gun mixed with the chutzpah of youth.

[jimmydeanno]

Why?  Firearms training provides an excellent training environment to learn discipline and attention to detail.  There is a great opportunity to show marked progress and achievement.  Plus, its fun.

[Johnny Yuma]

Why?  Firearms training provides an excellent training environment to learn discipline and attention to detail.  There is a great opportunity to show marked progress and achievement.  Plus, its fun.

Not to mention that much of what cadets learn about the theories of flight also apply to ballistics as well.

[majdomke]

I imagine firearms training would be provided to cadets as a familiarity with the weapons for "safety's" sake.  Better for a young person be trained in the proper use of a weapon by trained professionals (as described in the regulations) than to toy around with weapons haphazardly.

My introduction to weaponry came from parents and grandparents on at the ranch.  They taught us respect for all firearms (as in how to respect a weapon for what it is, a potentially deadly tool of hunting or self-defense). 

These days I have heard of students purchasing weapons from friends in the alleys of the town and then depend on films and television to teach them their usage. What ends up happening is that these youth end up with improperly maintained weapons, poor skills and, even worse, the "courage" of a person with a gun mixed with the chutzpah of youth.

ahhh.... you've used the forbidden "W" word... at least that's my NRA instructor side talking. We teach firearms training, not "W" training. There is a difference of course. In the training our squadron does, we follow the NRA Rifle Course and then upon completion are now working on the Winchester/NRA Light-Rifle Competition Program. Out of 32 cadets, I have about 14 on the marksmanship team. Of course having a wing commanders blessing is essential unless you are dual-charted with BSA. The hardest part, aside from approval, is finding somewhere that will allow you to practice (free preferably) and then having someone qualified. CAWG had an NRA Instructors Course at our last Cadet Program Conference and this really helped get me going in the right direction. I came away with invaluable info on how the program worked, was fully qualified, and got it off the ground within 45 days. We were lucky enough to find a local sportsman club that sponsored us by providing free range time, use of club .22's and free use of ammo and targets. What a blessing this has become. It's one of those added activities that can certainly seal the deal with perspective cadets. We joined the CMP and NRA as official clubs too. I'm happy to provide further info if needed...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am also an NEA-trained instructor, but one trained by NRA's Law Enforcement Activities Division.  We still call them "Weapons."  I have heard that NRA hunter-safety side instructors avoid the use of the "W" word, but I find that disingenuous.

We train our cadets to march like troops, talk like troops, and do all kinds of other things like troops.  We do this so that when they become troops, they will have a leg up in important troop skills.

Why teach them to march, which will NOT save their lives or the lives of their comrades, unless we also teach them to shoot, which will do so?  If teaching a 15-year old the fundamentals of marksmanship makes him better able to absorb the lessons of combat shooting at 18, we have done our job.

Our job is to prepare him to be of service... to prepare him to do HIS job!

[majdomke]

Simply put... because CAP's function is not to train cadets to kill. Teaching self-discipline and teamwork are. If we start billing it as weapons training then good luck getting the wing cc to approve or the public for that matter. A weapon is used for self-defense or offensively. Precisely why we shoot paper targets with round bullseyes and not silhouettes.

[majdomke]

p.s. I now owe my team 50 cents for saying the "W" word twice...

[ol'fido]

One solution to the firearms training dilema is the use of EST or Engagement Simulator Training. We have used this for the past 4 years at our summer encampment. Unfortunately, this year the IL ARNG didn't have a trainer available so we weren't able to do it this time. However, next year, if a trainer is available, we will again be offering this activity. This lets the cadets learn something and the only cost is a little electricity.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Simply put... because CAP's function is not to train cadets to kill. Teaching self-discipline and teamwork are. If we start billing it as weapons training then good luck getting the wing cc to approve or the public for that matter. A weapon is used for self-defense or offensively. Precisely why we shoot paper targets with round bullseyes and not silhouettes.

That is the disingenuous part.

A rifle is designed with one purpose.  To kill.  A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

[Major Lord]

Right, with firearms training, we are just teaching Cadets  to shoot....we can let the DI's teach them how to kill after we have done a good job with the basics of marksmanship. First things first!  After all, this isn't something that they should have to learn off the street or from movies! ( They would all be turning their "boom-sticks" sideways and calling each other "dog". This would be unacceptable and not meet the encampment standard!

Major Lord
p.s. Raise your hand if a firearm has ever saved your life!

[cap235629]

RAISES HAND.

And also have been on the receiving end=NOT FUN

[Trung Si Ma]

p.s. Raise your hand if a firearm has ever saved your life!

Do I raise both hands if it has happened more than once?  What do I raise for three or more times?

[majdomke]

RAISES HAND.

And also have been on the receiving end=NOT FUN

ditto

[majdomke]

A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

All part of the mandatory NRA training. The three safety rules are gone over at each and every training session and practice.

[Major Lord]

The NRA training course is not mandatory, we do have a couple of other options. The NRA course has little to do with shooting to live, but its good groundwork.

Major Lord