Should smoking be banned while in CAP uniform?

[MIKE]

How 'bout this: DoD Won't Ban War-zone Smoking

[RiverAux]

"He knows that the situation they are confronting is stressful enough as it is," Morrell said, noting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. "I don't think he is interested in adding to the stress levels by taking away one of the few outlets they may have to relieve stress."

Taking them cadets on o-rides sure can be stressful...

[MIKE]

That wasn't the point of my posting it, read the whole thing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

As Patton said:  "An officer is always on parade."

We should exhibit those qualities which we want our cadets and junior officers to follow.

Banning ALL smoking in uniform?  No.  Smoking only in clearly appropriate situations among other officers?  OK.

About the same rules we apply to alcohol use should be applied to smoking. 

[Gunner C]

As Patton said:  "An officer is always on parade."

We should exhibit those qualities which we want our cadets and junior officers to follow.

Banning ALL smoking in uniform?  No.  Smoking only in clearly appropriate situations among other officers?  OK.

About the same rules we apply to alcohol use should be applied to smoking.

As always John - the voice of reason.  :clap:

[Daniel]

why shouldn't we? drinking pop in my squadron is

[DC]

why shouldn't we? drinking pop in my squadron is

There's a difference between stopping adults from doing something that is personally harmful and nasty, and keeping a bunch of teenagers from getting hyper on sugar and caffeine. Does you squadron prohibit SMs from drinking coffee?

There would probably be a mutiny if they did... 

[Daniel]

Npthin' but water - my squadrons unoffical motto

BUT anywho i'm around smokers all day at my house so I'm due for lung cancer anyway no matter who smokes what in uniform

[Smithsonia]

Kach;
Your Patton quote "an officer is always on parade." Was made by a man who smoked cigarettes and cigars, chewed tobacco, drank pretty heavy, peed in public, was abusive and officially reprimanded for it on 3 occasions, dipped snuff, and cursed profusely. So I guess he was right but politically incorrect, a hypocrite, or at least an intemperate model.

I smoke a pipe. I try to do this out of sight of cadets. I don't curse much and never pee in public. Good quote. Bad choice of archetype.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach;
Your Patton quote "an officer is always on parade." Was made by a man who smoked cigarettes and cigars, chewed tobacco, drank pretty heavy, peed in public, was abusive and officially reprimanded for it on 3 occasions, dipped snuff, and cursed profusely. So I guess he was right but politically incorrect, a hypocrite, or at least an intemperate model.

I smoke a pipe. I try to do this out of sight of cadets. I don't curse much and never pee in public. Good quote. Bad choice of archetype.

I know about Patton.  That's exactly why I like him.

"Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol."

[Smithsonia]

Kach;
Obviously we both like Patton. BUT, he couldn't make it in CAP with cadets present. Eisenhower, King, Halsey, LeMay, MacArthur would all have to curb personal habits to make it as a CAP Commander now. So the real questions are: are they lesser men for it? Or are we lesser men and women for being intolerant of their habits.

I think it is the latter, and unfortunately so. As I said - I smoke a pipe. But then I am Irish, a writer, have white hair, and therefore an Jurassic cliche'.

[RiverAux]

Obviously we both like Patton. BUT, he couldn't make it in CAP with cadets present. Eisenhower, King, Halsey, LeMay, MacArthur would all have to curb personal habits to make it as a CAP Commander now. So the real questions are: are they lesser men for it? Or are we lesser men and women for being intolerant of their habits.

As I recall they were leading adults, not 13 year olds. 

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux; Funny you should point that out. Maj. Gen. John Curry was Director of the Denver Council of the Boy Scouts after the War. So some of these guys did both.

Cadets (and their Parents) have much to say about how their children are treated. I don't usually deal with cadets - I am in a Senior Squadron. That said, a tough IC on a long mission with a testy attitude will turn the crews of Seniors into 13 year olds.

I was in a SAREX last weekend and I got plenty of calls from little boys after it was over about this and that disrespectful thing. SO, while we want to think we could handle Patton. Maybe we can't handle the truth.

Me? I got yelled at too, and it was corrective not belittling. So it's no big deal what so ever.

[Rotorhead]

Kach;
Your Patton quote "an officer is always on parade." Was made by a man who smoked cigarettes and cigars, chewed tobacco, drank pretty heavy, peed in public, was abusive and officially reprimanded for it on 3 occasions, dipped snuff, and cursed profusely. So I guess he was right but politically incorrect, a hypocrite, or at least an intemperate model.

I smoke a pipe. I try to do this out of sight of cadets. I don't curse much and never pee in public. Good quote. Bad choice of archetype.

I know about Patton.  That's exactly why I like him.

"Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol."

His actual quote, not the one from the movie, is, ""Only a pimp in a New Orleans whorehouse or a tin-horn gambler would carry a pearl-handled pistol."

[Gunner C]

Kach;
Obviously we both like Patton. BUT, he couldn't make it in CAP with cadets present. Eisenhower, King, Halsey, LeMay, MacArthur would all have to curb personal habits to make it as a CAP Commander now. So the real questions are: are they lesser men for it? Or are we lesser men and women for being intolerant of their habits.

I think it is the latter, and unfortunately so. As I said - I smoke a pipe. But then I am Irish, a writer, have white hair, and therefore an Jurassic cliche'.

All of them would need to change even to be a military officer - swearing, smoking, drinking to excess, etc are now career killers for officers.  Curt LeMay would have to change all of these, plus loose about 100 pounds or he'd be forced out.

Times change as do societal norms.  Smoking is no longer a societal norm and an officer needs to conform to them - yes an officer is always on parade . . . the parade changes with the times (for the better IMO).

[Stonewall]

CAP Officers of the 60s and 70s would have to change their habits to make it in CAP today.  Heck, CAP officers of the pre-CPPT kind would have to make some changes as well.  In fact, many DID have to curb their habits when CPPT showed it's face in what, 1989, 1990?

You guys are talking MacAuthur and Eisenhower.  I'm thinking the officers of the Vietnam era would have to make some dramatic changes to cut it in today's military.  I look back to when I joined the Army in 1991 and had platoon and first sergeants with BSM(V) from Vietnam.  Those guys didn't care what officer was around, especially a brand new 2LT.

No different than civil society, the military (and CAP) changes.  Habits that were once the norm become frowned upon.

Some compare chewing gum in uniform to smoking in uniform.  I've been told it looks unprofessional to chew gum in uniform, military and CAP.  I agree, it does sort of look bad.  The difference is, I think, is that chewing gum is a lot more discreet than smoking.

[Smithsonia]

Stonewall;
I think Cadet Protection is good. Pedophilia has long been outlawed. Pedophilia has not changed as a taboo. Instituting training for the purpose of explanation and clarification
of this issue is not an attempt to change a personal habit. It was designed to breakdown what was otherwise a "don't ask don't tell" kind of social acceptance among CAP members who thought they could avoid the issue through disinterest. As in... that is none of my business.

Linking Cadet Protection to smoking is the same as the other side of this issue declaring you guys "smoking Nazis." It is a mistreatment of the issue for the purposes rhetorical splendor.

I like to take long hot showers. Of course while in the military there was a prohibition because of the water waste. So I curbed that habit for reason. The military had standing.
Now... I take long hot showers. I pay the water bill. I own the water heater.

I am a grown man. I know the elements of decorum. I am responsible for my own health, health insurance, well being, and decorum. When CAP begins to pay for my health insurance, treat me at military hospitals, and give me free medications... then CAP should have something to say about this personal habit.

So what is prohibited by the military for the purpose of savings should not be transferred to CAP when the interest in cost savings has no standing.

The lack of standing should not be confused by the opinion of others. If so then I'll need to check how close you shave, how clean is your uniform, how sweet is your breath, etc.
For those items can create a personal offense to me by you. 

What works in the military doesn't necessarily link to society at large. The reason the military is instituting the policy is for health care cost savings. The reason you are asking CAP to institute the policy is because of your personal disinterest (or disgust). As such, you have no standing other than as a subjective reaction.

Those who will raise the second hand smoke issue would be well to consider that this issue is not part of this discussion. Certainly we are not speaking of sharing my pipe smoke with you. If I was blowing smoke then you would have standing. CAP doesn't have standing.

[Lt Oliv]

I would fully support a smoking ban while in uniform

......as soon as the AF institutes the same for Active Duty and Reservists.

We are straying a bit into whether a person has a right to smoke.  There are lots of rights.  However, when you represent a group or organization, they get to choose what public image they want.  So you can be keen on Jesus, but when you are in a uniform for Uncle Sam out at sea, in the battlefield or in the skies, you have to keep it "non-denominational."

As for "where in the Constitution it says you have the right to smoke" I will ask you to show me where the law tells a person they cannot utilize a legally purchased, government regulated consumable product.

No one is saying you can't smoke.  We aren't even discussing whether the government should be able to big brother such a law on us as a whole.  What we're talking about is this, and to me it is clear and simple.

Should you be able to smoke in a CAP Uniform?

I say "Yes."  Because you can smoke in an AF, Navy, Army or Marine uniform (provided you aren't walking while you do it). 

If the AF wants to change its rule, then we should follow. 

The ONLY smoking ban I would ever even come close to supporting, would be smoking in front of cadets.  This is due to personal experience more than anything.

Back when I was a Boy Scout, I spent my formative years learning how to bait a hook from a guy who spilled out of his khaki shirt and had to find a place to set down his beer and cigarette before he could handle the worm.

Don't smoke in front of other people's kids should be common sense.

But don't expect volunteers to surpass military standards.

[RiverAux]

But don't expect volunteers to surpass military standards.

I rarely find myself on the side of the "CAP is different from the AF so we don't necessarily need to do things just like the AF" crowd, but this is one of them. 

[RiverAux]

Since image is one of the reasons that this should be considered, thought I'd put out some facts. 

According to Gallup, 40% of Americans say that smoking makes them view a person more negatively.  48% of non-smokers would say this as well. 
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108925/Impact-Smoking-Being-Overweight-Persons-Image.aspx

Does this negatively towards the individual smoker rub off onto the organization they represent while in uniform?  No data and might be a bit of a stretch, however that CAP smoker may not be who you want lighting up anywhere near your recruiting display as he might not be the best ambassador at that time.