Are we or are we not the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary

[JohnKachenmeister]

What I find interesting is the AF expects us to perform to their level in most every area---as if we were doing this full time. We get audited, inspected, evaluated, etc by the Air Force constantly. And it is the AF that provides most of our funding, yet we are only part of the family when they see fit. Could it be that too often we have acted in interests contrary to the best interests of the AF or done something to embarrass our parent?? That's why they prefer us to only be associated on a part time basis. (Not withstanding the change in the law)

Also, I've found thatless than half of the AF folks I talk to have ever heard of CAP and even less know we are the AF Aux. I guess we are not worth mentioning to the airmen.

We're really not.

I'm sure if you prefer, the Air Force would be happy to withdraw te bulk of its funding.

You got a source for that fact, or is that simply another personal opinion?

[wingnut]

These documents are pretty old now and not generally relevant to the current situation.  Probably every individual involved on both sides of the house has moved on.  They are interesting from a historical point of view, but thats about it.  Should they also post the GAO study on CO Wing morale from the 1970s in a place of prominence on the NHQ site?

Excuse me but a GAO report from 2000 is very relevent to CAP of today, many of the current guidelines from the Air Force used these documents as a basis for the current CAP-USAF relationship. The audits Of Aircraft usage, Wing finance irregularities are all part of the current oversight. History is not to be overlooked. On the contrary as an Adult, CAP members should understand the Air Forces ethos for being such a watchdog. Much of our problems are not new news, some of these issues have "festered" like a rotten wound.

[SAR-EMT1]

Sorry Guys
But when I am flying along and I know that an f-16 is on our 6 and he is looking but can't see us yet, well I DO FEEL LIKE I AM PART OF THE AIR FORCE TEAM.

I can tell you that when my dad flew for CAP in the 1960s, he carried several forms of CAP ID, one said that while he was flying a misiion for the United State Air Force he was to be considered a member of the United States Air Force, signed by the CC of the USAF. I swear I will find that ID and post it.

I wish they still gave us those. Could come in very handy considering some stories Ive heard dealing with 3am ELT hunts. Older CAP membership cards asked folks to help us on missions, now we have a mission statment... 

[RiverAux]

Excuse me but a GAO report from 2000 is very relevent to CAP of today

Not when they made major changes to the entire governing structure of CAP including changes to federal laws to address the primary concerns in the report.  There is some unfinished business in it, but not much. 

What they need is for the GAO to see if the changes that were made were effective in solving some of these issues.

[JayT]

Sorry Guys
But when I am flying along and I know that an f-16 is on our 6 and he is looking but can't see us yet, well I DO FEEL LIKE I AM PART OF THE AIR FORCE TEAM.

I can tell you that when my dad flew for CAP in the 1960s, he carried several forms of CAP ID, one said that while he was flying a misiion for the United State Air Force he was to be considered a member of the United States Air Force, signed by the CC of the USAF. I swear I will find that ID and post it.

I wish they still gave us those. Could come in very handy considering some stories Ive heard dealing with 3am ELT hunts. Older CAP membership cards asked folks to help us on missions, now we have a mission statment... 

Just curious

What good would it do for you?

If we're not 'members of the USAF' while on missions, then what good would it do?

[Hawk200]

If we're not 'members of the USAF' while on missions, then what good would it do?

Depends on the mission. The only legitimate ELT hunts are gonna be AFRCC ones, which are going to be Federal missions. In such a case, showing an ID card with request for assistance from proper authorities shows that the person is doing Federal work.

Your local Sherriff's office isn't going to be able to activate you for one. They've got to go through AFRCC like everyone else.

[alamrcn]

It sounds like you want to create a relationship thats not really there buy changing our name........
If we get called the Air Force Auxiliary, we're not going to automatically be closer to the Air Force.

Wasn't talking about changing any names in my post, just keeping the one we already have had for decades - call it a tag line or whatever you want, we still reamin Civil Air Patrol, United States Air Force Auxiliary for now.

But Ok... what's in a name anyway? So when we stop wearing the Air Force uniform, it won't matter because our relationship with them will not have changed. The uniform is just an "illusion" of the relationship we want to have - right? As long as their check keeps coming in, who cares!  [/sarcasm, obviously]

-Ace

[JayT]

It sounds like you want to create a relationship thats not really there buy changing our name........
If we get called the Air Force Auxiliary, we're not going to automatically be closer to the Air Force.

Wasn't talking about changing any names in my post, just keeping the one we already have had for decades - call it a tag line or whatever you want, we still reamin Civil Air Patrol, United States Air Force Auxiliary for now.

But Ok... what's in a name anyway? So when we stop wearing the Air Force uniform, it won't matter because our relationship with them will not have changed. The uniform is just an "illusion" of the relationship we want to have - right? As long as their check keeps coming in, who cares!  [/sarcasm, obviously]

-Ace

Yeah pretty much, thats what it is, an illusion.

[sarmed1]

However, my original point is that our dual status enables us to do things that we would otherwise be prohibited from doing if we were always acting as an agent of the AF.

I dont think thats exactly it, its more about the cost effectiveness of those mission being performed.  Though CD is a big time aircrew mission, I dont think that our entire status with the AF is dependent on those missions and concerns that there might be a posse commitus violation.  We are still not performing "police" duties.  Its still an observation and reporting type of thing, kind of like neighborhood watch. (ie being part of the local crime watch doesn not make you a officer in your local PD/SD)

Its what like $60 an hour for CAP vs how much for a helo (or fixed wing aircraft if the Air Force had them) or how much to pay Border Patrol or Customs agents to fly their fixed wing stuff for CN.

The AF has plenty of people to augment their hometown roles the way the CG Aux does with the USCG.  As much as many woudl like to be more a brother than a distant cousin it doesnt really help the AF out much, so why should they incurr the extra headache of time, money, effort, personnel etc to keep us in check 100% of the time when they only have to worry about it when and if they need it?

I admit it I like being part of the AF, but thats what I am in the Reserves for, sure it might be worth cool points to say im a Captain in the AF aux, but what exactly is it that proponents expect out of a full time aux status that we dont get now...both directions...to ours or the AF benefit?

mk

[SAR-EMT1]

However, my original point is that our dual status enables us to do things that we would otherwise be prohibited from doing if we were always acting as an agent of the AF.

I dont think thats exactly it, its more about the cost effectiveness of those mission being performed.  Though CD is a big time aircrew mission, I dont think that our entire status with the AF is dependent on those missions and concerns that there might be a posse commitus violation.  We are still not performing "police" duties.  Its still an observation and reporting type of thing, kind of like neighborhood watch. (ie being part of the local crime watch doesn not make you a officer in your local PD/SD)

Its what like $60 an hour for CAP vs how much for a helo (or fixed wing aircraft if the Air Force had them) or how much to pay Border Patrol or Customs agents to fly their fixed wing stuff for CN.

The AF has plenty of people to augment their hometown roles the way the CG Aux does with the USCG.  As much as many woudl like to be more a brother than a distant cousin it doesnt really help the AF out much, so why should they incurr the extra headache of time, money, effort, personnel etc to keep us in check 100% of the time when they only have to worry about it when and if they need it?

I admit it I like being part of the AF, but thats what I am in the Reserves for, sure it might be worth cool points to say im a Captain in the AF aux, but what exactly is it that proponents expect out of a full time aux status that we dont get now...both directions...to ours or the AF benefit?

mk

First off I think "FULL TIME AUX" is a bit of a misnomer.  - Seeing as we arent in uniform 24/7, 40 hours a week. - But I understand and agree with the concept of the intent and language.

One might expect a higher level of professionalism, in all its aspects: dress, integrity, attitude, organizational knowledge etc... (though that might take some work on our part first)

Then again, [OFF TOPIC]  to be considered Officers or to even have the military rank that we use, I still consider it imporant [ if only for propriety] that we as Senior Members have a Commission or Warrant from the USAF. - As it is the only validity for our shoulderboards is our membership card, but the membership card that has 2nd lt in front of our name didnt "make us" Officers now did it?

Let me flip the bit:
Should the USAF or the American people in general expect anything more of us that we dont already have at the table?
YMMV

[thp]

USAF sends us on missions. We help with their training. They tell us what to do, and what we can wear. So shouldn't be recognized as their aux.

[JayT]

USAF sends us on missions. We help with their training. They tell us what to do, and what we can wear. So shouldn't be recognized as their aux.

First off, we are recognized as the Air Force Auxiliary, under certain circumstances.

There's really is no difference between being the Full Time Aux and what we are now, beyond the egos of some members and their desire to put 'USAFAux' in their sig files.

I wouldn't even say the Air Force 'Tells us what to do' or 'Sends us on Missions' or 'Tells us what we can wear.'

If an Air Force Colonel told me to do something I didn't want to do, I could quite legally say 'No' to him. If I get a call at Three AM calling me up for a mission, I can again, say 'No Thanks.' There might be consequences on that end, but still.

Also, I'm free to never wear an Air Force uniform in my life.

[Short Field]

[I still consider it imporant [ if only for propriety] that we as Senior Members have a Commission or Warrant from the USAF. - As it is the only validity for our shoulderboards is our membership card, but the membership card that has 2nd lt in front of our name didnt "make us" Officers now did it?

They gave me my commission when I was appointed a 2Lt, I framed it, and it either hung from the wall in my house or was in a storage box for the rest of my career.  The only thing I ever showed to validate my rank was my ID card.  The commission was only a nice piece of paper.  What made me an Officer was the Authority and Responsibility that came with it.  What Authority and Responsibility do you expect a CAP commission to bring you?  And keep in mind that if Commissioned Officers fails in their responsibilities, they could face a court-martial.

[SAR-EMT1]

An officer derives his authority from several sources. the Commission and Oath are only two. But thats not my point, nor is a hunt for additional responsibility or getting saluted.

The original question was: what might come out of full time Aux status either to the benifit of CAP or the USAF.  I replied that to get that back would require we put more behind our being officers: better attention to uniforms, self disipline, integrity, professional knowledge etc.

  If we are officially Officers it might help in our bid for federally recognized job protection / job protection in every state, easier access to reimbusment for AFAMs and better support from local authorities during missions. (though putting the request for help onto the ID card again might help too)


The talk about the Commission or Warrant stems from my answer to the original question: By having a Warrant or Commission a SM might be better reminded of his responsibility to act professional, look professional, and so on. Likewise, dangling a Warrant as a carrott, might encourage that SM to pay more attention to his uniform, progress in education and training and act more professional.

The court martial bit only applies if we are under the UCMJ, which doesnt need to happen.

[DNall]

Actually, I'm more open to having us under UCMJ than getting any kind of federal commission. To be completely honest, the SECAF &/or President could issue a federal "Commission in the Auxiliary of the Air Force of the United States" and it what would that mean? You'd still be a CAP officer with the same (none) authority over mil personnel (based on your grade anyway). If you want to change it so our grade does cause them to be required to obey orders from CAP officers (that's a bit crazy to most people), then you have to significantly change our system to make our officers deserving & trained for that role, and add some alternative such as an enlisted corps.

[thp]

I meant they tell CAP what to do as a whole.