The Relevance of the Chaplain to CAP...

[Nomex Maximus]

The first time I went to a CAP meeting, the squadron that I was about to join had a chaplain. He was an area protestant pastor and a pilot as well. As the meeting started, the squadron commander asked the chaplain to give an opening invocation. I thought, to myself that this seems a bit odd as CAP is a government organization and therefore should be religiously neutral. Why then this invocation to God and Christ?

Now, for those of you who don't know, I am myself a Christian and in fact I once got halfway through a Master of Divinity degree at a conservative Presbyterian seminary before a Baptist seminary woman corrupted me and, ...well I have two daughters now. But that's another story. The point is that I myself am not opposed to having Chaplains do what they do, but I am wondering how CAP reconciles this in this day and age of radical secularism.

I have heard the line of reasoning here on Captalk that the chaplain is here to teach good decision making and not to preach the gospel. But that they do this - teach "good" decisionmaking -  somehow apart from the gospel... which sort of seems to eviscerate them of their one true power - the gospel.

And so a prospective member comes to a meeting of a government organized volunteer service and is presented with Christian religious language and prayers delivered by a minister. How does that affect the new member who may not be a Christian? And if the chaplain is told that he or she cannot teach the gospel, then what real good is he going to do? Empty advice to do good / think good / be good?  Seems like quite a contradiction going on here - CAP wants the good moral values and development that the Chaplain could bring, but cannot allow him to acknowledge the power that would truly enable those values and morals... or if it does, then it risks offense to those members who do not believe as the Chaplain does...

...so then what is the proper place, work and relevance of the Chaplain in officially secular CAP? 

--NM


 

[JohnKachenmeister]

The role of the chaplain in CAP and in the military is the same.  To provide for the spiritual guidance and comfort of the troops.  The chaplain is a valuable staff officer who can advise the commander on morale issues, and help the commander deal with personal probems of troops that might have an effect on the mission.

We DO designate Christian, Jewish, and most recently Muslim and Wiccan chaplains, but they are ALL trained in the rites and sensitivities of religions other than their own.  (Another big plus, when my company was mobilized for the First Gulf War, I had the chaplain instruct me and the troops in exactly what the difference was between a Sunni and a Shiite.  Near as I can figure, its like the difference between New York and New Jersey... important only to the people who live there.)

It is not inappropriate for a Christian chaplain to offer a prayer "In Jesus' name."   

[JayT]

(Another big plus, when my company was mobilized for the First Gulf War, I had the chaplain instruct me and the troops in exactly what the difference was between a Sunni and a Shiite.  Near as I can figure, its like the difference between New York and New Jersey... important only to the people who live there.)
 

You mean, life exists outside of New York?

[jeders]

I think I'll give my response here. Keep in mind though, I am a devout atheist.

I personally think that we should not have chaplains giving invocations at the beginning of anything, unless it is made optional. For example, when I did my basic encampment, there was a Catholic service and a general protestant service, but anyone who did not wish to attend did not have to. As long as when the invocation was done they said something along the lines of, "those that wish to participate," then it's fine.

Beyond that, I have no problem with chaplains teaching the gospel. That's what chaplains are there for.

[MIKE]

It is not inappropriate for a Christian chaplain to offer a prayer "In Jesus' name."

Not really non-denominational now is it?  This is something I think some CAP chaplains tend to have difficulty with.

Serving as a counselor and adviser is fine, as is providing for the worship needs for those who desire to participate, in the appropriate setting... but  mostly things just end up being awkward for everybody because the chaplain forgot he or she was in fact a chaplain.

[Short Field]

this seems a bit odd as CAP is a government organization

But not that odd for a nonprofit, 501(c)(3) corporation.  

While the atheists will disagree, it is always appropriate to began an endeavor by asking help from someone greather than we are.  A good chaplain keeps it non-denominational.  

Beyond that, I have no problem with chaplains teaching the gospel. That's what chaplains are there for.

Actually they are there to attend to our spiritual needs - plus play a large role in dealing with the family members of the people we are searching for.  They are not there to evangelize for their particular sect.

[RplnXbrnt]

The role of the chaplain in CAP and in the military is the same.  To provide for the spiritual guidance and comfort of the troops.  The chaplain is a valuable staff officer who can advise the commander on morale issues, and help the commander deal with personal probems of troops that might have an effect on the mission.

We DO designate Christian, Jewish, and most recently Muslim and Wiccan chaplains, but they are ALL trained in the rites and sensitivities of religions other than their own.  (Another big plus, when my company was mobilized for the First Gulf War, I had the chaplain instruct me and the troops in exactly what the difference was between a Sunni and a Shiite.  Near as I can figure, its like the difference between New York and New Jersey... important only to the people who live there.)

It is not inappropriate for a Christian chaplain to offer a prayer "In Jesus' name."   

This is mostly correct, except for the last bit -- strictly speaking, Chaplains acting as Chaplains must remain non-denominational: not offering a prayer "In Jesus' name," for example. On the other hand, if the Chaplain is offering a religious service, as a religious figure -- such as Morning Mass on a Sunday -- then the Chaplain is not acting as a Chaplain.

More to the point:

The first time I went to a CAP meeting, the squadron that I was about to join had a chaplain. He was an area protestant pastor and a pilot as well. As the meeting started, the squadron commander asked the chaplain to give an opening invocation. I thought, to myself that this seems a bit odd as CAP is a government organization and therefore should be religiously neutral. Why then this invocation to God and Christ?

God: fine. Christ: that's a no-no. CAP is not really a secular entity, as much as much of what we say and do is secular. That being said, there is still no place for and specific religion in CAP -- insofar as it is in CAP. This does not mean, however, that CAP has no business providing its members with opportunities to worship -- quite to the contrary.

Now, for those of you who don't know, I am myself a Christian and in fact I once got halfway through a Master of Divinity degree at a conservative Presbyterian seminary before a Baptist seminary woman corrupted me and, ...well I have two daughters now. But that's another story. The point is that I myself am not opposed to having Chaplains do what they do, but I am wondering how CAP reconciles this in this day and age of radical secularism.

Radical? Be careful with that word. Be very, very careful with that word.

I have heard the line of reasoning here on Captalk that the chaplain is here to teach good decision making and not to preach the gospel. But that they do this - teach "good" decisionmaking -  somehow apart from the gospel... which sort of seems to eviscerate them of their one true power - the gospel.

So . . . because I don't subscribe to any sort of gospel of any kind . . . I don't know how to make good decisions? That's ignorant at best, bigoted at worst, and more than likely ludicrous.

And so a prospective member comes to a meeting of a government organized volunteer service and is presented with Christian religious language and prayers delivered by a minister. How does that affect the new member who may not be a Christian? And if the chaplain is told that he or she cannot teach the gospel, then what real good is he going to do? Empty advice to do good / think good / be good?  Seems like quite a contradiction going on here - CAP wants the good moral values and development that the Chaplain could bring, but cannot allow him to acknowledge the power that would truly enable those values and morals... or if it does, then it risks offense to those members who do not believe as the Chaplain does...

...so then what is the proper place, work and relevance of the Chaplain in officially secular CAP?

Well, certainly, there should not be any Christian religious language, but there isn't, strictly speaking, any problem with something like a benediction. And as for not being able to teach the gospel, as mentioned, the place of the Chaplain is to advise the commander and to administer the ML (soon to be CD) program for cadets. Claiming that "advice to do good / think good / be good" without employing the gospel is "empty" is short-sighted and narrow-minded, and completely ignores some of the great advancements of moral philosophy coming from secular sources and/or methodologies: Aristotle, Immanuel Kant, Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill, the Existentialists, etc.

There is a strong implication here that there is no such thing as secular ethics, and that suggestion is trite and uninformed.

[Chaplaindon]

Friends

The role of the chaplain in CAP (likewise in the military) has several distinct facets (or foci).

1.  We provide for the religious needs of personnel insofar as possible (e.g. worship services, sacraments and rites --c.f. marriage, funerals-- prayers and so forth). What some might car "priestly" functions. These religious services are provided in BOTH a faith tradition/denominational-specific setting and in a generalized ecumenical/plural setting ... I represent my own faith tradition but also agree to serve without prejudice other faiths (and even be a caring chaplain insofar as possible to atheists).

2.  We have a "religious accommodation" role; working to ensure that commanders and ICs do not neglect to accommodate (again, insofar as possible) the religious needs of their personnel. Also to ensure free practice of one's religion without scorn or intimidation from others (or command). That accommodation role was apparently GROSSLY overlooked at the USAF Academy a few years ago and the USAF was embarrassed by it. The oversight was brought to light by a chaplain.

3.  We serve as ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENTIAL counselors (except as certain laws require disclosure of abuse, that is) to members something that can have a profoundly positive effect on morale. Imagine being able to "vent" one's frustration or dissatisfaction (or concerns, etc) to another in CAP without ANY fear of that confidence being breached. In light of much apparent paranoia (as exemplified by CAPTalk postings in the last couple of years) this could be a tremendous service to CAP.

4.  We serve as crisis support professionals for both CAP personnel and those affected by events to which CAP responds whether major disasters or missing aircraft searches, to line of duty deaths and so forth.

5.  Now ONE of our roles in CAP is essentially a secular one. That being Moral Leadership leader. ML/CD's are not religious events, they are secular discussions of morals/ethics guided by the person in a unit most likely to have graduate academic training in ethics/morals ... the chaplain.  And religious beliefs/traditions CAN offer positive/useful moral guidance ... they can also do the opposite.

As far as Christian chaplains praying in the Name of Jesus, there are times when one CAN and when one CANNOT.

One CAN when in a Christian worship service, or devotional or Sunday School class (outside of a pluralistic religious setting or a secular setting; e.g. a pre-SAREX briefing).

One cannot do so in a secular or pluralistic setting. That makes sense. As a Christian, I would be unhappy/offended if the senior-ranking chaplain at a SAREX/SAREVAL (in this hypothetical case, that chaplain being a Muslim Imam) evoked the name of the Prophet Muhammad in his prayer.

Nomex posited, "Seems like quite a contradiction going on here - CAP wants the good moral values and development that the Chaplain could bring, but cannot allow him to acknowledge the power that would truly enable those values and morals... or if it does, then it risks offense to those members who do not believe as the Chaplain does."

It may look contradictory but it's really about practicing one's "situational awareness." Chaplains, like all CAP members, need to remember to practice their faith (as they understand/believe their faith and its traditions to be) in the proper situation. We need to recognize that we live in a pluralistic world and Nation and that not everybody believes as we, or I, do and that our faith is not a club to beat others into submission with.

Contrary to Nomex' comments, Not only DOES CAP "allow [me] to acknowledge the power that would truly enable those values and morals" ... I acknowledge my faith and its power all the time (per CAPM 39-1) ... my chaplain's badge in fact (worn -by mandate- very obviously on my uniform) is a cross and leaves little ambiguity as to my Christian faith. Likewise a Rabbi or Imam would be likewise obviously acknowledging their faith each time they donned their uniform too.

As to the relevance question ... chaplains are relevant to CAP as to the military ... IMHO.

[RiverAux]

so then what is the proper place, work and relevance of the Chaplain in officially secular CAP? 

Personally, I don't think we need them.   Somehow the Boy Scout troop I was in got along without them so I don't think they are necessary for helping our cadets develop into fine young men and women. 

There is some argument that can be made for having them to potentially assist family members during searches, but I think that role should be performed by their own pastor if they need religious assistance. 

Even though the CISM program is being championed by the chaplains in CAP I think that can be done as a secular program.

That being said, there is a long tradition of having them in CAP and in the military so I've decided to accept it along with some other traditions I don't like so as to not potentially cause trouble relating to other traditions that I do like. 

[Chaplaindon]

"Even though the CISM program is being championed by the chaplains in CAP I think that can be done as a secular program."

Although chaplains are invited/encouraged to particpate in the CAP CISM program as either a peer CIST member or as a mental health professional, CISM is a SECULAR program in CAP. Always has been and I expect it always will be.

Stress (and critical incident stress) is not a problem unique to the religious.

[Chaplaindon]

"Even though the CISM program is being championed by the chaplains in CAP I think that can be done as a secular program."

Although chaplains are invited/encouraged to particpate in the CAP CISM program as either a peer CIST member or as a mental health professional, CISM is a SECULAR program in CAP. Always has been and I expect it always will be.

Stress (and critical incident stress) is not a problem unique to the religious.

To be more distinct, CAP CISM is an OPERATIONS program NOT a chaplaincy program.

[Eclipse]

3.  We serve as ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENTIAL counselors (except as certain laws require disclosure of abuse, that is) to members something that can have a profoundly positive effect on morale. Imagine being able to "vent" one's frustration or dissatisfaction (or concerns, etc) to another in CAP without ANY fear of that confidence being breached. In light of much apparent paranoia (as exemplified by CAPTalk postings in the last couple of years) this could be a tremendous service to CAP.

I disagree on this if the belief is that a Chaplain's confidentiality is restricted only to laws.

CAP Regulations do not protect a Chaplain, or any other senior member from immediately reporting violations of regulations, especially those which involving Cadet protection.

I have had personal experience with Chaplains who failed to report serious CPT issues within their units, only to be corrected on their understanding when the situation eventually washed itself out.

If their is a regulation or policy which grants a confessional-type relationship to a CAP Chaplain, please cite it here.

[Chaplaindon]

3.  We serve as ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENTIAL counselors (except as certain laws require disclosure of abuse, that is) to members something that can have a profoundly positive effect on morale. Imagine being able to "vent" one's frustration or dissatisfaction (or concerns, etc) to another in CAP without ANY fear of that confidence being breached. In light of much apparent paranoia (as exemplified by CAPTalk postings in the last couple of years) this could be a tremendous service to CAP.

I disagree on this if the belief is that a Chaplain's confidentiality is restricted only to laws.

CAP Regulations do not protect a Chaplain, or any other senior member from immediately reporting violations of regulations, especially those which involving Cadet protection.

I have had personal experience with Chaplains who failed to report serious CPT issues within their units, only to be corrected on their understanding when the situation eventually washed itself out.

If their is a regulation or policy which grants a confessional-type relationship to a CAP Chaplain, please cite it here.

CAPR 265-1 [09 May 2007], Section D, 17 (page 10). Again this does not apply universally. Abuse (child and elder) allegations is a notable exception in, I believe, every state.

Chaplains Do NOT have to "immediately [report] violations of (CAP?) regulations, especially those which involving Cadet protection."

For example, if a pilot "confesses" to me that he exceeded the crosswind component limits of CAPR 60-1 during a "get-home-itis" landing in a CAP aircraft, I am MOST CERTAINLY NOT under any moral or legal (or CAPR) mandate to disclose it to CAP authorities.

In fact, I am --under CAPR 265-1-- NOT TO disclose it.

In every (?) state we must disclose to legal authorities (e.g. child protective services, not simply CAP NHQ) child abuse suspcions as any other adult must do.

[Nomex Maximus]

More to the point:

The first time I went to a CAP meeting, the squadron that I was about to join had a chaplain. He was an area protestant pastor and a pilot as well. As the meeting started, the squadron commander asked the chaplain to give an opening invocation. I thought, to myself that this seems a bit odd as CAP is a government organization and therefore should be religiously neutral. Why then this invocation to God and Christ?

God: fine. Christ: that's a no-no. CAP is not really a secular entity, as much as much of what we say and do is secular. That being said, there is still no place for and specific religion in CAP -- insofar as it is in CAP. This does not mean, however, that CAP has no business providing its members with opportunities to worship -- quite to the contrary.

. . .but I am wondering how CAP reconciles this in this day and age of radical secularism.

Radical? Be careful with that word. Be very, very careful with that word.

Yes, radical. This is an age of extreme political correctness in America and Christ is, as you say, a "no-no".  There was a recent TV series that my wife sometimes subjected me to - "Seventh Heaven" - which was a show about the life of a protestant minister and his family. What always fascinated me about that show was how the whole point of the show was that it was about the life of a minister but how every possible reference to Christ was avoided (and what could be more important to the life of a protestant minister than Christ?) and how they never showed a cross  - not even when the show would have scenes inside a church (!)

Radical? Yes, when you consider that in this day and age we even have protracted debates and court cases about whether or not we can still have "In God We Trust" on our money or government buildings - we aren't even talking about Christ here, even the mention of "God" is considered by some to be an offensive attack on their religious freedom.

So then you see the conflict - Chaplain Don there for example, is actively recruited by CAP to come and be a "spiritual adviser", a "counselor" to give counsel in time of crisis and whenever a CAP member needs to talk and there he is with a cross upon the collar of his Civil Air Patrol uniform. How do we reconcile that?

We had a meeting last night at our unit and a new chaplain came by. He had a short (15 minute) video that he wanted to play for us at the meeting. It was a movie from the 50's prepared by Moody Bible Institute and (mostly) dealt with the concepts of instrument flying presented by missionary aviators. The point of the film was that the pilot must "have faith in his instruments" - the vague reference to faith throughout the film finally coming to a conclusion with the quotation of some  scriptures. I wasn't really sure about what the film accomplished for us as CAP members, but a new prospective member who watched it with us when asked what he thought said politely, "well, it was different."

Religion, sanitized from actual belief, seems quite empty to me. But that is the very thing that we seem to be dancing around here with the chaplaincy - we want them here (I want them here) but we don't want them to speak the truth (their truth) unless it is asked for privately. The whole aspect that somehow CAP has a high priority to provide spiritual counsel seems like a very odd conflict to me. It seems that once again we have a throwback to military tradition - the American military has always had chaplains so we in CAP now continue that tradition, whether it is in conflict with modern American civilian customs or not.

I guess what I would really wish to see is a departure from this radical secularism. If we decide we want chaplains in CAP then fine, recruit chaplains and let them say what they will - Christ and all - and let the individual members be trusted with the internal wisdom to figure out what does and does not apply to them. The crosses on their collars should be seen as fair warning that the people wearing them might actually talk to you about Christ. It is the radical secularism that demands that we not speak openly of things religious lest we offend someone's ears. A less radical secularism would tell people that they have the right to talk freely and trust that the listener will figure out what he or she needs to listen to.

A Muslim Imam giving an invocation to Allah? Won't bother me, won't burn my ears, I just won't get much from it. I do however have faith that what the Christian minister says will be more useful and the truth of things will come out.

--NM

[Monty]

Yin and Yang....balance is needed.

Majority of seniors are the nicest people on Earth....and with that in mind, some foul-mouthiest sorts around as well!   

Chaplains are a good break when I've heard enough of the "No crap, there I was in 1963 - cheese danish in one hand and a jar of sea monkeys in the other.  Meanwhile, she had a Polaroid camera and that one special glint in her eye and..............."

[DogCollar]

I was going to resist entering into this vortex, but "resistance if futile."

Chaplain code boiled down:
1.  Chaplains shall be respectful of people from all faiths and those with no faith allegiance.
2.  Chaplains shall not proslytize
3.  Chaplains shall answer direct questions concerning faith issues with direct answers!  In other words, if I am asked, directly, "Chaplain what do YOU believe?"  Than I am allowed to answer...not to convert, but to answer the question.

Do I feel that I have had my faith "chained?"  No.  Do I think that the CAP/military regulations are fair to chaplains?  Yes.

Now, I think (in my completely unbiased manner ) that chaplains happen to give CAP tremendous bang for the buck!  We are one part of CAP that can easily "crossover" and provide service to the Air Force, and reserve units, etc...  Chaplains and MLO's provide cadets with a structured program to enhance their ability for ethical discernment (chaplains and MLO's do not and should not provide THE answer...but instead provide structure and process).  Chaplains can offer real advice to commanders about issues in their command (as we know commanders aren't required to follow the chaplains' advice).  Chaplains are "front line" counselors for members/victims/rescuers, etc who are experiencing psychological/spiritual/existential distress.

If you have questions about what rules apply to chaplains, please read CAPR 265.  It is not that long and should help clear up some misconceptions. 

Are their chaplains in CAP that don't abide by the regulations?  Yes.  For those of you who witness chaplains that are straying outside those regulations, you have an obligation to the CAP Chaplain services to inform that chaplains superior in the chain of command.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Maybe I'm working from a different definition of "Non-denominational." 

To me, there are religions, (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) and those religions further divide themselves into denominations, (Catholic, Baptist, Unitarian, Sunni, Shiite, etc.)

A Christian chaplain, dealing with a predominantly Christian assembly of persons, is giving a "Non-denominational" prayer even if he prays through Jesus.  A Christian chaplain who is a Catholic priest can do that, but cannot make the Baptists pray the Rosary.  As a commander, if my only available chaplain was a Imam, and I had a predominantly-Christian group, I would skip the word of prayer.  I would not force persons of one religion to pray under the tenets of a different religion, nor would I force a chaplain to lead a prayer outside of his religion.  If the Imam wanted to call for a moment of silent prayer and reflection, however, that would be fine with everybody, I would think. 

All Christian faiths pray through Jesus.  "No one comes to the Father but by me."  We are under a biblical admonition to follow the chain of command.  Since that is common to all Christian denominations, a Christian chaplain offering such a prayer is on safe ground.

I would expect athieists, agnostics, polytheists, and persons from San Francisco to merely stand quietly and respect the beliefs of others.     

[Eclipse]

3.  We serve as ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENTIAL counselors (except as certain laws require disclosure of abuse, that is) to members something that can have a profoundly positive effect on morale. Imagine being able to "vent" one's frustration or dissatisfaction (or concerns, etc) to another in CAP without ANY fear of that confidence being breached. In light of much apparent paranoia (as exemplified by CAPTalk postings in the last couple of years) this could be a tremendous service to CAP.

I disagree on this if the belief is that a Chaplain's confidentiality is restricted only to laws.

CAP Regulations do not protect a Chaplain, or any other senior member from immediately reporting violations of regulations, especially those which involving Cadet protection.

I have had personal experience with Chaplains who failed to report serious CPT issues within their units, only to be corrected on their understanding when the situation eventually washed itself out.

If their is a regulation or policy which grants a confessional-type relationship to a CAP Chaplain, please cite it here.

CAPR 265-1 [09 May 2007], Section D, 17 (page 10). Again this does not apply universally. Abuse (child and elder) allegations is a notable exception in, I believe, every state.

Chaplains Do NOT have to "immediately [report] violations of (CAP?) regulations, especially those which involving Cadet protection."

For example, if a pilot "confesses" to me that he exceeded the crosswind component limits of CAPR 60-1 during a "get-home-itis" landing in a CAP aircraft, I am MOST CERTAINLY NOT under any moral or legal (or CAPR) mandate to disclose it to CAP authorities.

In fact, I am --under CAPR 265-1-- NOT TO disclose it.

This is the text to which you refer:

09 May 2007], Section D, 17 (page 10)]
Confidentiality. In compliance with privileged communication standards, each chaplain will be provided, where possible, private office space with locked storage for confidential files (CAPF 48) in order to hold counseling sessions.
a. Chaplains and MLOs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy.
b. In all other cases, chaplains will, at a minimum, seek the advice of competent legal counsel before making any disclosure of information confided in a private setting.[/i]
c. Only CAP chaplains have confidentiality under this regulation. MLOs will brief anyone wishing to talk with them in confidence that they are not protected by confidentiality.

emphasis mine

This is certainly not an argument I'd want to get into, and as a commander, my need for information will be at odds with this idea whether it holds water or not, but I don't believe the passage you cite specifically grants a Chaplain any protected  "confessional" status, as with the CAP medical issues, this looks to be intentionally gray - looked the other way for minor infractions that don't involve injury or violation of the law, a different issue when they do.  In your example, were someone killed, or the airframe seriously damaged, and it turned out you had evidence that you were not disclosing, I don't think this paragraph is going to protect you, especially to external authorities. 
 

In every (?) state we must disclose to legal authorities (e.g. child protective services, not simply CAP NHQ) child abuse suspcions as any other adult must do.

As you have pointed out, you're not sure on this, and I would advise members involved with the cadet program (especially) to find out for themselves about their home states.  (IANAL) My Wing's legal people have indicated to me that my status as a CAP member does not specifically place me within my home states "duty-to-report" (DTR) statutes, however those members who are PD/FD/medical personnel are not waived that responsibility under state law.  And of course for those reporting abuse, who are bound by DTR, reporting it to a corporate officer does not relieve them of their DTR externally, and in some states the first call you have to make is to an external authority - again a wonderful position for our people to be placed.

[RiverAux]

I would expect athieists, agnostics, polytheists, and persons from San Francisco to merely stand quietly and respect the beliefs of others.     

But you would not expect the same of Christians.  Interesting.

[Chaplaindon]

"This is certainly not an argument I'd want to get into, and as a commander, my need for information will be at odds with this idea whether it holds water or not, but I don't believe the passage you cite specifically grants a Chaplain any protected  "confessional" status, as with the CAP medical issues, this looks to be intentionally gray - looked the other way for minor infractions that don't involve injury or violation of the law, a different issue when they do.  In your example, were someone killed, or the airframe seriously damaged, and it turned out you had evidence that you were not disclosing, I don't think this paragraph is going to protect you, especially to external authorities."

I will not argue these points with you either.

I will state as a experienced chaplain and a former unit commander, group, wing, region staff officer and an IC that you MIGHT want to discuss your "belie[f] [that] the passage [from CAPR 265-1 ... specifically grants a Chaplain any protected  "confessional" status" with your Wing Chaplain and/or (through chain of command) your Wing/CC (or even NHQ). You'll be surprised.

But you need to hear it from those in your chain of command. It might help prevent you, as a unit commander, from doing something --out of misunderstanding-- that costs you command.

If I were under your command, no amount of bluster or "what if-ing" would get me to violate my ordination (an authority FAR beyond anything presumed/assumed by a CAP officer or commander) to violate the sanctity of the confessional. That is a sacred trust with God.

That having been said, I can't imagine a chaplain who wouldn't counsel a pilot who confessed to damaging an airframe to self-report the act ... or else, the chaplain,  perhaps going to the airport and "finding" the damage her/himself and reporting it in a manner that maintained the confidence of the clergy office.

Then, I suspect, it wouldn't take a unit commander more than a nanosecond to determine who last flew the aircraft w/o requiring a chaplain to potentially violate her/his ordination and/or CAPR 265-1.

Likewise, if someone --"in the confessional" confessed to a criminal offense (e.g. burglary, or theft), I would require admission to authorities as a part of penance.

Obviously, the person need not heed that requirement, but it's there.

If a cadet (or a SM) confessed to cheating on a CAP promotion exam, I'd challenge/exhort them --again as penance-- to admit the act and face the punishment.

But those confessions are legally (inside and outside CAP) ... including federal court ... priviledged.

As to the "duty to report" under law ... in my home state anyone (ordinary citizens and all) who even suspect(s) child or elder abuse MUST report it ... and NOT to CAP (except as secondary) ... to children's/adult protective services or law enforcement IMMEDIATELY. No exceptions.

But, you are probably correct, that theremay well be variances to the law from state to state.

[Eclipse]

If I were under your command, no amount of bluster or "what if-ing" would get me to violate my ordination (an authority FAR beyond anything presumed/assumed by a CAP officer or commander) to violate the sanctity of the confessional. That is a sacred trust with God.

Nor should anyone expect you to.

I'm in way over my skies on this to have an academic argument.

As with all things, personal experience is usually the filter through which our attitudes are formed.  Unfortunately my experience with CAP chaplains has not been very positive, most I have had personal contact with are clergy who happen to be members and were appointed by a well-intentioned commander without an understanding of the ramifications and responsibilities of a "real" CAP Chaplain - from there its a bunch of invocations, hurt feelings and uncomfortable conversations.

Some of those same well-intentioned gentlemen were also "less than non-secular", which caused further issues in their participation.

I appreciate the fact that it has already been noted this is not the proper attitude.

[DogCollar]

I guess there needs to be a reminder of the rules governing chaplain appointments.  First, the chaplain needs to be endoresed for this ministry by his or her denomination-religious certifying body.  There is a checking of credentials, both professional and educational credentials, and the appointment comes from the Chief of Chaplains and National Commander...not a unit commander.  There is much more that goes into than I am providing here, but the important thing to remember is that there IS a process...and it doesn't allow a unit commander to "appoint" a "chaplain" in anyway, shape or form.  MLO's need to be approved by the Wing Chaplain and Wing Commander for their appointments...again, a ujnit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

[Eclipse]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

[Nomex Maximus]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

...so a minister who is a CAP member has to first have a chaplain's form 5C checkride before he can be a CAP minister, and once he gets that chaplain checkride he has to then appear in the chaplains release report on e-services, either as a "mission chaplain" (can take part in actual counseling) or as a "transport mission chaplain" where he can only counsel on the way to or from a mission...?

[Psicorp]

I admit I had the same questions/concerns when I joined my present unit. No other squadron I've been in has had a CAP Chaplain.  In the distant past I was able to get AF Chaplains to conduct the Moral Leadership sessions and tried to get one of a different faith periodically.

Military Chaplains usually remind me of Father Francis Mulcahy from the tv show MASH.    He may be a Catholic Priest, but he's there to listen and his guidance rarely ever included chapter and verse recitations.

Civilian Chaplains, on the other hand, generally aren't used to such a wide spectrum of beliefs and tend to have a narrower view. 

Our current squadron Chaplain does an outstanding job and I find his presence to be soothing in a way that's hard to explain and I'm not even a Christian.   His invocations are usually directed to "All Powerful One".  Which could mean anything (God, Vishnu, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster).   

[DogCollar]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

The unit commander that is using "Pastor Doe" and calling him/her "our chaplain," is in violation of CAP regulations, and even more important puts his or her unit at risk for legal action if there were EVER and accusation of misconduct.  I'd bet dimes to dollars there would be NO legal help from CAP.  They will say, "hey, we have rules...that commander broke them...he and Pastor Doe hold all the liability."  Further, knowledge of this practice without reporting it up in the chain of command exposes that officer to risk as well.

[DogCollar]

a unit commander does not have the authority to appoint a MLO.

You're 100% correct, which doesn't stop them from calling "Pastor Doe", "our chaplain".

...so a minister who is a CAP member has to first have a chaplain's form 5C checkride before he can be a CAP minister, and once he gets that chaplain checkride he has to then appear in the chaplains release report on e-services, either as a "mission chaplain" (can take part in actual counseling) or as a "transport mission chaplain" where he can only counsel on the way to or from a mission...?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but...if a minister wants to be a CAP chaplain, there is a defined process to follow.  If your credentials aren't up to snuff, or you're unwilling to follow the process, you are not going to be a CAP Chaplain no matter what kind of lovely person you are.

[Nomex Maximus]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but...if a minister wants to be a CAP chaplain, there is a defined process to follow.  If your credentials aren't up to snuff, or you're unwilling to follow the process, you are not going to be a CAP Chaplain no matter what kind of lovely person you are.

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

[DogCollar]

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

Ah.  I see.

Quote tags -TA

[Chaplaindon]

IAW CAPR 265-1, Section C, paragraph 14h., commanders MAY under specific limitations utilize "clergy from the local community" in for ministry support in the local unit as long as that clergyperson has "the approval of the region or wing chaplain" and can serve in this supplimental capacity for up to 6 months.

We used to call these "community clergy[persons]" "visiting clergy." They are clergy but are not chaplains.

Here is the relevant citation of the regulation:

"h. Additional Personnel. Commanders may supplement the CAP Chaplain Service program as follows:

(1) Active duty, Reserve, National Guard, and Veteran's Administration chaplains serving CAP units as CAP non-members.

(2) Clergy from the local community will be escorted at all times by a senior member in compliance with cadet protection requirements. Community clergy will have the approval of the region or wing chaplain as applicable and will serve in this capacity for a maximum of 6 months. Community clergy who are successful in providing ministry to CAP units should be encouraged to join the CAP Chaplain Service."

[JohnKachenmeister]

...it's a CAP pilot yolk... replace "chaplain" with "pilot" ...

Ha ha... That's funny. A "Form 5" for the "Sky Pilot!" 

If HE crashes, you really do "Burn!"

Quote tags -TA

[Chaplaindon]

Also, while folks (especially those in command) familiarize themselves with the provisions of CAPR 265-1, they might find an examination of THE COVENANT AND CODE OF ETHICS FOR CHAPLAINS OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL (CAPR 265-2, 25FEB1995) beneficial and enlightening as well.

This document details the ethical requirements incumbent on a CAP chaplain ... including confidentiality. Note, this is a REGULATION and as such compliance is mandatory.

It's a worthwhile read.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081120.pdf

[Chaplaindon]

Ha ha... That's funny. A "Form 5" for the "Sky Pilot!" 
If HE crashes, you really do "Burn!"

Sorry my previous post didn't work ... and I can't get Katch's quote inserted ... oh well

Now the punchline ...

Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Quote tags -TA

[RplnXbrnt]

Yes, radical. This is an age of extreme political correctness in America and Christ is, as you say, a "no-no".  There was a recent TV series that my wife sometimes subjected me to - "Seventh Heaven" - which was a show about the life of a protestant minister and his family. What always fascinated me about that show was how the whole point of the show was that it was about the life of a minister but how every possible reference to Christ was avoided (and what could be more important to the life of a protestant minister than Christ?) and how they never showed a cross  - not even when the show would have scenes inside a church (!)

Right, because ABC television is representative of US culture. Furthermore -- have you perhaps considered the possibility that the show is about the minister and his family as they function separately from their faith? One of my best friends is a Catholic seminarian, and, typically, the only reminder that I have of that fact (aside from my own knowledge of it) is the occasional mention of scheduling conflicts and the every-once-in-a-while appearance of him in a cassock. And believe me when I tell you that he is a very deeply religious man.

Radical? Yes, when you consider that in this day and age we even have protracted debates and court cases about whether or not we can still have "In God We Trust" on our money or government buildings - we aren't even talking about Christ here, even the mention of "God" is considered by some to be an offensive attack on their religious freedom.

I hardly think that this is evidence of a widespread culture of "radical secularism." I'm not particularly convinced that even these singular examples are radical. For one thing, the references to "God" in our government establishments does not originate with those government establishments. This isn't the place for a history discussion or a politics discussion -- so I won't entertain that further.

Otherwise, there is a very distinct difference between referring to "God" and referring to "Christ," insofar as most non-Christians are concerned. Merely acknowledging the existence of a select few that grow offended at this does not in any bolster your claim that we're in an age of "radical secularism."

So then you see the conflict - Chaplain Don there for example, is actively recruited by CAP to come and be a "spiritual adviser", a "counselor" to give counsel in time of crisis and whenever a CAP member needs to talk and there he is with a cross upon the collar of his Civil Air Patrol uniform. How do we reconcile that?

How many people are actually offended or affronted by this? Seems to me like you're just looking for problems and controversy.

We had a meeting last night at our unit and a new chaplain came by. He had a short (15 minute) video that he wanted to play for us at the meeting. It was a movie from the 50's prepared by Moody Bible Institute and (mostly) dealt with the concepts of instrument flying presented by missionary aviators. The point of the film was that the pilot must "have faith in his instruments" - the vague reference to faith throughout the film finally coming to a conclusion with the quotation of some  scriptures. I wasn't really sure about what the film accomplished for us as CAP members, but a new prospective member who watched it with us when asked what he thought said politely, "well, it was different."

Just because the chaplain did it doesn't mean it fits into the context of what the chaplain is supposed/allowed to do.

Religion, sanitized from actual belief, seems quite empty to me.

What's your point? Chaplains aren't strictly limited to providing religious services. And when they do, provided they follow the appropriate customs, there's nothing wrong with it.

But that is the very thing that we seem to be dancing around here with the chaplaincy - we want them here (I want them here) but we don't want them to speak the truth (their truth) unless it is asked for privately. The whole aspect that somehow CAP has a high priority to provide spiritual counsel seems like a very odd conflict to me. It seems that once again we have a throwback to military tradition - the American military has always had chaplains so we in CAP now continue that tradition, whether it is in conflict with modern American civilian customs or not.

I guess what I would really wish to see is a departure from this radical secularism.

Define "radical."

If we decide we want chaplains in CAP then fine, recruit chaplains and let them say what they will - Christ and all - and let the individual members be trusted with the internal wisdom to figure out what does and does not apply to them.

Military chaplains don't do that -- why is that not a problem?

I really don't understand how this isn't coming through.

[flyerthom]

Sorry my previous post didn't work ... and I can't get Katch's quote inserted ... oh well
Now the punchline ...
Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Don't you have to get by the TSA guy at the pearly gate?

Quote tags -TA

[Nomex Maximus]

Now the punchline ...

Just wait 'til you meet the Checkpilot!

Good one Don-O !!!

[DogCollar]

Don't you have to get by the TSA guy at the pearly gate?

Imagine a frail, elderly fellow, lying in a hospital bed, surrounded by his loved ones.  He is obviously in his final moments.  These are his departing words...
"I'm moving down a long, dark tunnel toward a very bright light...I'm passing through a gate and into the light...there are long lines of people...you have to empty your pockets and take your shoes off...I keep having to show my ID over and over...."
Quote tags -TA

[CAP_truth]

Even congress has a chaplain, the president has pray breakfasts. And I find it comforting to know I am not alone. And someday I can exchange my silver wings or white ones.

[pixelwonk]

quick OT primer on quoting here fellas...

all quotes need to have a

Code Select Expand

[quote] at the beginning and a

Code Select Expand

[/quote] at the end.

Please use the preview button to make sure your quote is complete and makes sense.
If you mess up completely, just hit the back button and try your quote again.



"Keep CAP Talk beautiful. Please don't litter your quote tags."

[MIKE]

Gonna get like me soon tedda after fixing all those broken tags. 

[pixelwonk]

the difference between you 'n me is I make this look good.

now back to some chaplainny stuff.

[Walkman]

On the topic of teaching ML without specifically mentioning Christianity or another religion, it's been my observation that a large component of the world's faiths have a central core of similar moral guidelines (stealing, murder, lying, etc). In our last ML class our Chaplain presented three quotes, one from the Bible, one from the Torah, and a Buddhist proverb that all made the same point. There is a lot of collective wisdom in the world that can guide us in building character and making choices. I think our Chaplain does a good job of keeping things universal in public and personal in private.

[Nomex Maximus]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

[Walkman]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

I guess my point was that a Chaplain doesn't have to present ML only on the basis of their own faith. While I am a Christian (and a lay Youth Minister) I can listen a lesson presented by a Rabbi and reference my own faith and scripture to enhance what he is saying in a way  that deepens my understanding of his lesson. if you look at the three largest faiths that make up our Chaplain corps; Christian, Jewish & Muslim, you'll find that all share a belief in one God (yes there are many different interpretations of that God, but...), that they all espouse certain moral rights and wrongs that are similar. There is room for all of us to learn from each other's faith, IMHO.

(BTW-let's not let this devolve into a bashing of religion thread)

[Nomex Maximus]

No, I am not here to argue religion.  I just see a great conflict between the CAP idea of having a chaplain and the modern day realities of secularism, also I see a conflict between a Christian minister (i.e, most CAP chaplains) trying to teach morals and character development without  reaching for the gospel.

Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach some similar ideas of justice and righteousness, but if you say that each is as valid as the other, then none of them can really be true... if none are "really" true (i.e, the vague general purpose universal CAP God doesn't really exist) then there is no real basis for morality or even justice. If I fear no God, then why should I care about what you think if I wrong you? Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty andd pointless.

 

[Eclipse]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

[Nomex Maximus]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

[JayT]

No, I am not here to argue religion.  I just see a great conflict between the CAP idea of having a chaplain and the modern day realities of secularism, also I see a conflict between a Christian minister (i.e, most CAP chaplains) trying to teach morals and character development without  reaching for the gospel.

Yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach some similar ideas of justice and righteousness, but if you say that each is as valid as the other, then none of them can really be true... if none are "really" true (i.e, the vague general purpose universal CAP God doesn't really exist) then there is no real basis for morality or even justice. If I fear no God, then why should I care about what you think if I wrong you? Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty andd pointless.

 

We live, and we die, and everything else is just filler. This is a good thing, because it means we, and we alone, as responsible for our own actions.

[RplnXbrnt]

If God is not a reality, then what motivation do I have to care about being moral with respect to you?

ML, without a real basis in fact, is empty and powerless to help us.

Consider this: morality does not necessarily require God. If you need a motivation to be good (e.g., fear of punishment, such as damnation,  or hope of reward, such as eternal salvation) . . . it seems to me like you're not really a good person. If you're only doing something "good" because it somehow benefits you, rather than doing so simply because it is "good," then  you're not really being as good as possible, are you? You're being selfish and ego-centric. Any seemingly altruistic or generous or benevolent, etc. act that you may perform is rendered as vacuous.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

To your first response: it's not about what anyone else thinks. It's about right and wrong, period. If you need God as some sort of motivation to perform righteous acts, then you are looking for some sort of approval from someone -- that being God. Why should the presence or absence of God have anything to do with whether or not you care about OUR opinions?

To your second: that's not what he's saying at all.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

That's not particularly true, either. Laws are, in part at least (consider the case of traffic laws), present to preserve order. Order doesn't necessarily carry with it any moral weight in one direction or the other -- we just know that if we want to have a functional society, we have to have laws. Speeding on an empty highway is illegal, but I think it's quite a stretch of logic to suggest that it's immoral.

[dwb]

Jumping back to the OP for a moment...

I am wondering how CAP reconciles this in this day and age of radical secularism.

I'm sorry, this age of what?

Read American Theocracy, then come back and tell me that we live in an age of secularism.  Better yet, save yourself from having to read Phillips' dry writing, and just watch the presidential candidates from both major parties pander to the wants and wishes of the SBC.

The South has risen again, my friend.  I sometimes forget up here in the Liberal Northeast, but you only need to look at the trend of nationally elected politicians to be reminded.

[wingnut]

Well here we are, the question at hand is 'are we a quasi Military organization" an official Auxiliary of the USAF? Answer:  YES

Chaplains play an important and vital role in a soldiers life , who chooses them to be a part of. No soldier is required to attend a service.

Once recently a CAP Chaplain spoke during the Fosset mission, I was touched because his focus on his 5 minute talk was on US, the men and women there risking our lives to help a fellow man. nothing else, just about us helping our fellow man. If I had wanted to I could have searched him out later to pray with him. we needed that morality review, that ethic check it was uplifting. After he was done then the IC chew ed us out for screwups.

trained CAP Chaplains are trained to know the boundary, go past it and it should be reported but I think a gentle reminder is in order first, because it is really what is in their heart that counts. No one wants CAP to be labeled a Christian fundamentalist movement, but it has been a problem in the Active military. I actively Teach Middle East History and Cultural awareness, I would be the first to jump up in the face of a chaplain who goes over the line, but with respect

with that said, I seldom go to church, but when I was in the Middle east working for Uncle Sam, I wore a Gold Cross big enough to scare off Dracula. (sorry guys not ever in Uniform), protection, everyone thought I was a tourist (money spender) :angel:

[flyerthom]

Thus I say Moral Leadership and Character Development without a real God is empty and pointless.

"Do unto others" requires no deity to be effective.  It is a self-evident core component of a civilized society.

The co-opting of the term by various religions does not detract from its real definition:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") has three principal meanings. In its first descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. In its second, normative and universal, sense, morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions. To deny 'morality' in this sense is a position known as moral skepticism.[1] In its third usage 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Without morals and ethics, there is no justification for the laws which allow a society to function.

To your first point: if there is no real God, then why should I care what YOU think of anything I may do?

To your second point, you are simply saying that without morals and ethics we'd be real sad. Yep, we sure would. But just that we'd be sad without morals and ethics doesn't mean that they have any basis without a real God. 

Morality and ethics are not necessarily tied to the existence of a deity. If one is oriented towards a Natural Law ethical view then one regards certain principles as universal - not based on a theological root but simply universal in man's nature. One can look to Kholeberg's work in developmental psychology to seek a scientific basis for this ethical theorem.  A situational ethical view looks for the greatest good based on the current conundrum. Once again a theist view is not necessary to create a values system.

That being said, if one makes morality simply an intellectual exercise, it eliminates the one key feature that should drive any system of ethics - love.  Love of fellow man is the foundation of all true ethical systems. There is no reason for moral action without love, sans the desire to grow together as people, to be there in the time of need, or know in our time of need someone is there for us. And it is the concept of agape love that ties morality to spirituality. 

Isn't it a love of our fellow man the inspires us to spend all this time and treasure volunteering? It is a sense of community, based on giving back, that put us in a CAP uniform initially. Here is where chaplains remain relevant in CAP. They understand the sense of agape that drives us, and they understand the underlying compassionate nature of the volunteer and can stoke and nurture it. It enables us to do this job and raises us up as human bingings.


(no, I'm not a clergy person or an MLO, nor did I stay at a holiday inn express...
but I did spend four years in a Jesuit gulag university )

[wingnut]

OH Boy

I think you guy want to attack each other on belief systems and not talk about the role of a CAP Chaplain or Military Chaplain.

So Go ahead blow hot air

[Nomex Maximus]

The discussion here is about how CAP uses chaplains. I am not here to argue religion, but I do have to touch on some points to explain why I think there is a major conflict with what CAP is trying to do in terms of moral leadership.

I am a Christian as I hold that the God of the Bible is a reality and that he is the Lord of my life. The reason why I have worth and purpose is that God says I have worth and purpose. The reason why you have worth and purpose to me is that I know that you matter to God. My purpose in all of eternity is to know, serve and enjoy God and all else is of no real consequence. Since you matter to God, then you matter to me. in fact you matter a very great deal to God and so you are to matter a great deal to me as well. It is right and proper for us all to matter to each other because we are all made in His image.

But take God out of the picture - insist that he does not exist and that he does not matter. Why should I care about you? The only reason I would care about you is if for some reason you matter to me, perhaps you own a nice airplane and I want you to let me fly it. Or, perhaps some social or political circumstances give you a power over me that I must not offend - but while you may have some power over me, there is not reason that I have to like it. Perhaps though you have no great power over me and you argue that I should care about what you think or what the group thinks just because it is somehow the "right thing to do" or because it is "honorable" or "decent" or "just". I would counter that there is simply no reason for me to agree with you.  If I fail to do the right thing, or the honorable thing or teat is just or decent, so what as long as it is what I wanted to do.

Yes, if there were no God behind our ethics then I might very well wish that people would still act ethically, do justice and be nice. I wouldn't want anyone to hurt me or those that do matter to me. But I would have no confidence that anyone would have any real reason to act ethically, just or be nice - because everyone else is ultimately just as selfish as I am. Without a real God at the center of your ethical system you have nothing but emptiness and despair.

Now, I am not trying to say that God exists because if he didn't then we'd be sad. That would be a fallacy. If you believe that the God of the Bible does not exist then it would seem to me that you have very little real hope that your system of ethics will hold up under stress. Why should it? In fact, I would think that you would be hoping that there are lots of Christians out there who do think there is a real God and that they need to obey the moral rules that (fictitious) God.

So here we are in CAP, trying to morally lead our troops and to develop their character and to offer them solace in times of stress and sorrow. With what will you do this? A moral system that no one has to obey? An ethical system that varies from person to person as each person sees fit to apply or not apply? That is tha conflict I see CAP as having in the moral leadership department.

[MIKE]

Since we can't seem to stay on topic, and since discussions of this nature never end well... I'm saving time and killing this one now.