Cadets: A Sincere Question For You

[ProdigalJim]

This is for our cadet colleagues on this board.

I've noticed over the years reading questions and queries here that many cadets come to the forum to ask questions before ever checking the regulations themselves, the Knowledgebase or with their chain of command.

As Squadron CC of a composite squadron, I have a fair number of cadets in my own unit so I'm asking this sincerely for my own understanding and not to be snarky: why not look at the regulations first? Why do cadets not think of the regulations as the first source of answers? As a cadet, tell me your thought process for finding out information. Is there a reason why you ask here first instead of reading the regs? Are they confusing? Intimidating? Hard to find? Does your chain of command not know the regulations either?

I'm especially interested in hearing from cadets (rather than the rest of us who might have pet theories about why cadets turn here first before checking references).

??

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm not a cadet, but I WAS one.

Back in the day...the regs were on paper, and everyone got a copy, and no one had a smart phone. Your recourse was to check the regs, or ask at the unit. Now? Even though the regs are available, instant gratification is a lot easier on a forum like this.

I noticed that as the regs were moved to a CD from NHQ instead of paper, less and less cadets read the regs themselves. Now that most people have internet access, I'm not at all sure why they don't just google the question, which typically leads to the proper reg.

[NIN]

I'm not a cadet, but I WAS one.

Back in the day...the regs were on paper, and everyone got a copy, and no one had a smart phone. Your recourse was to check the regs, or ask at the unit. Now? Even though the regs are available, instant gratification is a lot easier on a forum like this.

I noticed that as the regs were moved to a CD from NHQ instead of paper, less and less cadets read the regs themselves. Now that most people have internet access, I'm not at all sure why they don't just google the question, which typically leads to the proper reg.

Geezum crow, GOOGLE works better than this forum to get instant gratification.

I mean seriously.  I don't go to CAPmembers.com to look up the ABU policy letter, I just google "ABU memo CAP" and pow! there it is.

It doesn't get more instant than that in terms of gratification.

To Jim's question (former cadet here, worked on Wing Staff as a cadet, and I was good at SDAs), I think the lack of a physical regulation set throws people.

BITD, you had the "Big Book of Maxwells." Somewhere inside this compact physical device was what you were looking for.

We had no CTRL-F. We had no Google.  It was "domain knowledge" that got built up and honed (I was on our academic quiz bowl team... along with leadership, aerospace & current events, aspects of the regs were fair game) and used weekly, if for no other reason that it took just a couple seconds to look at the book, and you knew how it was "divvied up."

Today, the concept of "10-series" and "39-series" is abstract, whereas when you were charged with doing page-insert changes, you worked with the regs frequently and understood what the "39-series" meant, or the "100-series."  If you ask most cadets what "series" of regs covers "personnel," they look a you funny.  "You mean, like, the membership regs?"   Because the "grouping" of the regulations into numerical series by subject matter is not entirely clear from a PDF.

[AlphaSigOU]

I'm not a cadet, but I WAS one.

I'll echo Капитан Хаткевич and say that back in the olden days WIWAC, when the earth cooled and dinosaurs roamed the earth regs and manuals were issued on paper and any changes were done with pen-and-ink. Today, we're used to seeing regs and manuals pushed out in PDF along with updates made available on the internet. We need to teach the cadinks early on to at least become familiar with the necessary regs and manuals and to refer any questions up the chain of command within the squadron. CAPTalk, while it is a great - yet unofficial - resource isn't the official word. I can understand a young cadink with 'mosquito wings' asking a question, but a cadet NCO or officer should know better and have a thorough knowledge of the regulations.

[etodd]

(I posted this in another thread by mistake. Here is where I meant to post it.)

.

This online document is 17 years old. Does it still apply? Does each squadron have 'mentors' who should be working closely with each new member (Cadet or SM) and anticipating their questions?

WHAT IS MENTORING?

Mentoring is an essential ingredient in developing
well-rounded, professional, and competent future leaders.
The goal of mentoring in the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) Cadet
Program is to help cadets reach their full potential, thereby
enhancing the overall professionalism of CAP.

Mentor means a trusted counselor or guide, tutor, or
coach. Mentors are helpers.

Mentoring is a relationship in which a person with
greater experience and wisdom guides another person to
develop both personally and professionally. Mentoring is
one of the broadest methods we have available today to
encourage human growth and develop the talent pool for
today's and tomorrow's CAP!

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_006_204F34CBD9CF4.pdf

.

[Jaison009]

The big blue 3 ring binder we all paid money to update every year with thousands of pages for every reg, that could kill someone if you hit them with it. Good times!

I'm not a cadet, but I WAS one.

Back in the day...the regs were on paper, and everyone got a copy, and no one had a smart phone. Your recourse was to check the regs, or ask at the unit. Now? Even though the regs are available, instant gratification is a lot easier on a forum like this.

I noticed that as the regs were moved to a CD from NHQ instead of paper, less and less cadets read the regs themselves. Now that most people have internet access, I'm not at all sure why they don't just google the question, which typically leads to the proper reg.

[MSG Mac]

I still have that binder and print all updates. Saves a lot of arguing

[Jaison009]

I still have the binder as well. Few years behind now but it still lives 

I still have that binder and print all updates. Saves a lot of arguing

[Garibaldi]

Yup. I have the big book of death as well.

[Holding Pattern]

I'm beginning to think I should have a printed set for the squadron as well.

[NIN]

I'm beginning to think I should have a printed set for the squadron as well.

I think there are benefits to having a single copy at the unit. But it's gotta be up-to-date or it's worthless.

[SarDragon]

(I posted this in another thread by mistake. Here is where I meant to post it.)

This online document is 17 years old. Does it still apply? Does each squadron have 'mentors' who should be working closely with each new member (Cadet or SM) and anticipating their questions?

[Quote elided.]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_006_204F34CBD9CF4.pdf

Why would it not apply? What has changed since then to require an update, or rewrite?

[Holding Pattern]

(I posted this in another thread by mistake. Here is where I meant to post it.)

This online document is 17 years old. Does it still apply? Does each squadron have 'mentors' who should be working closely with each new member (Cadet or SM) and anticipating their questions?

[Quote elided.]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_006_204F34CBD9CF4.pdf

Why would it not apply? What has changed since then to require an update, or rewrite?

I'm 95.564894531% certain this was a rhetorical question.

[SarDragon]

Well, I'm only 4.435105469% certain. He asked; I answered.

[Holding Pattern]

I was wondering where those percentage points went...

[SarDragon]

I usually just invoke Ivory soap in situations like this.

[etodd]

(I posted this in another thread by mistake. Here is where I meant to post it.)

This online document is 17 years old. Does it still apply? Does each squadron have 'mentors' who should be working closely with each new member (Cadet or SM) and anticipating their questions?

[Quote elided.]

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_006_204F34CBD9CF4.pdf

Why would it not apply? What has changed since then to require an update, or rewrite?

I'm 95.564894531% certain this was a rhetorical question.

The question was "Does each squadron have 'mentors?" .... and apparently not. I haven't heard of any in my squadron. Hence my question of whether the document from 1999 was still relevant.  Apart from this one, as I Google search things, I'm running across a large number of things that seem to be outdated, yet still indexed by Google ....  and Hdqs or whoever doesn't ever delete or purge. It makes it very confusing for those of us left to figure stuff out on our own and then we realize we are looking at an outdated document that has been superseded by a new one, yet both can still be Googled.

.

[Eclipse]

The question was "Does each squadron have 'mentors?" .... and apparently not. I haven't heard of any in my squadron.

Membership applications require that the Commander certify he has assigned a mentor to the new member.

[etodd]

The question was "Does each squadron have 'mentors?" .... and apparently not. I haven't heard of any in my squadron.

Membership applications require that the Commander certify he has assigned a mentor to the new member.

Is that the same as a PDO?  I was told who that was. But he hasn't attended a meeting in at least 12 months and I've never met him. Got an email from him in the beginning telling me to look through eServices. Hence my wondering if Mentors were different than PDOs.

[Eclipse]

Is that the same as a PDO?  I was told who that was. But he hasn't attended a meeting in at least 12 months and I've never met him. Got an email from him in the beginning telling me to look through eServices. Hence my wondering if Mentors were different than PDOs.

Not by definition.

[Jaison009]

The PDO arranges and facilitates the mentor relationship; however, they should not be a mentor unless it is to someone in PD.

The question was "Does each squadron have 'mentors?" .... and apparently not. I haven't heard of any in my squadron.

Membership applications require that the Commander certify he has assigned a mentor to the new member.

Is that the same as a PDO?  I was told who that was. But he hasn't attended a meeting in at least 12 months and I've never met him. Got an email from him in the beginning telling me to look through eServices. Hence my wondering if Mentors were different than PDOs.

[754837]

Still waiting for a cadet to answer the question.....

[Майор Хаткевич]

*crickets*

[LSThiker]

Still waiting for a cadet to answer the question.....

And probably won't except for 1.  Most people on here are senior members as most cadets do not stick around the forums.  Also, would you want to responsd to the question as there is a high possibility that the response will get jumped on by others? 

[NIN]

Still waiting for a cadet to answer the question.....

Here's a hint: CAP-Talk scares cadets away.

Cadet: "I have a question about shoulder cords.."
The Masses: "ASK YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND|READ THE REGS|SEARCH BEFORE YOU ASK|WHAT ARE YOU, LAZY?"
Cadet: "But, I just had a.."
The Masses: "Go away! Leave us to our arguments about the relative merits of uniforms and the minute placement of insignia."

[Chappie]

Still waiting for a cadet to answer the question.....

Here's a hint: CAP-Talk scares cadets away.

Cadet: "I have a question about shoulder cords.."
The Masses: "ASK YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND|READ THE REGS|SEARCH BEFORE YOU ASK|WHAT ARE YOU, LAZY?"
Cadet: "But, I just had a.."
The Masses: "Go away! Leave us to our arguments about the relative merits of uniforms and the minute placement of insignia."

"And your use of grammar is pathetic - 7 misspelled words....9 misuses of punctuation...."

[Майор Хаткевич]

To be fair, the adults get the same treatment. Nothing wrong with encouraging cadets to use the CoC and search functions of the internet/forum/etc.

[DakRadz]

To be fair, the adults get the same treatment. Nothing wrong with encouraging cadets to use the CoC and search functions of the internet/forum/etc.

What NIN posted was neither inaccurate nor encouraging.

Think about it.......

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[ProdigalJim]

Yep, Darin is right. Still hoped for at least a couple of cadets though...

[thebeggerpie]

 Cadet here.

I can say for certain that in my younger cadet years(between the age of 12 and 16), I was never told where to find the regs or that they were online. The Senior Members spoke of the regs like they were some holy guide and us mere cadets couldn't understand them. They never quoted the regs directly, but used the overpowering phase of "In the regs, it says that..." and it was suddenly law.

Not blaming all senior members here, but the ones I had for a while never shared the regs with us.

[Pace]

I agree with NIN. I'm going to pre-empt this one. Do not attack this or any other cadet who responds on this thread. If a cadet gets out of line, file a mod complaint, and we will handle it. The question was intended to get honest answers from cadets. If the truth hurts a few feelings, take it as a potential learning opportunity from a different perspective.

Move along; move along.

[Chappie]

Cadet here.

I can say for certain that in my younger cadet years(between the age of 12 and 16), I was never told where to find the regs or that they were online. The Senior Members spoke of the regs like they were some holy guide and us mere cadets couldn't understand them. They never quoted the regs directly, but used the overpowering phase of "In the regs, it says that..." and it was suddenly law.

Not blaming all senior members here, but the ones I had for a while never shared the regs with us.

Not an isolated case for cadets only...happens to Sr. Members as well.   A few years ago  -- make that a decade or so before the regs were converted to .pdf and posted on-line -- I was mentoring a chaplain in a neighboring squadron.   I asked to see the regs -- at that time they were in large blue "officially stamped with the CAP seal" binders.  None of the key staff were there as of yet, and I was told that the regs were locked away in a filing cabinet and one of the key staff (CC, Deputy, or Admin Officer) would need to unlock the cabinet to access the regs.   What a pain.  Thankfully, things have changed and mere mortals can access the regs on-line and even use the "knowledge base".   There is even a forum called "CapTalk"...never mind

[Briank]

I'm especially interested in hearing from cadets (rather than the rest of us who might have pet theories about why cadets turn here first before checking references).

I'm going to jump in anyways (not being a cadet) because I've seen the same thing elsewhere (with people of all ages).

It used to be that racing regulations were all in book form, which you were required to have.  New people showing up unprepared was pretty rare.  Then all of a sudden it seemed like nobody new was following the regulations anymore and the level of "silly questions" (thing easily answered in the regs with about 5 seconds of effort) escalated dramatically.  What changed at that time?  Regulations went from a printed book to being on-line...  My theory is that it actually became *too* easy to get the information, to the point where people no longer think it's important.  Or, the human race suddenly got a lot lazier at exactly that time.  :-)

[Storm Chaser]

I recently purchased all required C/2d Lt grade insignias for my son, a C/CMSgt soon to earn his Mitchell Award. When the insignias arrived from Vanguard, he proceeded to ask me about correct placement of insignias, etc. My response? "You know where the regs are online; look it up. You're a C/CMSgt soon to be C/2d Lt and should know this by now."

He didn't like my answer, but I felt it was the only way he was going to learn. I think we need to do a better job of not only teaching our cadets, but also holding them accountable as they progress in the program.

[HGjunkie]

To be fair, the adults get the same treatment. Nothing wrong with encouraging cadets to use the CoC and search functions of the internet/forum/etc.

Not nearly in the same manner as the Cadets get it. Typically, for Cadoodles it ends up being like what NIN said, but with other posters it becomes more of a discussion where the answers might be given and a specific reg referenced. Just a generalization from what I've seen over the years here.

[Storm Chaser]

The thing is that everything is available online now a days. I don't think the issue is that we're not teaching our cadets where to find the regs or how to read them, although I'm sure there a little bit of that, but that cadets have all these resources available and yet many choose not to take advantage of them. I have been working with cadets for many years and at times is like pulling teeth. Many just want to choose the path of least resistance.

[Garibaldi]

I call it lazy brain. A lot of kids are used to everything to be hand-fed to them. And when they are directed to the regs, they get mad. "Well, can't you just TELL me?"

Yes, I'm TELLING you where the information is, so in case you have other related questions, you can find the answers you seek.

"But I need the answer noooowwwwwww."

You could have found the answer in the time it took to find me and whine.

"Youre no help."

Hey, I HELPED you find out where you can find the information.  Now, you have the tool you need for the knowledge you seek. It's up to you to make use of it.

[SPS]

Cadet here - 1 yr left in the program.

Nature of questions here are revealing: from what I have seen questions are usually asked while tied to something cadets, young to the program, want to share - activities, promotions, insignia etc.

Cadets may be submitting CAPF2a for each of the items it applies and that should be used pretty often in the first year of the program - that requires looking at the regs.

Regs, manuals, pamphlets don't require any changes; mentoring (as someone mentioned), an occasional jeopardy to introduce topics may help.

Fear of asking a 'dumb' question may be a factor experienced cadets and SMs can fix.

[Garibaldi]

Cadet here - 1 yr left in the program.

Nature of questions here are revealing: from what I have seen questions are usually asked while tied to something cadets, young to the program, want to share - activities, promotions, insignia etc.

Cadets may be submitting CAPF2a for each of the items it applies and that should be used pretty often in the first year of the program - that requires looking at the regs.

Regs, manuals, pamphlets don't require any changes; mentoring (as someone mentioned), an occasional jeopardy to introduce topics may help.

Fear of asking a 'dumb' question may be a factor experienced cadets and SMs can fix.

In the cadet program, every question is a dumb question. Dumb, because they don't know the answer and don't know HOW to find out, for the most part. From "how do I tie my boots" to "which side do my ribbons go on", every question seems dumb to us, because we've answered it eleventy times over the years.

We give them the tools to use to find the answers, and 9 times out of 10, it's easier to find someone and ask rather than research the question and find the answer because "I need to know nooooowwwwww", because it's 10 minutes before inspection and no one told him where to look to find out what kind of socks he needs to wear.  I've had cadets ask me some real "dumb" questions over the years, and have had experienced cadets facepalm because they screwed something elementary up. Like my new Mitchell cadet who walked up to me, all smiles until I pointed out that her ribbon rack was upside down. "No it's not," she said, looking down and pulling it up to look....and five seconds later, realized that she should not be seeing her ribbons like that. She turned beet red and headed for the restroom with another female in tow to fix it.

It happens to all of us. Even me. Dumb questions are par for the course, but not knowing how to find the answer or not being willing to find out...more the rule than the exception.

[SarDragon]

I have always subscribed to the idea that there are no dumb questions, but only poorly thought out questions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[etodd]

A large part of society feels no need to memorize facts or even learn where the facts can be found ... because they have a cell phone and can just Google it. Decades ago if you wanted to know something you might actually drive to a library and use a card catalog to find some books to research the answer.  Now the library is in your pocket. So many kids and even adults do not want to read a long book or paper to find an answer. They are quite accustomed to 'instant answers' via Wiki, Google and more. And if a Google search results in a very long CAP pdf file ... forget it. They want a link to the specific answer, not the whole book. Its the times we are in. The kids tell us its 'progress'.

[stillamarine]

I have always subscribed to the idea that there are no dumb questions, but only poorly thought out questions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

You've never taught a class to a room full of cops. I assure you there are dumb questions. Especially when you are trying to go home!

[NIN]

A large part of society feels no need to memorize facts or even learn where the facts can be found ... because they have a cell phone and can just Google it. Decades ago if you wanted to know something you might actually drive to a library and use a card catalog to find some books to research the answer.  Now the library is in your pocket. So many kids and even adults do not want to read a long book or paper to find an answer. They are quite accustomed to 'instant answers' via Wiki, Google and more. And if a Google search results in a very long CAP pdf file ... forget it. They want a link to the specific answer, not the whole book. Its the times we are in. The kids tell us its 'progress'.

Sitting at dinner with our neighbors not an hour ago, this very subject came up (domain knowledge vs instant "point" information) and I used CAP testing as an example.

35 years ago, you studied Chapter x in the Leadership text and then were required to take a test on it.  You didn't quite know what the test was going to cover, so you studied like heck that *whole* chapter.   And you had no reference while taking the test.  Oh, and usually, if you didn't pass, you had to wait a month to take it again.

Consequently, you became conversant with the materials (even when the materials changed).

Now, its a 25 question open book (and online) test. You look up very specific things when you take an open book test. Just enough for the answer.   Didn't pass. You'll take it again in a little bit.  Etc...

Ugh.

[Hummingbird]

I usually try to check manuals first, but sometimes they are either impossible to find, or don't give a straight answer. (Eservices could possibly have a list separate from the mess on the sidebar to solve the issue of finding proper manuals.)

My chain of command(In my opinion) usually either has an answer, a good guess, or can find the answer if asked.

[SarDragon]

I usually try to check manuals first, but sometimes they are either impossible to find, or don't give a straight answer. (Eservices could possibly have a list separate from the mess on the sidebar to solve the issue of finding proper manuals.)

My chain of command(In my opinion) usually either has an answer, a good guess, or can find the answer if asked.

Think ahead, though. Someday, you might be a part of the chain of command. Now whatcha gonna do? The earlier you start finding the answers yourself, with a little help from others for interpretation, the better  equipped you will be as an NCO or officer.

[MSG Mac]

I usually try to check manuals first, but sometimes they are either impossible to find, or don't give a straight answer. (Eservices could possibly have a list separate from the mess on the sidebar to solve the issue of finding proper manuals.)

My chain of command(In my opinion) usually either has an answer, a good guess, or can find the answer if asked.

Think ahead, though. Someday, you might be a part of the chain of command. Now whatcha gonna do? The earlier you start finding the answers yourself, with a little help from others for interpretation, the better  equipped you will be as an NCO or officer.

All members should have a working knowledge of The regs and manuals pertaining to their jobs. At the minimum CAPR 39-1 and CAPM 20-1. Cadet Officers have to complete 2Staff Duty Analysis's per each promotion based on the regulations pertaining to each position. No excuse for anySM or senior Cadet to say "I didn't know" or even worse " We've always done it this way"

[THRAWN]

When I was a kid, I'd ask dear old dad a question and his response was always the same:"Look it up!". Kids these days have no idea how to research information. Get an encyclopedia (and yes, I had to sing the song to spell it correctly...) for your house. Learn to look things up. Learn how the regs are structured. Learn how to find information using indexes...my son really gripes about having to ask me things, but he knows where to find a lot of answers to life's little questions....

[HGjunkie]

There is a lot of conjecture and speculation in this thread specifically trying to demean Cadets in general and not giving them any credit as to their ability to find answers to questions (cadets are lazy, don't care, etc). The CP is inherently a learning environment, and you have a lot of people who are in middle school or beginning high school who have most likely never needed to research things intensively before. Like hummingbird said, the regs aren't very well written in a lot of cases and he's already being scolded for not putting in enough effort to try and interpret the regs on his own. A lot of posters here like to do that towards cadets here; sure, you can pass it off as a learning experience but when you have a C/Amn who probably doesn't have a job of any sort which requires subject knowledge past 39-1 or 52-16, it's unnecessary. And the chain of command exists primarily to support the subordinates and be able to field issues or questions requiring that subject expertise.

Here's a better way to approach it:
"Hey Sir, how do you do X for the PT test?"
"You do Y. Hey, for future reference I recommend you check out P52-18 for any information on the PT program."

Giving people the answer *and* the resource to find the answer kills two canaries with one mine: they know how and where to look it up in the future, and they get an immediate response which is arguably more useful than being told "Go look it up, I'm busy eating a donut..."

[Garibaldi]

Agreed. I'm talking about the general state of teens these days. The regs are hard to interpret and contradicts itself in some places, so I am definitely sure it's not targeted for an audience younger than 20 or so. If a cadet came up to me with the regs, or their iPad or whatever with the regs pulled up, I'd be very inclined to help. It's the ones who consistently find excuses for not doing things on their own, researching, using their Google-fu, or even asking peers that I'm finding fault with.

If I had a serious issue with helping cadets, I would not devote so much time to the program. It's a learning curve, a steep one at times, for a 12-13 year old mindset that's done nothing more than sit in front of a TV or playing with their phone, to come out of their shell and visit the larger world around them. I have actually had cadets show ME things in the regs that I missed, or if I'm having a debate about how to do things, they sometimes tell me "But, sir, CAPR XX-XXXX says..." and I'm astounded.

Show them once, good. Show them more than twice, fail.

[SarDragon]

Nailed it!

Read first, then ask questions if there's a lack of understanding.

[Pace]

Ok, so I'll throw in here. As a cadet, I had a better working knowledge of the regulations than any senior member in my squadron, including the commander. How? Because I had been trained to. 4 years of AFJROTC and the cadet wing inspector general and 2 years of cross-examination debate. I walked into CAP knowing there were manuals with the answers and the literary skills to find those answers.

Today, as a thriple degreed, masters prepared professional, I find myself tearing through the regs going "where is this bloody answer." If I am having that level of frustration, you bet cadets are, too. Chances are good that they're more likely to give up if they have never been taught or been in a position to be held accountable for knowing the answers. And oh by the way, we have three, count them, three national websites where information is sometimes difficult to locate ("you looked in eServices, silly cadet it's in capmembers.com", or "you sent a potential recruit to eServices; it's clearly over at gocivilairpatrol.com"). I also really wish a few of the basic manuals were printed for all new members.

That being said, I do think that society in general (not just teens) has gotten lazy. I routinely get questions from members twice my age that could easily be answered in the regs. Every time I suggested the answer be researched, it never was (well, I can think of one time it was).

[Cadetter]

Young (and immature) cadet officer here. I usually try to think of the regs/pubs/manuals as the first source but sometimes can't find the answer - so I usually ask my cadet commander or squadron deputy commander for direction. Sometimes I don't know there is a reg pertaining to my question, and I ask here in that case. (Or if I suspect there is a reg/pub/manual but can't find it... ditto.)

[TheSkyHornet]

I'd like to add that I often find that when questions are posed to cadets, seniors chime in and start giving their input. That's another reason why cadets go to message boards or seniors rather than their chain of command: they know they'll respond.

[raivo]

To be fair, using CAPtalk as the frame of reference adds some inherent bias to the original question, because on here we only ever see the cadets who ask questions and not the cadets who did the research on their own and didn't ask a question.