Do you think that cadets should be part of the Subordinate Unit Inspection team and do you think that they should be allowed to conducted the inspection interviews? Are there any conditions where this practice might be acceptable?
Your views and comments please.
My opinion - no.
They do not have the background experience necessary to properly conduct the interview.
I agree with Andrew
with one caveat.... A senior cadet C/Capt and above shadows only BUT has no interview questions, Just remains quiet through the whole process
That IF a cadet shows an interest in squadron operations above and beyond the cadet program, then by all means allow as a learning experience only and if the cadet is mature enough to stand some of the program issues and policies...
I can see cadets coming out of one of these things with glazed eyes and quite possibly shaking their heads at a how some CAP squadrons operate and how some regulation issues are confusing especially when CAP has issues with what is truly on the ground and what is perceived by NHQ-CAP as an ideal squadron or a "perfect CAP unit." Or even how CAP "regulations" are interpreted by Wing or other staffers during the SUI. Some times a senior cadet needs to see these thing in order to decide when turning SM.
I went from cadet to senior member in 1980 and it was an eye opening experience going from cadet commander to Sqdn CC 6 months to a year later. Wish I had some extracurricular SUI to attend BITD so I could reaaaaallly see what was or was not important as a far as priorities in Sqdn leadership issues
So I am all for older cadets doing this only with the caveat above..
From what I understood you now have to go through the IG basic course to be on SUI teams.
I don't know if that is open to cadets, but I would doubt it. Also, how is a cadet that is not able to do anything other than serve as an assistant staff officer going to be considered highly qualified to inspect actual staff officers?
No, as a Sq. Commander, I dont want a cadet inspecting my unit. Not even if its associated with the Cadet Program. If I need a cadet perspective, Ill ask my cadet staff or a Senior Member thouroughly versed in CP. Outside of CP, I dont see cadet having the expertise to conduct unit inspections.
Just a question do SM's go through some course to be on the SUI team? Also why not send some experienced cadets through this course? I mean senior cadet officers are taking tests that might as well be college level. Also what makes a senior member capable more so than a cadet of conducting an inspection granted they both have the same level of training? Honestly as long as training is universal I don't see a problem.
Appearances.
Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?
Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.
Okay some of that Aerospace stuff is pretty much Freshman of college level anyways I can see where you come from but I'm not saying evaluate you directly but rather assist but still aloud to contribute.
I agree that no cadets should be conducting any of the SUI inspections. I would go with the idea of senior cadets being on the team...helping out, observing, typing up reports, looking up regulations, etc...as a learning opportunity.
But I got enough problems with some random SM who thinks he knows more than me about the regulations...telling me something just has to be done....I don't need some cadet doing that.
thats a negative ghost rider
A senior cadet could have a role in helping his home squadron prepare for the inspection. That would provide plenty of opportunity to learn about the process.
A cadet as a member of the inspection team? No.
No.
No. Cadets can help prepare for inspections, but SUI teams should be comprised entirely of senior members, preferably those with a wealth of experience.
I think only experienced members should conduct SUI interviews.
But is silly to think that a 20 year old senior with two years in the program is more qualified to do the interview than a 20 year old cadet officer with 7 years in the program simply because of their membership category.
Talk about insulting . . . .
If the "Subject Expert" doing the SUI doesn't have a Master's Rating in that speciaty, he shouldn't be doing the inspection.
Quote from: Ned on January 31, 2010, 06:04:09 AM
I think only experienced members should conduct SUI interviews.
But is silly to think that a 20 year old senior with two years in the program is more qualified to do the interview than a 20 year old cadet officer with 7 years in the program simply because of their membership category.
A 20-year-old senior member with two years in the program is *not* an experienced member. So, regardless of the number of years the cadet has, neither are suitable candidates to be inspectors.
Quote from: Cecil DP on January 31, 2010, 10:36:11 AM
If the "Subject Expert" doing the SUI doesn't have a Master's Rating in that speciaty, he shouldn't be doing the inspection.
Are you saying that inspection teams should consist of people who have Master ratings in each of the areas being inspected? If so, you'll find it nearly impossible to create inspections teams.
Besides, I may not have a Master rating in, say, Personnel, but I have a pretty good idea of what personnel officers are supposed to do.
[darn] you Brodsky, you just laid to waste the post I just wrote making exactly the same points. >:( ;D
Quote from: dwb on January 31, 2010, 12:17:09 PM
Quote from: Ned on January 31, 2010, 06:04:09 AM
I think only experienced members should conduct SUI interviews.
But is silly to think that a 20 year old senior with two years in the program is more qualified to do the interview than a 20 year old cadet officer with 7 years in the program simply because of their membership category.
A 20-year-old senior member with two years in the program is *not* an experienced member. So, regardless of the number of years the cadet has, neither are suitable candidates to be inspectors.
Quote from: Cecil DP on January 31, 2010, 10:36:11 AM
If the "Subject Expert" doing the SUI doesn't have a Master's Rating in that speciaty, he shouldn't be doing the inspection.
Are you saying that inspection teams should consist of people who have Master ratings in each of the areas being inspected? If so, you'll find it nearly impossible to create inspections teams.
Besides, I may not have a Master rating in, say, Personnel, but I have a pretty good idea of what personnel officers are supposed to do.
When doing a SUI, the more experience the inspector the better for all. If you don't have a Master's rating that a Senior rating should do. The statement "I may not have a Master's rating, in say Personnel, but I have a pretty good idea of what personnel officers do", is not a substitute for the training and experience of the trained personnel officer.
Keep in mind that most SUI teams only consist of a handful of people and that each person is usually inspecting 2 or 3 different staff positions, some of which they may or may not be familiar with. They should at least be an expert in one of them.
They might not have a Master rating in each area inspected, but I would expect them to have at least one Master rating and progressed past SMWOG in rank.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 31, 2010, 01:52:35 AM
A senior cadet could have a role in helping his home squadron prepare for the inspection. That would provide plenty of opportunity to learn about the process.
A cadet as a member of the inspection team? No.
But what if it was "The Chairman"? >:D
Cadets have important roles in the Cadet Program and I'm impressed with what they do. I don't favor increasing the scope of their responsibilities to include seniors particularly those not involved in Cadet Programs.
The last two SUI Inspections I've participated in involved the Wing IG a Retired AF Col and members of Wing Staff. This is serious Business. I think Cadets benefit from training in many areas but all things considered an SUI Inspection is definitely not the place.
Having gone through several SUIs and a Wing Compliance Inspection, I would say "No". As pointed out, these inspections are integral to determining whether or not an unit is mission-ready and compliant. Cadets -- no matter their rank (even if it is the Chairman) -- do not realize or have been exposed to the organization and its operation to make sound evaluations or observations. I'm not too sure if I would even want them to be a casual observer of the process.
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2010, 12:28:48 AM
Appearances.
Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?
Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.
Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.
That is just my two cents...
First, sweat through a couple of inspections. Then come back and let us know if you still have that opinion.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 31, 2010, 07:25:31 PM
First, sweat through a couple of inspections. Then come back and let us know if you still have that opinion.
I just agreed that a Cadet shouldn't conduct inspections... we are Cadets. We are in Civil Air Patrol to mostly Learn and Lead, not Command. I just felt that, arajca's, comment was close minded and a little bit insulting.
I wouldn't want to conduct unit inspections, that is a little bit too much responsibility for my rank.
The short answer is no.
But a couple of other comments.
An SUI is not rocket science, a "how to run a squadron" class, or a witch hunt. It is a a series of basically yes/no questions which are then substantiated to the satisfaction of the examiner. Much of it is completely objective.
Remediation and consequences are the responsibility of the higher HQ once the report is published. As a Group CC, I don't want some random "master" on an IG team advising my units on the "Way", especially in areas that are subjective. That's my job. Fill out the forms and I'll help them fix things. So a master rating is not a requirement.
By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or Group inspecting a unit. Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2010, 08:07:30 PM
By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or Group inspecting a unit. Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.
Well, you are correct that the inspection is being done for the higher level unit and that almost no cadets are assigned to those units BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that all those on the inspection team are assigned to that higher level either. You can have a member of an inspection team that just happens to be assigned to another squadron (so far as I know).
Quote from: RiverAux on January 31, 2010, 09:50:37 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2010, 08:07:30 PM
By definition it is a higher HQ inspecting a "subordinate", therefore it is either a Wing inspecting a Group, or Group inspecting a unit. Since for practical reasons few wings and groups have cadets assigned, its a fairly moot point, anyway.
Well, you are correct that the inspection is being done for the higher level unit and that almost no cadets are assigned to those units BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that all those on the inspection team are assigned to that higher level either. You can have a member of an inspection team that just happens to be assigned to another squadron (so far as I know).
Yes, you're correct, in fact my inspection team has someone from a different group helping, so its possible, but not practial.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 30, 2010, 10:43:25 PM
From what I understood you now have to go through the IG basic course to be on SUI teams.
River,
From what I read in CAPR 123-3, para 12(e), an SUI team must consist of at least two "highly qualified inspectors," which the regulation defines as a team member "...who has completed the Inspector General Basic Course and is a current subject matter expert..." (para 3(g)).
Does this mean that the team can consist of other team members who have NOT completed the IG Basic Course? I would argue that that is what the regulation implies, since the regulation doesn't define "team member" but does define Highly Qualified Inspectors as a "team member" with additional qualifications; therefore, there are at least two possible classifications of members on an SUI team.
Please let me know if I am missing something.
v/r
Thanks for the reg cite.
Based on something he said recently, our IG seems to be operating like all team members must be "highly qualified" and have completed the course. I don't have a clue if that is the correct interpretation or if not highly qualified people can contribute.
Of course, a commander can add to, but not take away from, a regulation. If the IG, as the commander's delegated representative, wants a higher standard, that is his/her perogative.
Methinks, however, that it could make staffing for SUIs difficult.
v/r
If a cadet has the Mitchell, s/he could sit in as a non-participant observer.
I guess a more applicable question would be......Why the $%^& would cadet want to be there to begin with? Call me crazy, when I was a cadet, this would have been number 1025 on my list of 1000 things I would want to do with my free time.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 01, 2010, 12:40:16 AM
I guess a more applicable question would be......Why the $%^& would cadet want to be there to begin with? Call me crazy, when I was a cadet, this would have been number 1025 on my list of 1000 things I would want to do with my free time.
True enough. I got things to text, so I wouldn't have time for an SUI. However I believe the Chairman (Long live the chairman) would probably disagree. Along with other high speed Kaydets who have an interest in different parts of the program.
QuoteAppearances.
Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?
Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.
You must be a fun guy. I'm with Lunsford on that.
Perhaps there could be other reasons to place a Kaydet on an SUI team other than to personally insult you. Kaydets can be on ground teams and I don't hear survivors complaining.
While having the cadets inspect the senior staff positions obviously makes no sense and may not be within regs anyway, what about putting some of the cadet staff officers through this "fun" process?
Perhaps there should be a version of the SUI for the cadet staff that could take place at the same time? Probably wouldn't be as paperwork-focused as the rest of the SUI, but having a high ranking cadet from another unit come in and interview some of the cadet staff about what they're doing could help keep the cadets on track, just like the SUI is supposed to keep the senior staff on track.
After taking a quick look at 20-1, it seems to me that there would potentially be plenty to talk about
Quote from: Lunsford on January 31, 2010, 07:19:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2010, 12:28:48 AM
Appearances.
Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?
Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.
Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.
That is just my two cents...
If you were to ask a cadet to evaluate a senior member who has been performing his area of specialty longer than the cadet
has been alive, I can see how the senior member would be justifiably insulted and feel he'd been shown a lack of respect.
The cadet, on the other hand, being elevated to a position he does not merit, has no right to feel insulted nor does he merit any special respect in this situation.
I have to say that a CAP Officer who had been in CAP 3 years came to inspect my Squadron once. One of my Officers told him to go "shove it" when the inspector called him out on a few issues. When I questioned my Officer, he responded that "the kid had no idea what he was talking about, and had only been in three years he knew nothing". I responded, "well are the findings true, and he responded "yes, but I have been doing it this way for over 10 years". Needless to say that member is no longer part of my Squadron, and we are doing better without him.
Would I accept Cadets doing an SUI? Absolutely not. I would allow them to observe the process though, and if they wanted to ask questions or have a conversation on something they saw, I would have it.
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2010, 12:28:48 AMInsulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
If you completely disregard that many of these "kids" have spent more years in CAP than many adults... then yes, you might possibly have a valid point. By the time I became a senior member, I had 7 years in CAP, which was about three times as long as my squadron commander had been.
Never confuse rank (particularly in CAP) with experience or qualifications.
That being said, CAP doesn't allow cadets to sign off on certain things, simply by virtue of being cadets. I would be fine with having cadets give their input during an SUI, but I wouldn't give them any "authority" over the process.
Quote from: raivo on February 01, 2010, 05:00:12 AMIf you completely disregard that many of these "kids" have spent more years in CAP than many adults... then yes, you might possibly have a valid point. By the time I became a senior member, I had 7 years in CAP, which was about three times as long as my squadron commander had been.
Never confuse rank (particularly in CAP) with experience or qualifications.
I completely disagree with this statement. I disagree with the NB's decision to award CP credit for cadet achievement.
I spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom? Heck no!
As I said before.....I got nothing against cadets being on the team, doing the leg work, and learning how an SUI is done.....but not being the subject matter experts. Just as no one would ask a High School Senior to be on an accreditation team.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 01, 2010, 05:08:51 AMI completely disagree with this statement. I disagree with the NB's decision to award CP credit for cadet achievement.
I spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom? Heck no!
As I said before.....I got nothing against cadets being on the team, doing the leg work, and learning how an SUI is done.....but not being the subject matter experts. Just as no one would ask a High School Senior to be on an accreditation team.
I think we sort of agree, at least partially.
I'm just saying I think it's wrong to dismiss a cadet's input straight away simply because they are not a senior member.
Which probably could have been communicated better in my post, I suppose.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 01, 2010, 05:08:51 AMI spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom? Heck no!
Pat,
Don't sell yourself short.
If the school board gave you a checklist as comprehensive as we give our SUI/CI teams, you could do a bang-up job inspecting a kindergarten class.
1. Written lesson plans exist? Check.
2. Sleeping mats present? Check.
3. ADA-accessible bathrooms? Check.
4. Milk refrigerated below 40 degrees? Check.
C'mon Pat, believe in youself! I know I do.
Quote from: Ned on February 01, 2010, 05:33:32 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 01, 2010, 05:08:51 AMI spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom? Heck no!
Pat,
Don't sell yourself short.
If the school board gave you a checklist as comprehensive as we give our SUI/CI teams, you could do a bang-up job inspecting a kindergarten class.
1. Written lesson plans exist? Check.
2. Sleeping mats present? Check.
3. ADA-accessible bathrooms? Check.
4. Milk refrigerated below 40 degrees? Check.
C'mon Pat, believe in youself! I know I do.
Oh come on those checklists are more indepth than that....Look at the CAP version of the Kindergarten inspection....
1. Written lesson plans exist? Check.
conformed to national department of education guidelines, provide proof of teaching certificate and additional edication credentials2. Sleeping mats present? Check.
Plastic covered, wiped with antimicrobial wipes 13 times daily, show proof of cleaning, with monthly steam cleaning.3. ADA-accessible bathrooms? Check.
Provide floor plan showing how ADA guidelines were met, also provide inspection team access to all bathrooms in the area to include those not in your immediate area4. Milk refrigerated below 40 degrees? Check.
Provide charting and manufacturers manual on the refrigerator. Provide emergency plans on how to conduct a "Warm Milk" evacuation to ensure all precious, never misbehaving children do not consume 41 degree milk.
Quote from: Ned on January 31, 2010, 06:04:09 AM
I think only experienced members should conduct SUI interviews.
But is silly to think that a 20 year old senior with two years in the program is more qualified to do the interview than a 20 year old cadet officer with 7 years in the program simply because of their membership category.
Talk about insulting . . . .
If it was a TFO or SFO who had been in CAP since they were 13 and transitioned over to the dark side at 18. I see no problem.
I don't really have a problem with a cadet doing inspection from the point of view that a cadet is "unqualified" or "lacks experience." I do think there are many cadets out there capable of following a checklist, as well as cadets out there who can't even conduct a uniform inspection of a single individual. And, frankly, I think it's the same story with the senior members. It's going to vary as much in the cadet world as it will in the senior world.
Rather, I would think that a cadet should have SOMETHING more important to than to be conducting unit inspections. Even a C/Lt Col has the primary mission of promoting and continuing to excel in cadet programs, leadership, and so forth. I'm not really sure how conducting a unit inspection is going to help them progress toward that goal more significantly than inspecting a drill team or a barracks would.
So I say no from the basis that a cadet should probably be sharpening a different skill set than inspections as a cadet. When they go senior, they can pursue whatever specialty they want, but as a cadet, I want them focusing as much as possible on completing the program, and I think the inspection skills are developed well enough through other mediums that it would be of little benefit for them to focus on higher level inspections when compared to other things they could be doing at the upper echelons of leadership.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on February 01, 2010, 11:18:33 AM
1. Written lesson plans exist? Check. conformed to national department of education guidelines, provide proof of teaching certificate and additional edication credentials
You Sir, would fail your inspection. The word is education, not "edication". >:D
I know under the Department of Edication, things are tough, but come on!
Quote from: Ned on February 01, 2010, 05:33:32 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 01, 2010, 05:08:51 AMI spent 16+ years in school from Kindergarden through highschool and getting my BA.......does this make me qualified to inspect a kindergarten classroom? Heck no!
Pat,
Don't sell yourself short.
If the school board gave you a checklist as comprehensive as we give our SUI/CI teams, you could do a bang-up job inspecting a kindergarten class.
1. Written lesson plans exist? Check.
2. Sleeping mats present? Check.
3. ADA-accessible bathrooms? Check.
4. Milk refrigerated below 40 degrees? Check.
C'mon Pat, believe in youself! I know I do.
Gee....thanks Ned....I feel so much better about myself. :)
I take your point and to a degree agree with it. I know there are lots of cadet who are capable of pulling off an SUI. Just as there are plenty of Senior Members with less then a year in the program who could do the same. However the SUI team should be loaded with as many Subject Matter Experts as possible. There is also the diplomatic/appearance aspect of any inspection team. The team may be going into a situation where you got 20+ year veterans who simply are going to be stubborn when confronted with the fact they have been doing it wrong. Adding the fact that a cadet is telling him so is not going to make it easier to effect the needed changes. I don't see the value in adding a possible roadblock into the process if we can avoid it.
Like I said at the start. I think it is a good idea to get the older cadets out on the team to observe and help out....but not doing the actual inspections. (of course the can advise and consult with their team members behind closed doors) :).
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 01:42:32 AM
While having the cadets inspect the senior staff positions obviously makes no sense and may not be within regs anyway, what about putting some of the cadet staff officers through this "fun" process?
Perhaps there should be a version of the SUI for the cadet staff that could take place at the same time? Probably wouldn't be as paperwork-focused as the rest of the SUI, but having a high ranking cadet from another unit come in and interview some of the cadet staff about what they're doing could help keep the cadets on track, just like the SUI is supposed to keep the senior staff on track.
After taking a quick look at 20-1, it seems to me that there would potentially be plenty to talk about
No thoughts on this?
In a word ?????? NO! Not even AE or Cadet Programs...As a former commander, the one thing I got really tired of were cadets that thought they were better then the senior members that commanded them. This idea would be one more nail in the coffin, so to speak. What's next cadet wing commanders? How about cadet generals.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 10:43:39 PMNo thoughts on this?
My usual: A solution in desperate search of a problem.
Cadets already have a "higher echelon" present full time at the unit monitoring their work. We call them the senior staff.
Also, many wings are challenged as it is to conduct the present SUI schedule without essentially doubling their workload and scope of inspections.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 10:43:39 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 01:42:32 AM
While having the cadets inspect the senior staff positions obviously makes no sense and may not be within regs anyway, what about putting some of the cadet staff officers through this "fun" process?
Perhaps there should be a version of the SUI for the cadet staff that could take place at the same time? Probably wouldn't be as paperwork-focused as the rest of the SUI, but having a high ranking cadet from another unit come in and interview some of the cadet staff about what they're doing could help keep the cadets on track, just like the SUI is supposed to keep the senior staff on track.
After taking a quick look at 20-1, it seems to me that there would potentially be plenty to talk about
No thoughts on this?
Eh... seems redundant to me. No cadet from another squadron, even from Wing HQ, is going to be able to override the squadron commander or DCC. So the progress of the cadet program as perceived by a cadet, however valid or useful, is still going to be entirely at the mercy of the senior leadership. There simply would be no line of authority involved with the inspection. Besides, this is kind of what the CAC is supposed to be for. Case in point, they are an advisory body.
And, like I said earlier, I think cadets get plenty of chances between Phases I-IV to inspect people. I as a cadet inspected cadets in every uniform, inspected four different types of barracks to four different standards, judged two encampment drill competitions, decided who fulfilled criteria for awards, etc. And while it is true that most of this took place after C/Officership, I am not imaging anyone on a cadet inspection team for a unit would be less than a C/Capt...
Cadets get plenty of inspection experience. If it doesn't benefit the unit being inspected (due to lack of authority), and it doesn't benefit the cadet doing the inspection (not really learning any new skills when compared to every other inspection the cadet is likely to do at some point), then I don't really feel like putting a cadet in that oh-so-exciting position is necessary. I'd rather my cadets be doing something more productive with their time than rehashing skills they likely already have.
Nathan, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting that they do a uniform inspection, but actually inspect the program itself and what the cadet leaders are doing. Basically a cadet-based version of the SUI.
There would be just about as much "line of authority" for such a cadet program as there would be with the senior members actually doing the SUI. Don't see that as an issue. The cadet doing the inspection would note any violation of the regulations they are tasked with checking compliance on and it would be included in the overall report along with all the others.
I think that would be too far.
It would require a new SUI guide...then it would require a cadet on the SUI team.
Like I said...got no problem with a cadet on the team....but not as an "inspector".
True. Someone would need to go through all the appropriate regulations and see exactly what would make sense to include. May not be enough regulatory requirements that the cadet staff are responsible for for it to be worthwhile.
I bring it up because we do hear complaints here every now and again about some cadet units being pretty messed up and getting a cadet's eye on them might be helpful in making a real evaluation.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
True. Someone would need to go through all the appropriate regulations and see exactly what would make sense to include. May not be enough regulatory requirements that the cadet staff are responsible for for it to be worthwhile.
I bring it up because we do hear complaints here every now and again about some cadet units being pretty messed up and getting a cadet's eye on them might be helpful in making a real evaluation.
How aboutgetting a Cadet Programs officers eye on it instead?
Give an aspiring cadet a shoulder cord and let this cadet serve as a "runner," however, it think it is reasonable to hold the SUI teams to all working CAP Officers. FOs, TFOs and SFOs may be an exception...they exist, in my observation of things, as members in a "gray area," are they cadets of seniors? I believe they are Senior Members merely held back because someone doesn't want 18 year-old officers.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 02, 2010, 02:03:26 AM
Give an aspiring cadet a shoulder cord and let this cadet serve as a "runner," however, it think it is reasonable to hold the SUI teams to all working CAP Officers. FOs, TFOs and SFOs may be an exception...they exist, in my observation of things, as members in a "gray area," are they cadets of seniors? I believe they are Senior Members merely held back because someone doesn't want 18 year-old officers.
FOs are seniors because they can be unit commanders.
As a team member, no way.
However, when I had a group some years ago, we would always interview the cadet leadership (C/CC, C/CV/, C/1SGT) as part of the SUI focused on cadet program & activities.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 02, 2010, 02:17:12 AM
As a team member, no way.
However, when I had a group some years ago, we would always interview the cadet leadership (C/CC, C/CV/, C/1SGT) as part of the SUI focused on cadet program & activities.
Really?
Which page or section is that? What, specifically, did you ask them and where did you note the responses?
I don't recall seeing anywhere in the SUI guide that gives the inspection team carte blanche.
You ask the questions on the page, note the answers, and take your leave.
I completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet. I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below. There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP. As it should be. I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues. On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility. It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.
QuoteI completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet. I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below. There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP. As it should be. I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues. On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility. It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.
Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.
Quote from: Fuzzy on February 02, 2010, 12:25:21 PM
QuoteI completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet. I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below. There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP. As it should be. I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues. On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility. It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.
Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.
Only those delegated to them from their unit commander.
Quote from: Cecil DP on February 02, 2010, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: Fuzzy on February 02, 2010, 12:25:21 PM
QuoteI completely had no idea what it took to run a CAP unit when I was a cadet. I was a C/1Lt., Cadet Commander, and everything below. There are very few cadets who understand the business side of CAP. As it should be. I would have quite if I had to deal with these issues. On top of that, cadets may be given the job, but they ultimately have no authority or responsibility. It ALWAYS lands back on the Senior side.
Cadets have some authority and responsibilities.
Only those delegated to them from their unit commander.
That could be said of any senior member as well.
The issue stems from cadets not being "adults" in the eyes of the program. They can't ever be assigned actual authority over anything since they can't self-supervise.
Then there some senior members who could not supervise a trash can in to a corner
So where are the cadets going to get experience to be a SUI? How about as an assistant.For a cadet to tell me something is wrong with(say) my uniform,then take it a constructive advise and move on.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2010, 11:23:42 PM
Nathan, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting that they do a uniform inspection, but actually inspect the program itself and what the cadet leaders are doing. Basically a cadet-based version of the SUI.
There would be just about as much "line of authority" for such a cadet program as there would be with the senior members actually doing the SUI. Don't see that as an issue. The cadet doing the inspection would note any violation of the regulations they are tasked with checking compliance on and it would be included in the overall report along with all the others.
I don't think there's a misunderstanding. My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections. An inspection is an inspection. You have a standard, you measure a variable against that standard, and decide if any error falls within an acceptable margin. There are few differences between doing a unit inspection and doing a uniform inspection or barracks inspection in this regard.
The only justification I can think of where a cadet might actually learn something that helps them complete their mission of completing the cadet program is seeing how the units work at a higher level. But, once again, I was never part of a unit inspection team, and I did a pretty good job throughout my cadet career gaining this kind of knowledge from just having to work with CP senior members for pretty much the last two years of my cadethood.
So, without any unique experiences being made, and without the capability of actually mattering (since a cadet is never going to be able to tell a DCC what to do with his/her squadron), I just don't really see the point. Maybe at the Spaatz level, when the cadet has nothing much left to do except prepare for becoming a senior, but even then, I could probably think of a bunch of things that the cadet could do that is more productive and teaches them a different skill set than one they have been practicing since working as a flight sergeant.
This can be a stressful time for Squadrons. There is a lot of preparation involved with real consequences if things dont go well. I want someone who can inspect from experience, someone who knows how the program operates, and someone who can offer me advice on how to fix it. I know of no cadets who can bring this.
As far as cadet programs, there are regulation and record keeping things that are inspected that are pretty cut and dry. My DCC has his vision, combined with my vision for where I want to see the unit go as the Squadron Commander that are not an inspection item provided I am following the regs. I dont have the time nor the interest in sitting down with a cadet from another squadron, who, in reality is probably just reiterating his/her own DCC's vision for their unit. When my unit was inspected, I had the Group staff come and inspect. The detail they brought with them in the inspection areas was almost sickening. If I had a deficiency, I was told EXACTLY how to fix it. Admin, Finance, Logistics, Aircraft Management, Counter Drug, ES, Command, etc, etc.... Again, things cadets dont deal with.
If an inspector wants to bring some cadets with him to observe, please, by all means do so. If you are an inspector, lets say for ES, and your home unit has a Cadet ES officer, bring them so they can watch you inspect and so they can see the business side of CAP ES. But I wont have them interviewing my senior staff or my appointed cadet staff in a setting where there are consequences for getting your unit grounded or shut down. And if a grievance issue comes up, I dont want to be put in a position as a Senior to have a dispute with an inspecting cadet.
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2010, 07:21:19 PM
My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections.
I think you're looking at it backward.
We don't do SUIs so that the people on the inspection team can learn something. They are there to use their experience within the program to evaluate the unit that they are inspecting and hopefully while they are doing that pass on some of what they are learned to that inspecting unit.
Quote from: flydoggy on February 02, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
So where are the cadets going to get experience to be a SUI? How about as an assistant.For a cadet to tell me something is wrong with(say) my uniform,then take it a constructive advise and move on.
Ill take up sides with River on this. SUI's arent a part of the learning process for a cadet. We dont nurture future seniors by having them, as cadets conduct SUI's. They will learn that as junior Senior Members should they choose to go that route. Not EVERYTHING in CAP is meant to be a teaching moment for a cadet.
Flying Pig, I'm not picking on you here, but you enumerate a number of fallacies about the SUI process.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 02, 2010, 08:05:17 PM
This can be a stressful time for Squadrons.
There's no reason it should be - everyone makes the same money whether you get a marginal or an outstanding, and no one
is stood down unless there is a safety or money / property issue, which rarely rears its head in an SUI. The majority of issues
are in the minutia of administrivia, and they are generally easily fixed.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 02, 2010, 08:05:17 PM
There is a lot of preparation involved with real consequences if things dont go well.
Probably the biggest mistake - an SUI is not a final exam, or even mid-terms. Its a snapshot of operations and compliance at a given period of time. Units that are operating properly should have little preparation necessary, and take my word, if it looks like things were crammed, with all your appointment dates on the same night, its obvious.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 02, 2010, 08:05:17 PM
I want someone who can inspect from experience, someone who knows how the program operates, and someone who can offer me advice on how to fix it. I know of no cadets who can bring this.
Probably the next mistake.
IG's are not there to "offer advice". They are there to ask the questions, record the answers and leave. The next higher HQ is then
responsible for directing remediation, and its not supposed to happen during the inspection.
What Wing are you in?
Quote from: RiverAux on February 02, 2010, 08:30:20 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 02, 2010, 07:21:19 PM
My point was more that if a cadet's primary goal is to progress in the cadet program, then I have a hard time trying to figure out what skills or experience the cadet will get from performing this type of inspection that he/she would not get from any of the other types of inspections.
I think you're looking at it backward.
We don't do SUIs so that the people on the inspection team can learn something. They are there to use their experience within the program to evaluate the unit that they are inspecting and hopefully while they are doing that pass on some of what they are learned to that inspecting unit.
True, but the point of the cadet program is to ensure that the cadets are learning and progressing in the cadet program. Even a C/CC of a huge encampment is in a learning position.
Looking at it your way, I still try to figure out how a cadet doing an inspection is going to be valid. Will the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.
I think the first point is the most important. I would always try to ensure even the higher ranking cadets were in a learning position, trying something new and gaining experience from doing it. That's our goal as senior member CP leaders. We want to pack skills into these cadets that they can master and bring out into "the real world." So when I look at inspection, I try to figure out what a cadet is learning from the experience. For instance, a cadet who is commanding a flight is not learning the same skills as a cadet commanding a whole encampment. The grander scale requires a great deal of new skills to be learned and utilized.
But is conducting a unit inspection different enough from conducting any other inspection that it would be worth spending time on it? Is the checklist for a unit inspection going to require some sort of different skill that isn't covered by a uniform checklist? If not, then is it worth spending the time doing, especially if the cadets cannot do anything more than provide advice that will, for the most part, fall on deaf ears?
And even if the senior leadership was willing to listen to the advice of the cadet inspectors, is this going to be any different than what comes up in a GOOD CAC meeting? From what I understand, the CAC is supposed to do a bit of monitoring of the individual squadrons in terms of unit reports from each representative. If there are issues within any given squadron that the cadet perspective might be able to help solve, wouldn't these normally go through the CAC chain anyway? It sounds like the solution isn't to put cadets on the inspection teams, but rather strengthen the CAC program, and maybe ensure that the CAC takes time to review the CP portion of each unit inspection and see if they as an advisory body can offer any advice.
QuoteWill the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.
NO member of an SUI team has that power. They report back to the IG who reports to the Wing Commander who has the authority to do just about anything if the squadron doesn't fix the problems identified in the SUI as they are supposed to.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 02, 2010, 08:47:49 PM
QuoteWill the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.
NO member of an SUI team has that power. They report back to the IG who reports to the Wing Commander who has the authority to do just about anything if the squadron doesn't fix the problems identified in the SUI as they are supposed to.
Correct. As we have to keep reminding people, IG's have zero authority over anything - they are not the "Secret Police of CAP". Their entire job is to investigate and report. Period. Any authority they may have comes from some other hat in their bag, and in most cases they should not put it on during the inspection.
One asterisk I'd put on that would be if the Commander(s) and/or staff of the next higher HQ are also the inspection team, in which case
for the sake of expedience, those inspectors could make suggestions and help fix things, however that's a minefield, because there really should be an inspection and score first, with remediation later.
The pitfall to IG's helping to "fix things" is that they are not in the chain, nor involved in the programs of the respective unit, and they may well suggest subjective remediation that conflicts with established SOPs for that Group or wing, because they have a different opinion about "x".
In fact, in some cases, something an IG indicates as a "finding" (requiring remediation), may not even be a required part of the program.
Quote from: heliodoc on February 02, 2010, 03:11:41 PM
Then there some senior members who could not supervise a trash can in to a corner
So how does that make it ok for cadets to be on SUIs? Some senior members drive drunk - does that mean its ok for cadets to drive drunk as well? Duh.....
Quote from: Rotorhead on February 01, 2010, 03:19:54 AM
Quote from: Lunsford on January 31, 2010, 07:19:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2010, 12:28:48 AM
Appearances.
Insulting. An adult being evaluated on their performance by a kid. Don't give me that "Cadets are experts of the Cadet Program" BS. Cadets have do not know what it takes behind the scenes away from the glamour to keep the cadet program running.
What tests do cadets take that "might as well be college level"?
Honestly, if you sent a cadet to interview me for an SUI, you wold be looking for my replacement as I would quit due to the lack of respect you would have shown me.
Though I agree with others when they say, "No, a Cadet should not be conducting Unit Inspections", that was pretty close minded of you to say you would quit (Which is not a good example to set) because a Cadet was sent. It would also be very insulting and disrespectful to the Cadet who was sent to conduct the Inspection.
That is just my two cents...
If you were to ask a cadet to evaluate a senior member who has been performing his area of specialty longer than the cadet has been alive, I can see how the senior member would be justifiably insulted and feel he'd been shown a lack of respect.
The cadet, on the other hand, being elevated to a position he does not merit, has no right to feel insulted nor does he merit any special respect in this situation.
Being insulted by something like that, is pretty narrow minded, and way over the top. If a Cadet is sent to conduct an inspection, then there is some logical reason behind it.
For an example... If Major General sent a Cadet to conduct an inspection, not saying she would, but if she did, would you feel insulted? Maybe that Cadet was sent to conduct an inspection because he/she
is mature enough to handle the responsibility, maybe because he/she
is qualified to conduct that inspection.
With all due respect, Quiting because a Cadet inspected your squadron would be the most selfish, most closed minded, most incredibly illogical thing someone of CAP rank could do.
Lunsford,
Does your science teacher send you down the hall to inspect history class because you sometimes are in that class?
Would i be insulted? yes i would, because having a minor child who technically cant make any decision's for him/her self telling me i need to change things in my squadron would a slap in the face.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you look at it) cadets all across the nation lack the training and understanding to carry out an inspection like this. Even some senior members don't have the knowledge base to do this, i know i don't and cant pretend i do.
Everyone wants to talk about cadet elites attitudes after NCSA, well think about the attitudes that could (i stress could) come off a cadet on an inspection team. I don't like this at all, and would be very insulted if cadets inspected me.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 03, 2010, 02:21:39 AM
Lunsford,
Does your science teacher send you down the hall to inspect history class because you sometimes are in that class?
Would i be insulted? yes i would, because having a minor child who technically cant make any decision's for him/her self telling me i need to change things in my squadron would a slap in the face.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you look at it) cadets all across the nation lack the training and understanding to carry out an inspection like this. Even some senior members don't have the knowledge base to do this, i know i don't and cant pretend i do.
Everyone wants to talk about cadet elites attitudes after NCSA, well think about the attitudes that could (i stress could) come off a cadet on an inspection team. I don't like this at all, and would be very insulted if cadets inspected me.
If you have read my posts earlier... I stated that I am against Cadets conducting Inspections due to Cadet Ranking. But my point I am trying to get across is, how illogical it would be to quit your CAP Career because a Cadet came and conducted an inspection. That's not only bad looking to your peers, but it is a bad example to set for Cadets.
After reviewing P52-14 and R52-16, I find nothing in the SDA concerning cadets performing, assisting or even attending an SUI in an Inspector capacity. It's not included in cadet training in any way, shape, or form.
Inspectors are trained and appointed to perform their duties, which includes training in a specialty track, something not available to cadets. Cadets do have the opportunities for training and receive a specialty track rating once turning senior, but the Inspector track is not one of them. The positions are not about maturity or even leadership.
Can a cadet handle it? Don't know. Don't even care. Justifying it with unlikely hypotheticals is a waste of time. There are plenty of seniors available to fill Inspector positions anyway, so the use of cadets isn't needed nor even needs to be considered.
So, to answer the original question: "Should cadets be allowed to conduct SUI interviews", the answer is no.
No, they shouldnt.
NO
Quote from: RiverAux on February 02, 2010, 08:47:49 PM
QuoteWill the cadet be given the power to dictate to the DCC of a unit what he/she is doing wrong and must fix? An inspection is pretty useless without the authority to fix what is wrong, especially as demonstrated by this board the general attitude of senior members toward the ideas of a cadet.
NO member of an SUI team has that power. They report back to the IG who reports to the Wing Commander who has the authority to do just about anything if the squadron doesn't fix the problems identified in the SUI as they are supposed to.
Alright, fair enough.
Although, I do think that my original point stands. While I have never doubted that a higher ranking cadet has quite a bit that he/she could contribute to the cadet program at higher echelons, I still think that if there is anything that a cadet COULD be doing that practices new skills instead of rehashing old inspection skills, then I would lean toward that direction. As I mentioned, I did a TON of different kinds of inspections as a cadet, and while I have never conducted an SUI, I am not quite sure how it would be a whole lot different from any other inspection.
I agree that no inspection is as easy as just checking off boxes. The key is having the background and expertise to know how to judge when someone is found in the gray area. This is even true for simple uniform inspections. I remember during my first uniform inspection, I found that I was not nearly as knowledgeable about things like uniform creases as I should have been. I didn't know nearly anything about the female blues uniform or hair requirements. I had no standard by which to judge the shine on a person's boots. I didn't know if the cutouts had to be shined, or if dull ones were okay. What about that weirdly-sized font on the CAP name tape? With time and experience, I learned to do an inspection in fifteen seconds per cadet, and could answer these questions.
The point is that I think a cadet COULD do this inspection, but like any inspection, it requires experience and knowledge enough to work through gray or lesser-known areas. ANY inspection is like that. I know for a fact that many seniors can't conduct a uniform inspection (or wear a uniform properly in the first place). Mainly, this is because the cadet program focuses a lot more on uniform wear than the typical senior program does.
So I don't think it's a matter of cadets being cadets, and that's why they can't do it. I think it's just a matter of different levels of knowledge in different areas, and until someone can explain how an SUI is going to provide some sort of extra skill or knowledge that would help a cadet progress in the program more than has already been taught by doing other sorts of inspections, I still am not sure why it would be worth the time necessary for the cadet to prepare adequately for the role.
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2010, 03:23:57 PMSo I don't think it's a matter of cadets being cadets, and that's why they can't do it. I think it's just a matter of different levels of knowledge in different areas, and until someone can explain how an SUI is going to provide some sort of extra skill or knowledge that would help a cadet progress in the program more than has already been taught by doing other sorts of inspections, I still am not sure why it would be worth the time necessary for the cadet to prepare adequately for the role.
Cadets are not trained for Inspector taskings, it's not included in the Cadet Program. They need to focus on their own progression in that program, and complete it. Specialty track training is not a focus for cadets, and should not be.
An SUI is only
part of what the Inspector program is about. It requires familiarity with the sections being inspected, to include the specialty tracks required for the job, regulations applicable, coordination between the unit level position and higher levels, and an idea of the big picture. How many cadets are familiar with a
single specialty track? Now, how many have expertise in multiple tracks?
Pulling out one part and farming it out to whomever you feel can do it creates problems. Cadets should focus on their studies, and not be concerned with things that aren't part of them. Let cadets be cadets.
Many people have great confidence in the abilities and aptitude of our cadets. That's a good thing, but it's not enough.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 03, 2010, 06:12:54 PMCadets are not trained for Inspector taskings, it's not included in the Cadet Program.
Cadets can be assigned to serve as an assistant to any senior member position. And cadets are required to complete a number of Staff Duty Analyses studying senior member positions as they progress through the program. Although none of the current SDAs are for the Inspector position, cadets are always welcome to study and assist where possible with inspector duties.
We can now continue to debate this subject on a theoretical basis. AFAIK, no cadets have served on CI or SAV teams in a primary role in the modern history of CAP.
(I can't be sure if they have ever served in a SUI situation, but it is certainly not commonplace.)
I still stand by my assertion(s) that cadets could be "used" on SUI's as long as they remained quiet and did NO inspecting of a unit.
Cadets on SAV's and SUI's will not happen any time soon
After being through a couple of SUI's in two different Wings......
I see no special skills in conducting a SUI other than being on IG types or some kind of assistant to someone conducting them. Biggest skill is not coming across as some RM type thinking that this is some kind of 5th Army ARMS inspection
I have been through a NUMBER of Army ARMS (12+) inspections that are FAAAAAAR more complex than any CAP SUI
Surely there's alot of "planning" for CAP SUI's.....but after chasing a checklist and "inspecting and looking" over continuity books for each department.... Specialty Tracks? I am sure that many a SUI "Team" does not know everything about Specialty Tracks and I bet even FEWER know that CAP still mentions the 55 series in the Stan Eval stuff. Granted, what's that got to do with anything...
There is an old saying.........that I saw on many Army MX offices...."It's so easy, a caveman could do it!!"
Quote from: Ned on February 03, 2010, 07:21:42 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 03, 2010, 06:12:54 PMCadets are not trained for Inspector taskings, it's not included in the Cadet Program.
Cadets can be assigned to serve as an assistant to any senior member position. And cadets are required to complete a number of Staff Duty Analyses studying senior member positions as they progress through the program. Although none of the current SDAs are for the Inspector position, cadets are always welcome to study and assist where possible with inspector duties.
We can now continue to debate this subject on a theoretical basis. AFAIK, no cadets have served on CI or SAV teams in a primary role in the modern history of CAP.
(I can't be sure if they have ever served in a SUI situation, but it is certainly not commonplace.)
+1
Quote from: heliodoc on February 03, 2010, 07:46:39 PMThere is an old saying.........that I saw on many Army MX offices...."It's so easy, a caveman could do it!!"
It's not the caveman's place to do it. SUI's are conducted by Inspectors, and are not the place to use a cadet because you have a spare one.
Cadets are not trained to perform Inspector duties, and should not be. It's not an "anyone can do it" job. It's a job that is supposed to be performed by those trained and appointed to do so. Anyone else doesn't belong, regardless of whether or not they're a cadet. This isn't about cadet ability.
Besides, a cadet remaining quiet and not performing inspection isn't being used at all. SUI's are not where training is to take place.
Theoreticals are a waste of time. "Could be", "what ifs", and "I don't see why not" are not legitimate reasons to do something. They're fantasies, plain and simple.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 02, 2010, 02:23:13 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 02, 2010, 02:17:12 AM
As a team member, no way.
However, when I had a group some years ago, we would always interview the cadet leadership (C/CC, C/CV/, C/1SGT) as part of the SUI focused on cadet program & activities.
Really?
Which page or section is that? What, specifically, did you ask them and where did you note the responses?
I don't recall seeing anywhere in the SUI guide that gives the inspection team carte blanche.
You ask the questions on the page, note the answers, and take your leave.
Really? You do?
CAPM 20-1, position description of Group CC:
"Be aware of accomplishments, problems, and degree of compliance by subordinate units with policies and directives through a system of inspections, reports, and staff visits. Inform the wing commander of progress toward achievement of objectives, notable accomplishments, problem areas, and other matters of interest."
From CAPR 123-3 1(a) (emphasis is mine):
1. General. Assessments are a responsibility of command. CAP commanders must continuously evaluate organizational readiness, efficiency and effectiveness. The inspection system provides the commander with a credible, independent assessment process to measure capability of assigned resources. The Bylaws of the Civil Air Patrol, Sections 10 and 23, and the Statement of Work for the Civil Air Patrol authorize the assessment of CAP units.
a.
Items subject to review include, but are not limited to the following:
(1) Implementation of policies, procedures, and regulations established by the Board of Governors, the Air Force, the National Executive Committee, the National Board, and National Headquarters.
(2) Management of personnel, corporate resources, and CAP programs.
(3) Compliance with CAP directives to include acquisition, control, use, and disposition of Department of Defense (DoD) excess property.
(4) Financial management and controls, accounting,and general fiscal responsibility.
An SUI is an opportunity for the more experienced individuals who ordinarily comprise the inspection team to listen to unit members, share their experience and expertise, and convey the members' concerns, attitudes, and challenges (as well as those impacting the unit as a whole, of course).
Ask the questions, note the answers, leave?!? What a tragic missed opportunity to help CAP personnel and squadrons! Indeed, what a waste of everyone's time...we may as well hire census takers to conduct CAP inspections, for all the knowledge required of inspectors (let alone shared by them) by your method.
You are confusing the Group CC's job with the IG's job. They are neither the same person nor the same job.
The SUI team's job is to ask the questions, note the answers and leave, not to offer their $ .02 on every nuance of every question or issue.
IG's and SUI teams observe and report. Period. The body they are inspecting for is then charged with remediation.
In situations where the next higher HQ staff or commander is part of the inspection team, that is a different story (I said that. Remember its OK to actually read the threads you respond to). However that is not always the case, as many wings inspect their units directly, and others don't have groups.
The passage from 123-3 is, like a support response from Microsoft, technically applicable but not much value to this conversation. It indicates for the record what higher HQ's are allowed to inspect (I suppose there is always somebody who will challenge an inspectors "right to ask"), but it is the SUI guide which outlines the process and questions the IG's are to ask and document, and other than places where online systems have outpaced the paperwork, or the reg has changed, the SUI is pretty comprehensive in regards to squadron operations.
We have the UCC/SLS/CLC/TLC and other PD opportunities, as well as higher HQ staff, to instruct members on squadron operations.
An SUI is not a "How to run a squadron class".
No, I wasn't "confusing the group CC's job with the IG's"...I was the group CC.
When I could be present (as I tried to be in most instances) I would generally speak to the cadet leaders personally; when not, I directed that one of the inspection team do so.
As for all the PD you mention, yes, that's formal instruction...however, there is no reason not to use an SUI as a chance to steer squadron staff in the right direction.
And, where the need arises, there is no reason an SUI (though more appropriately an SAV) should not be a 'how to run a squadron class'.
You are reducing it to a mechanical process, which I consider squandering an opportunity to help our members.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 04, 2010, 02:37:07 AM
there is no reason an SUI (though more appropriately an SAV) should not be a 'how to run a squadron class'.
You're still combining concepts to try and make your argument.
An SUI and an SAV are not remotely the same thing. By design an SAV has an "A" in the middle, as in "Assist".
You can do whatever you want with your units, but as a rule IG's are not there to instruct commanders how to run a unit, they are there to snapshot the unit as it exists and then report to the respective authority.
Where does it end? Do you simply fix all the administrvia problems that exist as you find them because the unit staff was too incompetent to be aware, then give them an "Excellent"?
Of course not...you grade them according to their performance, then, if time allows, give them some guidance how to improve....if not, arrange later support from group or wing staff.
I don't think we're going to agree on this, probably time to let it go.
Having been on both sides of an SUI I have no problem with older, well experienced cadets performing the SUI inspections. The SUI is more or less a yes/no line of interview with the unit inspected providing the documentation to support. It doesn't take a member with decades of experience or a MAster rating in the specialty to follow the SUI guidelines, determine the unit's answers and go over the supporting documentation. Besides, no unit's grade in any area should ever be made solely off of one person's subjective opinion and every rating has to/should be approved by the senior officer in charge of the SUI and/or the IG.
In short, a trained monkey could do the job. Anyone who has issues with a cadet doing the interview will probably have issues with anyone doing it that isn't a) higher in grade, b) more years, and c) finds anything wrong with their unit.
This kinda strikes a nerve, as I know of one unit in my Region who has their panties in a bunch because they bombed an SUI where cadets were part of the inspecting team. It doesn't appear to matter that the unit couldn't provide the inspectors (cadet AND senior) answers based on the SUI guidelines and couldn't/refused to provide documentation even after the SUI. Apparently all of that is irrelevent because a cadet asked a question.
Yeah what Johnmy Yuma says....
Doesn't take years or decades to read a checklist to see if a Sqdn is up to snuff.
Sure, I agree the SUI "team" is there to conduct and didi out of the area.
But those so called team determinations should not take over 15 to 30 days for a Sqdn to get its results and start working on the areas needed. There should be no...."Well it takes us CAP types 90-120 days to finish due to our full time jobs..."" Conduct it and do it in 30 day or less period....it should take no longer than this anywhere in the US is CAPers on a SUI "team " are "really serious" abiut the job at hand...
If that old addage of CAP experience is out there....then EVERYONE on that team should BE REQUIRED to assist the Squadrons who are faltering whether the Sqdn CC requests it or not.
If A SUI team is there just to evaluate and not mentor after the fact, then they do NO service to CAP and its successes, in the future!!
^ When inspected a year ago, I was told I did not have regulations accessable enough. I twice pointed out the paper regulations with all the updates added in the Squadron library. The 70 year old Colonel still made note that I did not have the regulations.
So we can play it on age both ways. Too young or too old to inspect. Honestly though unless you have something to hide, or know you are not doing the right thing, it does not matter who inspects.
Running a unit is so simple. Just follow the guides. Make sure your Officers are doing the same. Be honest and forward with everyone you come into contact.
I would love for a Cadet to inspect my Squadron. It would be a chance to show him or her how awesome my unit is compared to whatever unit they are coming from.
^^^
Which proves my point more and more..
How much CAP education, how many years of college, what age does it matter?
It's really time to owe up to it and say...anybody with the desire and the ability to conduct and mentor after an SUI should be able to do it.
'course there will those who say... this SUI inspection and we don't need to hold your hand or show you what needs to be done, because after all it is an inspection and YOU ought to have known this stuff..
But Spike's summary pretty much summarizes what it's all about....There is NO perfect CAP operation even in a SUI!!
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 04:56:58 PM
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Judging whether or not to check "yes" or "no" >:D
Quote from: Spike on February 06, 2010, 10:37:08 PM
^ When inspected a year ago, I was told I did not have regulations accessable enough. I twice pointed out the paper regulations with all the updates added in the Squadron library. The 70 year old Colonel still made note that I did not have the regulations.
This is the point where you respectfully ask for a break and get on the phone with higher HQ. IG's can't deny the laws of physics just because they don't agree with them.
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 04:56:58 PM
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Judging whether or not to check "yes" or "no" >:D
Oftentime that is exactly right.
But going back to what you quoted, in the cadet program section of the SUI there are 14 topics and most of them are subjective questions ("How does the squadron....") that require substantial judgment to evaluate within the SUI criteria.
For those who say that the inspector merely checks the box yes or no, this might be a good time to actually read the SUI Inspection Guide. I would guess that there as many subjective items as objective (although I didn't do the math), which would require an inspector to make a decision as to the inspection item meeting the intent of the regulation.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 04:56:58 PM
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Judging whether or not to check "yes" or "no" >:D
Oftentime that is exactly right.
But going back to what you quoted, in the cadet program section of the SUI there are 14 topics and most of them are subjective questions ("How does the squadron....") that require substantial judgment to evaluate within the SUI criteria.
I agree completely. Cadets can assist, but there should be a Senior Member making those calls.
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 09:29:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 04:56:58 PM
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Judging whether or not to check "yes" or "no" >:D
Oftentime that is exactly right.
But going back to what you quoted, in the cadet program section of the SUI there are 14 topics and most of them are subjective questions ("How does the squadron....") that require substantial judgment to evaluate within the SUI criteria.
I agree completely. Cadets can assist, but there should be a Senior Member making those calls.
+1
In addition....an older member has the life experince to deal with older CAP members. Let's face it, no likes being told they are doing things wrong....and they really don't like being told that by "KIDS" whether it is a 25 year old Senior member or cadets.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 07, 2010, 09:38:30 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 09:29:46 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: Spike on February 07, 2010, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 07, 2010, 04:56:58 PM
SUIs are often a bit more than just yes/no checklists. Sure, a lot of the items are like that, but on others some judgment is called for.
Judging whether or not to check "yes" or "no" >:D
Oftentime that is exactly right.
But going back to what you quoted, in the cadet program section of the SUI there are 14 topics and most of them are subjective questions ("How does the squadron....") that require substantial judgment to evaluate within the SUI criteria.
I agree completely. Cadets can assist, but there should be a Senior Member making those calls.
+1
In addition....an older member has the life experince to deal with older CAP members. Let's face it, no likes being told they are doing things wrong....and they really don't like being told that by "KIDS" whether it is a 25 year old Senior member or cadets.
Sorry, but as I've said before no one single inspector should be making the final call based on subjective findings. Whether a cadet or a Senior is the inspector their findings should be reviewed by the officer in charge of the inspection and any findings approved by them. If the chief inspecting officer is simply pencil whipping the findings of others, especially in the cases where the unit was on either side of the grading criteria, that alone should be grounds for a challenge and complaint.
It also sounds like perhaps some folks' opposition to cadets is less the member status as cadet than it is being judged by someone younger than them. All I can say is it's time to check your egos at the door.
Johnny,
I think you get me wrong.....
It is not that "I" don't want some young guy telling me what to do.
What I mean is that as a leadership exercise....I would not want to add the already painful burden of an SUI with the baggage that a cadet inspector could bring.
You can't check EGOs at the door...when you are going to someone Else's house/squadron and telling someone to just suck it up does not remove the fact that there will be tension. Tension that 99% of the cadets I have met are not yet equiped to handle.