Why 21 to be an officer?

[RiverAux]

Personaly, I don't see any legitimate reason that over 18 senior members shouldn't be officers, but then again I think the cadet program should end at 18.  If you end cadet at 18 then it makes sense to allow for 18-21 year old officers, but as long as the cadet program can run until 21 we might as well keep it the way it is. 

[IceNine]

I never thought I would say this but having been in all 3 parts of the program (cadet, FO, Senior)

There is a certain value for former cadets to be FO's first.  That value being, that FO's are in my experience "throttled" by the surrounding staff and in that have a much needed opportunity to space themselves from the cadet program.

[RiverAux]

Anything we can do to keep cadets in the program and becoming full-fledged young officers is a plus for CAP.  We lose almost all of them now and I think one of the reasons, not the main one, is the flight officer system. 

[Ned]

Just a brief off-topic reminder while folks are discussing throwing babies out with the bathwater:

The concepts of "adulthood" and "cadethood" are logically and historically unrelated.  Apples and oranges.

An "adult" is simply anyone who has achieved their 18th birthday.  (That age has changed several times in our nation's history and could change again.)

A "cadet" is a military student, most often in training to become an officer. 

Both CAP and the USAF have cadets that are above and below the age of 18.

No, really.  There are several thousand cadets over the age of 18 in the USAF at this very moment.

Historically, West Point has had cadets over the age of 40.


If Uncle Sam doesn't draw some sort of artificial line for cadets at 18, why should we?

You may now return to your discussion of Flight Officer grades. . .


But remind me, what problem are we trying to fix here by lopping off the Flight Officer grades (and/or a significant portion of our highly successful cadet program)?

[arajca]

In another thread Flight Officers were brought up.  The only reason we even have those grades is because of senior members who are not yet 21.

Is there a reason for this requirement, or is it just a historical anomoly from when the voting age was 21?

I believe it because some other agency said "CAP officers shall be at least 21 years of age."

[ddelaney103]

Just a brief off-topic reminder while folks are discussing throwing babies out with the bathwater:

The concepts of "adulthood" and "cadethood" are logically and historically unrelated.  Apples and oranges.

An "adult" is simply anyone who has achieved their 18th birthday.  (That age has changed several times in our nation's history and could change again.)

A "cadet" is a military student, most often in training to become an officer. 

Both CAP and the USAF have cadets that are above and below the age of 18.

No, really.  There are several thousand cadets over the age of 18 in the USAF at this very moment.

Historically, West Point has had cadets over the age of 40.

If Uncle Sam doesn't draw some sort of artificial line for cadets at 18, why should we?

You may now return to your discussion of Flight Officer grades. . .

But remind me, what problem are we trying to fix here by lopping off the Flight Officer grades (and/or a significant portion of our highly successful cadet program)?

You're the one comparing apples and oranges.  Sure, the AF has USAFA and JROTC, but they don't try brigading them together or expect one program will cover children and young adults from 13 to 21.

Right now CAP has 4 classes of people:

• Youths (Cadets under 18)


• Adults (over 21)


• "Kinda Adults" (FO's, who are SM's but can't have SM grade - because while 30 yr old Lt Col's and 21 yr old Capt's are OK, for some reason the idea of an 18 yr old 2nd Lt makes people break out in "OMG!" and "OH NOES!")


• "opt outs" (Cadets who are adults but want to be protected like Youths).

It seems we should have a method to bring all our adults under the same system.  I have no problem with the 18+ crowd continuing to study and test in the CP and have the opportunities for IACE and other cool Cadet stuff, but in the end they should be working with adults and not brigading with the middle schoolers.

Finally, since grade adds no authority or responsibilities to a SM, the idea of special grades to the under 21 crowd is silly.  If we trust them enough to let them in CAP, they're worthy of the (lack of) responsibilities and authorities of regular SM grade.

[RiverAux]

Ah, don't forget that "pre-cadet" program we're starting....

[O-Rex]

My dad was a World War II bombardier, and he told me that he was 19 and long when he finished bombardier training, and was appointed a Flight Officer.  He was commissioned a 2LT when he turned 21, on Saipan.  It was a non-event, nothing changed except his rank insignia.  No ceremony, his aircraft commander gave him the paperwork and told him to stop by the PX and buy a set of gold bars.

Eerily familiar:

He was promoted to 2LT when he was in CAP 6 months.  It was a non-event, nothing changed except his rank insignia.  No ceremony, his squadron commander gave him the paperwork and told him to go online to Vanguard and buy a set of epaulets. 

[Cecil DP]

Historically there are many distingushed officers who were commissioned before the age of 21.

BG William "Billy' Mitchell, USA 18
MG Smedley D. Butler, USMC, 16, Awarded 2 Medals of Honor
GEN Robert M. Cushman, USMC, 20, Commandant USMC, 1972-75
LT George Bush, USN, 17, President of the United States
Col Oliver Wendell Holmes, 18, Justice of the Supreme Court
LTG Arthur MacArthur, 18, Medal of Honor,
Maj Audie Murphy, 18, Medal of Honor, DSC, etc
GA Omar N. Bradley, 20, 1st Chairman JCS

[Cecil DP]

In another thread Flight Officers were brought up.  The only reason we even have those grades is because of senior members who are not yet 21.


I don't have a reference, but I believe that the military requires it for commisions. Besides, would you really want an 18 year old running around with Lt's bars? 

Actually you can be a "Commissioned " Officer in CAP if you already have a federally recognized commission. Many years ago we had a cadet who was nominated for the West Point Prep School at the age of 18. Unfortunately he didn't speak math and dropped out. He than enlisted in the MDARNG and attended their Officer Candidate School and was commissioned at the age of 18 (maybe 19). With that he was eligible for 2Lt in CAP before turning 21. He might even still be a member in NATCAP Wing

[Ned]

You're the one comparing apples and oranges.  Sure, the AF has USAFA and JROTC, but they don't try brigading them together or expect one program will cover children and young adults from 13 to 21.

I'm not seeing your point.

Uncle Sam has cadets over and under 18 in every service because all of those cadets are in training, not performing missions.

Kinda like CAP.

The whole point of the cadet program is leadership training; performing ES is a useful and optional part of the program.

The whole point of the senior program is to perform missions; ES, AE, and/or CP.  Leadership training is a useful and optional part of the senior program.

I have no huge investment in the FO program.  If we could actually identify a problem with it, we could modify it as necessary.  Heck, we did that with the old Warrant Officer program that existed before.

But as near as I can tell, some folks just don't like the FO program.  And I am concerned that they will advocate taking action to "fix" the still undefined problem and in doing so harm our outstanding cadet program that has succeeded for over half a century while working with young men and women up to the age of 21.

[Eagle400]

The whole point of the senior program is to perform missions; ES, AE, and/or CP.  Leadership training is a useful and optional part of the senior program.

Yes, but leadership training should be required for the senior program, just as it is for the cadets.  How can anyone expect an officer to be an officer if he/she doesn't have the tools they need to lead and be effective at communication and management?

Sorry, but you show me a CAP officer that has not taken leadership training, and I'll show you an officer I can't trust to be effective.     

[Ned]

Yes, but leadership training should be required for the senior program, just as it is for the cadets.  How can anyone expect an officer to be an officer if he/she doesn't have the tools they need to lead and be effective at communication and management?

Sorry, but you show me a CAP officer that has not taken leadership training, and I'll show you an officer I can't trust to be effective.     

I don't really disagree.  We should require more leadership training for promotion.

Remember, you can get promoted to Lieutenant Colonel with less than two weeks of leadership training spread over several decades.

(a weekend's worth of SLS, another for CLC, and a whole week of RSC.  And of course the majority of those curricula are actually technical stuff rather than leadership training, so the reality is much, much less)

[Hawk200]

In another thread Flight Officers were brought up.  The only reason we even have those grades is because of senior members who are not yet 21.

I don't have a reference, but I believe that the military requires it for commisions. Besides, would you really want an 18 year old running around with Lt's bars? 

Actually you can be a "Commissioned " Officer in CAP if you already have a federally recognized commission. Many years ago we had a cadet who was nominated for the West Point Prep School at the age of 18. Unfortunately he didn't speak math and dropped out. He than enlisted in the MDARNG and attended their Officer Candidate School and was commissioned at the age of 18 (maybe 19). With that he was eligible for 2Lt in CAP before turning 21. He might even still be a member in NATCAP Wing

An interesting case. However, there are no Civil Air Patrol commissions. Military commisions do not create a commissioned Civil Air Patrol officer. A military officer still wears a CAP uniform as an American citizen, not as a military member.

[Hawk200]

Yes, but leadership training should be required for the senior program, just as it is for the cadets.  How can anyone expect an officer to be an officer if he/she doesn't have the tools they need to lead and be effective at communication and management?

Sorry, but you show me a CAP officer that has not taken leadership training, and I'll show you an officer I can't trust to be effective.     

I don't really disagree.  We should require more leadership training for promotion.

Remember, you can get promoted to Lieutenant Colonel with less than two weeks of leadership training spread over several decades.

(a weekend's worth of SLS, another for CLC, and a whole week of RSC.  And of course the majority of those curricula are actually technical stuff rather than leadership training, so the reality is much, much less)

I would agree as well. Even many of the enlisted schools that the military offers have a great deal of  useful information. They could be tailored to CAP very easily. Plus, there are more than a few schools that CAP recognizes in lieu of CAP courses because they have that kind of leadership information.

[flyguy06]

I dont think the requirement to be 21 in CAP has anything to do with the military rules. CAP officers are NOT commissioned officers. SO it does not equate. Its just a rule CAP put down. There probably int some big rreason for it. Maybe because the minimum age to be a Senior member is 21 if you are a former cadet. I think its a stretch to equate it to the military

[mikeylikey]

^  I think we still have the 21 age for "Officers" in CAP because of legal crap on the Corporate side.

[Hawk200]

^  I think we still have the 21 age for "Officers" in CAP because of legal crap on the Corporate side.

For all we know, it may be an Air Force mandate that 21 is a requirement to be a full officer. Until we find something in writing, we just don't know.

Even if the Air Force did make it a requirement, I wonder where it would be in black and white. There seems to be a lot of unwritten "unrules".

[SDF_Specialist]

^  I think we still have the 21 age for "Officers" in CAP because of legal crap on the Corporate side.

For all we know, it may be an Air Force mandate that 21 is a requirement to be a full officer. Until we find something in writing, we just don't know.

Even if the Air Force did make it a requirement, I wonder where it would be in black and white. There seems to be a lot of unwritten "unrules".

Hawk, I would assume that it would be in the 35-5, but it only says that for an officer to get the grades, they must be 21. I agree that there should be an explaination as to why. Of course, it doesn't effect me, but it would be nice to know so that members can explain to other members why it is the way it is.

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I would assume that it would be in the 35-5, but it only says that for an officer to get the grades, they must be 21. I agree that there should be an explaination as to why. Of course, it doesn't effect me, but it would be nice to know so that members can explain to other members why it is the way it is.

Unfortunately, regs rarely explain their justifications. We just follow the reg.

As for the explanation, I too would be interested in hearing it, but I'm a little skeptical when it comes to some of the Air Force's stories. We've heard that we won't be authorized a boonie hat because it's a "combat" item (most people in a combat theater wear a Kevlar) to we can't have subdued nametapes because of Geneva convention stipulations (which considering that I've seen Army JROTC cadets wearing subdued tapes, I really don't buy that one either).

But you never know, the Air Force may surprise us and give us a legitimate reason. I think that if CAP and the Air Force were a little more honest with each other, we might actually be able to work together a little better.