Mandating ES participation in order to promote

[Storm Chaser]

So in those wings where CAP essentially has no ES role, because the ELT search mission is dying and other functions are covered by the state... Nobody rises above Captain because CP and AE is the mission and ES is a pointless time sink?

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

CAP is still one of the primary provider for overdue/missing aircraft search and rescue, as tasked by AFRCC. Even if these actual missions are few and far between, we still need to train for them. Furthermore, there are other missions in which CAP can participate. Every wing should identify needs within their states in which CAP can fill that void.

Finally, every wing has access to training funds. And if there are no aircraft involved in the training, they can request non-funded training missions. There's really no valid reason not to have ES training in a wing.

[Panache]

So in those wings where CAP essentially has no ES role, because the ELT search mission is dying and other functions are covered by the state... Nobody rises above Captain because CP and AE is the mission and ES is a pointless time sink?

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

No, but we do have Wings where ES participation is limited or non-existent due to local politics, and the nearest CAP aircraft is at an airport two hours away (and, as such, your chance of getting selected for a mission is slim).

[ZigZag911]

Take it out of the specialty tracks.

Make GES a requirement for completion of Level 1 (and the Mitchell Award).

Make a support function ES requirement for Level 2 (and Earhart Award) -- FLM, MRO, MSA.

I'd even be satisfied with just that...that we had a large number of our members with sufficient training to assist in some of these natural disaster responses where much of what we need is simply people qualified to show up and help out...hand out water bottles, help load supplies into a van, and so forth.

[Garibaldi]

Take it out of the specialty tracks.

Make GES a requirement for completion of Level 1 (and the Mitchell Award).

Make a support function ES requirement for Level 2 (and Earhart Award) -- FLM, MRO, MSA.

I'd even be satisfied with just that...that we had a large number of our members with sufficient training to assist in some of these natural disaster responses where much of what we need is simply people qualified to show up and help out...hand out water bottles, help load supplies into a van, and so forth.

GES is already "recommended" for getting out of Great Start in a few units...since they all have to take ORM and such...

[SarDragon]

Make a support function ES requirement for Level 2 (and Earhart Award) -- FLM, MRO, MSA.

FLM is a dying breed. That was my first ES qual WIWAC, and I continued it as a senior member until First Aid became a requirement, and my cert eventually ran out. I rarely see FLMs used these days, and many pilots these days are either reluctant to follow their directions, or lack the training to do so.

[abdsp51]

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

Overseas wings.

[Eclipse]

Make a support function ES requirement for Level 2 (and Earhart Award) -- FLM, MRO, MSA.

FLM is a dying breed. That was my first ES qual WIWAC, and I continued it as a senior member until First Aid became a requirement, and my cert eventually ran out. I rarely see FLMs used these days, and many pilots these days are either reluctant to follow their directions, or lack the training to do so.

Agreed - during missions, the aircraft are gone, and working airshows is risky and the ones with enough
planes to actually need marshallers generally have professional or venue staff and don't need CAP.

[THRAWN]

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

Overseas wings.

Name just one.

[abdsp51]

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

Overseas wings.

Name just one.

Ramstein, Spangdahlem,  and Osan all overseas wings that do not have ES opportunities. 

[LSThiker]

The ones with enough
planes to actually need marshallers generally have professional or venue staff and don't need CAP.

Disagree about air shows.  Maybe in your state, but I have participated in many air shows in my state that rely on the services of CAP for marshaling aircraft.  These are both large and small air shows.

[THRAWN]

Do we really have wings in CAP with zero (0) opportunities for ES participation?

Overseas wings.

Name just one.

Ramstein, Spangdahlem,  and Osan all overseas wings that do not have ES opportunities.

They have wing status now? When did that happen?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not squadrons, but wings?

So the wing count went from 52 to...?

Drat, Thrawn beat me to it!

[SarDragon]

O/S units are a special case. They are called squadrons, but the commander has, for the most part, the power of a wing commander.

There are also units in Misawa and Yokota, Japan, and Okinawa.

abdsp51 is correct that there is no ES component to O/S unit operations. Given that the longest time someone might be assigned to a single O/S unit is about three years, I don't see a big problem with ES related promotion requirements. YMMV.

[Eclipse]

The training is available for them just like any other member, just don't expect to use it.

No reason they can't do table tops to stay current, or even participate in state-side training
and even real-world missions remotely.

[SarDragon]

The training is available for them just like any other member, just don't expect to use it.

And who's going to do the training? There are usually three or four senior members at best, and there's no guarantee that they are ES qualified. None of the SMs in my unit were, and the folks who came in after my group weren't either.

No reason they can't do table tops to stay current, or even participate in state-side training
and even real-world missions remotely.

No reason? See above. And then, how about the 14-17 hour time difference? Not insurmountable, but not easy to schedule, either. Communication is certainly easier today than it was in 1988, but the rewards versus effort ratio is still very low. Many times the cadets do not afflliate with a stateside unit so that training is essentially wasted, especially if there's no practical work to back up the book learning.

[Eclipse]

^ Both are true, neither is insurmountable given the effort.

Also, one needs not be "Qualified" to train someone in a skill of general good use, which most ES skills are,
especially the ground quals.  Land navigation and field craft skills are never going to be "wasted" just because
you can't use them to save someone (today).  I gained most of my knowledge of that through the BSA with no
other reason then "because", later on it was an easy transition to CAP.  Tents and compass' work the same way here
as in Okinawa and Spangdahlem, and while CAP may not be involved in ES there, these members belong to the larger community
and nothing says they can't contribute and join other organizations which provide community service and response, both
on and off base.

Anyone with the regs and the initiative can figure it out on their own, many members have had to do that very thing.

[lordmonar]

The training is available for them just like any other member, just don't expect to use it.

No reason they can't do table tops to stay current, or even participate in state-side training
and even real-world missions remotely.

OS units can do the training....but we can't get credit for it.....as NHQ will not issue mission numbers....so no qual sign offs.

But having said that........not a lot of people out in OS land are anything but CP guys......so it is really not an issue.
The big hang up usually is the two conference attendance, CLS, SLS, and that sort of stuff.   

[Eclipse]

OS units can do the training....but we can't get credit for it.....as NHQ will not issue mission numbers....so no qual sign offs.

Is there a system-level block on being signed into a mission statside?

We've had more then a few real-world missions and training where people were signed in and
got credit and were not in the same city or state, no reason they can't to that for OS units (granted
we're talking mostly ICS administrative positions, branch or higher).

[lordmonar]

By regulation OS squadrons cannot do ES.

End of story.....just can't do it.

Any attempt to game the system is violating the letter and spirit of the regulation.

Does not mean we can't do the training to support our cadet activities.......but no one can get qualified, no one can maintain their qualifications.

[Eclipse]

By regulation OS squadrons cannot do ES.

End of story.....just can't do it.

Any attempt to game the system is violating the letter and spirit of the regulation.

The regulations disagree:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_004_14642E1BCED33.pdf

"7. Limitations. Overseas squadrons will be granted limited charters having all the privileges and
benefits of the regular CAP program with the following exceptions:

a. There will be no emergency services (ES) mission, although ES training is allowed if it is
within the confines of the applicable Status of Forces Agreement. Training funds are not available
for overseas squadrons, but members of overseas units are encouraged to participate in training as
possible when in the United States with any wing or by attending scheduled activities like the
National Emergency Services Academy. ES training conducted by overseas squadrons should be
coordinated with NHQ/DO who will inform the CAP/CC; NHQ/DO validates and approves training
in Ops Quals for members assigned to NHQ units including members of overseas squadrons."