Transfer to Patron Questions

[Angus]

Due to some issues in my personal life and the KofC of which I'm the Deputy Grand Knight (Vice Commander to none-brothers), I've decided I may need to step back from CAP for a bit.  I'm thinking of transfering to Patron member until some of this other stuff calms down.  Next year I'll be the top guy in my council which is prety much a full time gig. 

My question what do I loose?  I know I would loose TIG but I could care less about that.  Even though I want to finish the Professional Development Program, I've decided I won't accept any promotions.  My ES Quals all don't expire till late 2012 or 2013 (by which time I would be back).  So would I loose anything else or would I keep everything else I've earned over the past five years?

[Eclipse]

b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below.

1) Patron members may:
a) Receive a specially annotated membership card.
b) Receive the Civil Air Patrol News.
c) Receive discounts associated with senior membership (car rental, etc.).
d) Retain the last grade held prior to entering patron status.
e) Attend wing and region conferences and the annual National Board meeting and the National Congress on Aviation and Space Education sponsored by National Headquarters.
f) Attend special unit social events upon invitation by the commander concerned, such as anniversary celebrations, awards banquets, holiday parties, etc.
g) Use Civil Air Patrol ground transportation, but use of Civil Air Patrol air transportation is prohibited.
h) Transfer to active member status upon meeting active member qualifications. (See paragraph 3 below.)

2) Patron members may not:
a) Wear the CAP uniform.
b) Ride in or fly CAP aircraft. (This includes member-owned aircraft on CAP flight activity as defined in CAPR 60-1, CAP Flight Management.)
c) Participate in CAP activities in any capacity except to attend specified conferences and social events as outlined in paragraphs 3-1b(1)e and f above.
d) Be promoted while in patron status.

3) Transfers to patron member status will be submitted to National Headquarters on CAPF 2a. Section II, Duty Assignment/Status Change, will be used, i.e., transfer from "Active Status" to "Patron Status." The original copy will be forwarded directly to National Headquarters and the file copy placed in the members' personnel file. Members desiring to transfer back to active status will use the same procedure. NOTE: Patrons transferring to active status who have not previously completed the FBI screening procedures must include a FD Form 258 with the CAPF 2a

[Angus]

b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below.

d) Retain the last grade held prior to entering patron status.
e) Attend wing and region conferences and the annual National Board meeting and the National Congress on Aviation and Space Education sponsored by National Headquarters.
f) Attend special unit social events upon invitation by the commander concerned, such as anniversary celebrations, awards banquets, holiday parties, etc.

Regarding item "D" does that mean on my ID card it would still list me as Captain? 

as far as "F" does it have to be a direct invitation?  For example if an email goes out to multiple people like from a mass mailing does that count?

and on "E" since I'd not be allowed to wear the uniform I just wear appropriate business attire correct?

[FW]

yes

[Angus]

Is that to all or just one?

[MIKE]

I heard Patron status is only cheaper than Active status if you transfer to the National Patron Sq.

[Angus]

I'm not concerned with the cost.  It's just a time commitment thing.  I know I could be a "shadow" member of a unit, but I'm the type that it just wouldn't feel right to me.  Especially seeing as my current unit is so small.  The only thing my being a "shadow" would help with is to keep the numbers up.

[Ned]

( . . .) Grad Knight ( . . .)

Ahhh.  Memories.

Even after all these years I still fondly remember my Grad Night at Disneyland.

Just me, my date, and 30,000 other teenagers locked into The Happiest Place on Earth (tm) from 2200 until 0600 the next morning.

Sigh.


Sorry, what was the topic?

[Eclipse]

as far as "F" does it have to be a direct invitation?  For example if an email goes out to multiple people like from a mass mailing does that count?

IMHO it should be a direct invitation or an activity which pre-supposes non-members would be attending.  I believe the intent here is that patrons would not participate in regular meetings and activities, and should not just show up unannounced.  We've had some "issues" with that in my AOR - people who patron out and then show up like nothing changed.

and on "E" since I'd not be allowed to wear the uniform I just wear appropriate business attire correct?

Well, you have to wear something, though it would depend on what you are going to - a banquet would be wedding-esque attire, a BBQ, maybe shorts.  Nothing says you can't wear your non-uniform logo wear or a prop pin on your jacket, just nothing which is a uniform.

[a2capt]

There's always .. discuss it with the CC/staff/etc. and see if just stepping back is an option. Continue with PD as you can, staff positions aside, and participate when you can. That way anything that does come up that you can/wish to contribute to/participate in, in  a standard capacity ..

On a personal level, I wouldn't want to count time in grade during a period of withdrawal like that, but it may be easier to keep it "current" than the other if you do intend to return in a greater capacity later on.

[Angus]

as far as "F" does it have to be a direct invitation?  For example if an email goes out to multiple people like from a mass mailing does that count?

IMHO it should be a direct invitation or an activity which pre-supposes non-members would be attending.  I believe the intent here is that patrons would not participate in regular meetings and activities, and should not just show up unannounced.  We've had some "issues" with that in my AOR - people who patron out and then show up like nothing changed.
.

Well I mean like parties and the like.  Example Wing Holiday Party email sent out to entire wing would that count?

There's always .. discuss it with the CC/staff/etc. and see if just stepping back is an option. Continue with PD as you can, staff positions aside, and participate when you can. That way anything that does come up that you can/wish to contribute to/participate in, in  a standard capacity ..

On a personal level, I wouldn't want to count time in grade during a period of withdrawal like that, but it may be easier to keep it "current" than the other if you do intend to return in a greater capacity later on.

I'm not going to get anything higher than Captain, I have no interest in being a Major or LT Col.  So honestly the TIG is meaningless.

[Eclipse]

Well I mean like parties and the like.  Example Wing Holiday Party email sent out to entire wing would that count?

There's no way to answer that, because it will vary.  Your best bet is to ask.

I'm not going to get anything higher than Captain, I have no interest in being a Major or LT Col.  So honestly the TIG is meaningless.

I hear this once in a while and I don't understand the reasoning - if you want to be active and effective you need to be participating in
PD - it is the only way to really be informed and stay current in the program, and if you're going to stay current, why not accept the
promotions that go with that?

I can understand someone saying they don't want command, but grade isn't tied to that.

[Angus]

I'm not going to get anything higher than Captain, I have no interest in being a Major or LT Col.  So honestly the TIG is meaningless.

I hear this once in a while and I don't understand the reasoning - if you want to be active and effective you need to be participating in
PD - it is the only way to really be informed and stay current in the program, and if you're going to stay current, why not accept the
promotions that go with that?

I can understand someone saying they don't want command, but grade isn't tied to that.

I don't mind being in command.  I just don't want the grade.

I'm still going to finish the PD program when I come back because it can also help me in my real job. 

[a2capt]

Well, depending on how far you go in the PD program, the grade comes with it. So...

[Angus]

I see nothing that says the grade comes with it.  you have to do them to get the grade as well as be submitted for the promotion.  I just tell my commander don't submitt me. 

[jimmydeanno]

How are you going to finish the PD program without getting promoted to Major?  Unless you've already completed ACSC or AWC (or equivalent), you can't go to National Staff College unless you're a Major.  You also can't enroll in the correspondence versions of the above courses unless you get yourself promoted.  Just sayin'.

[Angus]

Then I'll end with Level IV.

[flyboy53]

The real solution here is not to transfer to patron status, but to take a less active role in  your unit.

Sure, patron status is for inactive members, but that status is more for those members who, for what ever reason, have chosen not to complete various levels of training or take a very inactive role.

Patron status is such a gray area. Unit commanders are advised to transfer non-performing members to wing-level patron status (I think those are called ghost units) so that their lack of participation doesn't impact on the regular unit, especially in those areas such as safety or CPPT. I've known of some invididuals, in a pending 2B status, being assigned to patron status until there was a final outcome. I'm also aware of persons rejoining the CAP into the NHQ Patron unit not being allowed hold their previous rank, becoming plain senior members again instead.

If you are intending to continue on with the PD Program, than you are saying that you chose to remain active in some manor. Otherwise, chosing to move to patron status could mean that you lose touch with what's really going on within your wing/unit and you risk future progression. Consider this, you want to continue to pursue PD but then an application to attend some sort of training may be denied due to your patron status and a lack of something being completed -- and you have no way of making up the deficiency quickly.

You would be better served, as would your unit, if you addressed your concerns with your unit commander and just became inactive for a while. I don't think there would be a unit commander in the entire organization who wouldn't respect that.

[Angus]

The real solution here is not to transfer to patron status, but to take a less active role in  your unit.

Sure, patron status is for inactive members, but that status is more for those members who, for what ever reason, have chosen not to complete various levels of training or take a very inactive role.

Patron status is such a gray area. Unit commanders are advised to transfer non-performing members to wing-level patron status (I think those are called ghost units) so that their lack of participation doesn't impact on the regular unit, especially in those areas such as safety or CPPT. I've known of some invididuals, in a pending 2B status, being assigned to patron status until there was a final outcome. I'm also aware of persons rejoining the CAP into the NHQ Patron unit not being allowed hold their previous rank, becoming plain senior members again instead.

If you are intending to continue on with the PD Program, than you are saying that you chose to remain active in some manor. Otherwise, chosing to move to patron status could mean that you lose touch with what's really going on within your wing/unit and you risk future progression. Consider this, you want to continue to pursue PD but then an application to attend some sort of training may be denied due to your patron status and a lack of something being completed -- and you have no way of making up the deficiency quickly.

You would be better served, as would your unit, if you addressed your concerns with your unit commander and just became inactive for a while. I don't think there would be a unit commander in the entire organization who wouldn't respect that.

Evidently you don't understand what I'm talking about so I think you should understand.  Grand Knight in the Knights of Columbus is similiar to a Squadron Commander, which means it's another full time job on top of my real job.  i've got family issues up the ying-yang, so if I stuck it out with my unit I would be one of those non-participating members that should be transfered to Patron but never are.  i'm going to do the PD when I return and can actually commit the time to it that it truly deserves.

[flyboy53]

The real solution here is not to transfer to patron status, but to take a less active role in  your unit.

Sure, patron status is for inactive members, but that status is more for those members who, for what ever reason, have chosen not to complete various levels of training or take a very inactive role.

Patron status is such a gray area. Unit commanders are advised to transfer non-performing members to wing-level patron status (I think those are called ghost units) so that their lack of participation doesn't impact on the regular unit, especially in those areas such as safety or CPPT. I've known of some invididuals, in a pending 2B status, being assigned to patron status until there was a final outcome. I'm also aware of persons rejoining the CAP into the NHQ Patron unit not being allowed hold their previous rank, becoming plain senior members again instead.

If you are intending to continue on with the PD Program, than you are saying that you chose to remain active in some manor. Otherwise, chosing to move to patron status could mean that you lose touch with what's really going on within your wing/unit and you risk future progression. Consider this, you want to continue to pursue PD but then an application to attend some sort of training may be denied due to your patron status and a lack of something being completed -- and you have no way of making up the deficiency quickly.

You would be better served, as would your unit, if you addressed your concerns with your unit commander and just became inactive for a while. I don't think there would be a unit commander in the entire organization who wouldn't respect that.

Evidently you don't understand what I'm talking about so I think you should understand.  Grand Knight in the Knights of Columbus is similiar to a Squadron Commander, which means it's another full time job on top of my real job.  i've got family issues up the ying-yang, so if I stuck it out with my unit I would be one of those non-participating members that should be transfered to Patron but never are.  i'm going to do the PD when I return and can actually commit the time to it that it truly deserves.

Do you think you are the only CAP member who has committments outside the organization? Do you think you are the only CAP member who has to balance their participation with work, family and other committments.

Actually, stand in line. You haven't lived until you have a government job schedule that requires total devotion and has meetings or other activities after hours or during weekends, a family situation with a son suffering from a mental illness, and you happen to be a group commander who is an aircrew member and responsible for 250 cadets and senior members in six squadrons; two aircraft; two vehicles; and a relatively active ops tempo. Fortunately, I have a very understanding and supportive wife...who, by the way, is a CAP officer.

For the record, in my case, it was the command slot that I chose to end, which means that you carry a lot of guilt because you perceive yourself as a failure...it also meant that earning a GRW and senior observer wings afterward were actually bitter-sweet accomplishments.

So, in other words...been there. Although I commend you for your service and devotion to duty, ultimately it is you that has to make the choice that best fits your needs, desires and committments.

[Stonewall]

I just switched to patron status yesterday because I am inactive and don't plan on becoming active again, if at all, for a few years.  I saw the reg that says it's $35 but failed to see the requirement of being in the NHQ patron squadron.   Personally, I think it's crap for charging me $62 just to hold my membership.

[Eclipse]

I just switched to patron status yesterday because I am inactive and don't plan on becoming active again, if at all, for a few years.  I saw the reg that says it's $35 but failed to see the requirement of being in the NHQ patron squadron.   Personally, I think it's crap for charging me $62 just to hold my membership.

You have to go to NHQ patron?  Is this new?  We have plenty of patron members attached to units in my wing.

[ßτε]

I just switched to patron status yesterday because I am inactive and don't plan on becoming active again, if at all, for a few years.  I saw the reg that says it's $35 but failed to see the requirement of being in the NHQ patron squadron.   Personally, I think it's crap for charging me $62 just to hold my membership.

You have to go to NHQ patron?  Is this new?  We have plenty of patron members attached to units in my wing.

I think he is saying that in order to pay only $35, he would need to be in the NHQ patron squadron.

[Stonewall]

I think he is saying that in order to pay only $35, he would need to be in the NHQ patron squadron.

This.  Not sure how to get in on that deal though; to transfer to NHQ.  I'll have to talk to my Sq CC and see how much it's gonna cost me.  I'm not a cheap SOB, but I don't appreciate having to drop $62 a year to simply maintain my membership.  They can keep the Volunteer magazine if they want, I never read it anyway.  I usually drop it off at a doctor's office or Jiffy Lube, which ever comes first.

[Angus]

I just switched to patron status yesterday because I am inactive and don't plan on becoming active again, if at all, for a few years.  I saw the reg that says it's $35 but failed to see the requirement of being in the NHQ patron squadron.   Personally, I think it's crap for charging me $62 just to hold my membership.

You have to go to NHQ patron?  Is this new?  We have plenty of patron members attached to units in my wing.

I think he is saying that in order to pay only $35, he would need to be in the NHQ patron squadron.

So the patron membership fee to stay in the same wing is the same as if i were to stay on active but just be "shadow" member?

[Grumpy]

( . . .) Grad Knight ( . . .)

Ahhh.  Memories.

Even after all these years I still fondly remember my Grad Night at Disneyland.

Just me, my date, and 30,000 other teenagers locked into The Happiest Place on Earth (tm) from 2200 until 0600 the next morning.

Sigh.


Sorry, what was the topic?

:clap:

[Grumpy]

Why not just put a letter requesting a Leave of Absence in your 201 file (Personnel) and a copy in the squadron's files.
That way you're still able to attend activities when ever possible and you're covered for SUI's and the like?

[Eclipse]

Why not just put a letter requesting a Leave of Absence in your 201 file (Personnel) and a copy in the squadron's files.
That way you're still able to attend activities when ever possible and you're covered for SUI's and the like?

There is no allowance in the system for LOA's, so you would pop up on every report when something required wasn't completed.

[AirAux]

Numbers are of supreme importance to small squadrons, so I think you would be best staying active and only participating when you can.  You will still need to do the necessary things, but so much of it is online that you can do it at home on your own time.. Such as the new Safety requirement for all members prior to March of this year, I believe.  If too many members drop out, the squadron may go back to flight status.  JMHO.

[Angus]

Numbers are of supreme importance to small squadrons, so I think you would be best staying active and only participating when you can.  You will still need to do the necessary things, but so much of it is online that you can do it at home on your own time.. Such as the new Safety requirement for all members prior to March of this year, I believe.  If too many members drop out, the squadron may go back to flight status.  JMHO.

You still have to show up at least once a quarter for face to face safety briefings.  The online only counts for the other two months. 

As far as show up when I can with my other responsobilities that's just about non-existant.  Plus I'm the safety and ES officer.  And when the commaner isn't there I'm the one who takes point with the cadets. 

[JeffDG]

Numbers are of supreme importance to small squadrons, so I think you would be best staying active and only participating when you can.  You will still need to do the necessary things, but so much of it is online that you can do it at home on your own time.. Such as the new Safety requirement for all members prior to March of this year, I believe.  If too many members drop out, the squadron may go back to flight status.  JMHO.

You still have to show up at least once a quarter for face to face safety briefings.  The online only counts for the other two months. 

Not anymore:
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2010_11_03_safety_education_and_ORS_0E855E8029EC2.pdf

[AirAux]

Well it sounds like you have already made up your mind about it so just do it.  We have given you plenty of excuses and reasons and ways to not go Patron, but you have successfully thwarted our attempts.. Carry on, have fun, and maybe we'll see you when and if you get back.  Life is about priorities and it is not our place to decide your priorities. 

[Angus]

Well my decision was made by my commander he doesn't believe I should go patron and refuses to sign a 2a to patron.  At least until it becomes absolutely necessary so basically not till I am the Grand Knight of my Council.  Until then he thinks I can be of some use to him.