Poor Pilot Performance Concerns Not Limited to Regionals?

Started by DG, October 22, 2009, 10:45:36 PM

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DG

The pilots of a Northwest Airlines jet failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.

Flight 188, an Airbus A320, was flying from San Diego to Minneapolis with 144 passengers and five crew. The pilots dropped out of radio contact with controllers just before 7 p.m. CDT, when they were at 37,000 feet.

The jet flew over the airport just before 8 p.m. and overshot it before communications were re-established at 8:14 p.m, the NTSB said.

The FAA notified the military, which put Air National Guard fighter jets on alert at two locations. As many as four planes could have been scrambled, but none ever took to the air.

"After FAA re-established communications, we pulled off," said Michael Kucharek, a North American Aerospace Defense Command spokesman.

As of Thursday afternoon, NTSB investigators had not yet examined the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, which were being sent to the NTSB lab in Washington for analysis. He said the agency was also seeking to interview the pilots, but had not scheduled a meeting.

Anthony Black, a spokesman for Delta, which acquired Northwest last year, said the two pilots have been suspended from flying while the airline conducts an internal investigation. He refused to name them or give further details on their background or what happened in the air.

FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "the Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

"Radar controllers were the whole time trying to make audio contact with that plane," said Tony Molinaro, an FAA spokesman in Chicago.

After the plane landed in Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, two airport police officers boarded the plane at the gate, which authorities said is standard procedure after a crew loses communication with air traffic controllers.


Jill

....the pilots stated they were so engrossed in a conversation about "airline policies"  that they didn't realize they overshot their destination. ???

ol'fido

If they had said a CAPTALK uniform thread, I know I'd believe 'em. >:D >:D
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

EMT-83

... or talking about the Delta flight that landed on the taxiway in Atlanta.

PHall

I think you can refer to them as former Northwest Pilots. The FAA already has the CVR.

sparks

Stupid pilot tricks, its' not the equipment but is the operators (usually) that's at fault. Is it possible the crew turned down the radio volume to carry on the conversation? I have done it and so have many others made that error. Also done the tuning error and failed to push the "flip-flop" button etc. Some errors are annoying and others , like this one are troubling. If the crew fell asleep they probably are done for at Northwest/Delta. Same goes for the 767 bunch that landed on the taxiway.

All of us should strive to do better.

Jill


sparks

Another forum wondered about flight attendant calls about the flight's status which would have awakened a sleeping crew. Typically there are a few concerning everything immaniable, cabin temperature, toilets, arrival time etc. I guess this crew didn't have any. The Cockpit Voice and Flight Parameter Recorders will tell all.  I hope for the crews future there is a good explanation

PHall

Quote from: sparks on October 23, 2009, 01:33:48 AM
Another forum wondered about flight attendant calls about the flight's status which would have awakened a sleeping crew. Typically there are a few concerning everything immaniable, cabin temperature, toilets, arrival time etc. I guess this crew didn't have any. The Cockpit Voice and Flight Parameter Recorders will tell all.  I hope for the crews future there is a good explanation

The Flight Data recorder will probably show straight and level flight, i.e. AFCS on heading and altitude hold.
If they had been in VNAV and LNAV the plane would have started down all by itself. The bloody thing would have flown the entire STAR if they had put it in the FMC.

And there had better be some lively, LOAD conversation on the CVR or they're toast.

SarDragon

LOAD, Phil? Dreaming of your beloved trash haulers?

How about loud? Or to yell like you did - LOUD!  ;D
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Thrashed

Quote from: sparks on October 23, 2009, 01:33:48 AM
Another forum wondered about flight attendant calls about the flight's status which would have awakened a sleeping crew. Typically there are a few concerning everything immaniable, cabin temperature, toilets, arrival time etc. I guess this crew didn't have any. The Cockpit Voice and Flight Parameter Recorders will tell all.  I hope for the crews future there is a good explanation

Our flight attendants are supposed to check on us once per hour for safety reasons.  I think I've gone at least 8 hours without hearing from them.  You have to beg these days for a drink.  You'd think out of 12 of them, one could see if we are alive.

Save the triangle thingy

sparks

If they pushed the CVR erase button this could take awhile.

N Harmon

NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

a2capt


bosshawk

I believe that it is 30 minutes.  THRASH can probably tell us authoritatively.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

FastAttack

Quote from: sparks on October 23, 2009, 01:44:21 PM
If they pushed the CVR erase button this could take awhile.

if they did then they are making their situation worst.


sparks

On the Airbus A318/19/20/21. The following conditions must be met to  erase:
The aircraft is on the ground, and the parking brake is on

Pressing the CVR ERASE push button for 2 seconds will then erase the tape.

The Airbus CVR records the previous 2 hours.

Of course doing so would also erase your job and maybe also your licence!

Supposedly the data is still retrieveable because the button activates a "soft" erase.

sparks

Fox news reported the A320 had an older style recorder tha only records the previous 20 minutes, that's would be when the crew was alert descending to land. The information may not be of any use, we'll see.

a2capt

My curiosity is .. if you screw up, and you know it, you make sure you outlast the loop so that everything they pick up is normal.

Then you can make up whatever story you want. IE, we were in a heated discussion . .. not sleeping.

I'd be very surprised if they get off with just remedial training. Even the "we were in a heated discussion" isn't a good thing.

Eastern Airlines flight 401 comes to mind. A heated discussion enough to make them forget about the flight, the FAF, Center, approach, etc .. is about the same as bumping a lever, button, whatever and sending the aircraft into a slight descent right into the ground.

sparks

If the tapes are inconclusive, management still will ask the crew why they didn't notice where they were. Situational awareness is even more important when flying at high altitude going 7 miles a minute. Even if they turned down the radio volume or took off their headsets/ear pieces, situational awareness is a gotcha. The only "out" would be if the navigation system was displaying erroneous information or the pressurization system malfunctioned putting everyone asleep.
We'll have to wait for the FAA/NTSB explanation.

wuzafuzz

If there is any kind of magnetic media in the recorder there is always a chance of recovering previous tracks because read / write heads don't always record in the exact same spot.  I know this is true of computer hard drives and might apply in this instance.  It's not easy, but the FAA can probably afford the high-speed low-drag facility that can do it.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

PHall

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 25, 2009, 01:13:05 AM
If there is any kind of magnetic media in the recorder there is always a chance of recovering previous tracks because read / write heads don't always record in the exact same spot.  I know this is true of computer hard drives and might apply in this instance.  It's not easy, but the FAA can probably afford the high-speed low-drag facility that can do it.

Most of the CVR's use a continuous loop magnetic tape. They record over the old data.

Fubar

It's one thing to not answer the aviation radio. It's another thing to not answer the aviation radio, the corporate radio, or the data terminal.

Something seems fishy here, that's for sure.

Thrashed

It's quite common to miss a call or never get a hand off from ATC.  To fly an hour without talking to someone while domestic is impossible if you are on the right frequency.  Most airline pilots monitor 121.5 in the #2 for ELT's and to hear ATC call you if there is a problem getting a hold of you on the frequency you're supposed to be on.  If all else fails, you put out those crisp new charts in your flight bag and look for a frequency box and start calling them one by one.  Eventually you will find the right controller.  This is not a rare occurance, it happens all the time.  Continental Express did it after 9/11 going into Newark.  They never descended and ended up over NJ at cruise altitude with F16's on their tail.  They were not asleep. 

Save the triangle thingy

a2capt

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

PHall

Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.


According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

FastAttack

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.


According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.


sparks

Round #1

From NTSB interviews with crew

************************************************** **********
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************** **********

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

October 26, 2009
************************************************** **********

NTSB ISSUES UPDATE ON ITS INVESTIGATION OF FLIGHT 188 THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT


************************************************** **********
In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold- Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation Safety Board has developed the following factual information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144 passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.

Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an overview of the interviews:

* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for over 5 hours combined.
* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000 hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot in command.
* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997. His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has about 5,000 hours on the A-320.
* Both pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation.
* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.
* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.
* Both said there was no heated argument.
* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit. The pilots said there was a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls from ATC even though both stated they heard
conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling system that was now in place as a result of the
merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.
* Both said they lost track of time.
* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure was providing instruction to the captain. The use of personal computers on the flight deck is prohibited by company policy.
* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before they were scheduled to land and asked what was their estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at
that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to MSP.
* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications, not their headsets.
* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied "just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company issues".
* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the flight attendants to check on the pilots during flight.

The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and other company personnel today. Air traffic control communications have been obtained and are being analyzed. Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed the following:

* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.
* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working during this recording. However, the crew's headset microphones recorded their conversations.
* The CVR recording began during final approach, and continued while the aircraft was at the gate.
* During the hours immediately following the incident flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely recording over several minutes of the flight.

The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight where there was no radio communication from the flight crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters to see if any information regarding crew activity during the portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be
obtained.





PHall

Quote from: emertins on October 27, 2009, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.


According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.

They may not lose their ATP, at least not permanently, but Delta has said that violations of the company "laptop computers in the cockpit" rule would result in termination.

FastAttack

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 02:40:56 AM
Quote from: emertins on October 27, 2009, 02:19:56 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.


According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.

They may not lose their ATP, at least not permanently, but Delta has said that violations of the company "laptop computers in the cockpit" rule would result in termination.

question is even if they get it back.. would you hire them?

I would be very skeptical of giving them a captain position ever again.

a2capt

I would say these guys just wrote themselves an early out without benefits.

Delta has been chucking people left and right. Aside what their brotherhood will give them, if they're not too upset over the black eye they just got.

I'd say they'll be doing charter or crop dusting, and they won't have to worry about that mean old scheduling system.

We'll see. Yes, there will probably be procedure changes because of this.

sparks

Early retirement, ground school/simulator instructor or a desk job until retirement might be the result.

SilverEagle2

Quote from: sparks on October 27, 2009, 04:39:20 PM
ground school/simulator instructor or a desk job until retirement might be the result.

At least they can use their laptops while doing their jobs then.  >:D
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

sparks

Top Ten Reasons to overfly Destination;

10. Bunch of fat guys seated on the right side of the plane made us vector east.
9. We get paid by the hour.
8. Mapquest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?
7. Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention.
6. You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails.
5. Wanted to catch the end of the in-flight movie.
4. Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting.
3. According to our map, we only missed our target by half an inch.
2. For a change, we decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers.
And the Number One reason...

1. Thought we saw balloon boy

a2capt

Quote from: The FAAThe FAA has revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot a runway by 150 miles during a 78-minute radio silence.

I'd say that their jobs as ATPs are .. done.

jimmydeanno

News article:

Quote
U.S. government regulators have revoked the licenses of the two airline pilots who flew an Airbus passenger jet past their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles last week.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday the Northwest Airlines pilots had violated numerous regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The pilots — first officer Richard Cole and captain Timothy Cheney — told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on their laptop computers.  continued in link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33497462/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

FastAttack

Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 27, 2009, 10:24:09 PM
News article:

Quote
U.S. government regulators have revoked the licenses of the two airline pilots who flew an Airbus passenger jet past their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles last week.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday the Northwest Airlines pilots had violated numerous regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The pilots — first officer Richard Cole and captain Timothy Cheney — told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on their laptop computers.  continued in link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33497462/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001

heh, I think the FAA will get their asses on the frying pan. I wouldn't doubt the pilot's union and lawyers will fight the quick revocation without getting the final investigative findings. Especially if they are being used as examples.

either way, their careers are over.


SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Nick

Ok, so he can't start his crop dusting career for at least a year.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

PHall

Quote from: McLarty on November 04, 2009, 05:41:25 AM
Ok, so he can't start his crop dusting career for at least a year.

It says he can apply for a pilot certificate in a year, they don't have to issue him one if the Administrator still feels he's a risk.

a2capt

Wow, I totally didn't even think about the fuel issues either.  The Letter didn't mention it in specifics, but if they loaded and filed within the regs they used up their reserve in the midst of all this, too.

blackrain

I've heard 20 minutes of fuel remaining as a number being tossed around.

Imagine if they were flying to and east coast destination with IMC up and down the coast. They could have found themselves 30 minutes out over the Atlantic with 20 minutes of fuel left.  They would be the second crew in the last year to ditch in an A320.

Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

Nick

Quote from: blackrain on November 04, 2009, 06:02:01 PM
Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?

While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept. :)
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

blackrain

Quote from: McLarty on November 04, 2009, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on November 04, 2009, 06:02:01 PM
Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?


While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept. :)

You actually touched on an issue with our air traffic control system. The radios used by ATC and aircraft are really outdated. Aircraft radios us AM while everybody else uses FM.

Many land based systems have a paging feature for a particular person or radio. I don't know why a radio installed in a particular aircraft can't be linked to that aircrafts N number by ATC with a more effective paging system. Aren't transponders already configured with a discreet (MODE S ?) code. Ping that crew only, at the beginning of the transmission, so they know that on a crowded frequency the following instructions are for them.

I admit I'm not an electrical engineer....the devil's in the details and all it takes is money. ;D
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

SilverEagle2

^^
If you study the differences in AM and FM, you will find a good reason why the FAA still uses AM. Wavelength, reflectivity, distance, etc...all things that FM would require additional/expensive infrastructure to provide comparable functionality. Of all things at the ATC disposal, AM radios are the least troublesome and most reliable.

My 2 cents.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

a2capt

As well, the system generally works very well. If they were that out of sync with their situational awareness, no amount  of paging would have worked. It should not have to come down to paging. Everyone listens on the same channel. Whats relevant to one may be relevant to many other aircraft.

Heck, they have a company text readout, they didn't pay that any attention either.

blackrain

Quote from: a2capt on November 05, 2009, 06:01:08 PM
As well, the system generally works very well. If they were that out of sync with their situational awareness, no amount  of paging would have worked. It should not have to come down to paging. Everyone listens on the same channel. Whats relevant to one may be relevant to many other aircraft.

Heck, they have a company text readout, they didn't pay that any attention either.

All valid points. I'm thinking from a human factors perspective it's easy to tune things out sometimes. Anyone with a wife and kids understands that.  ;D  I'm not saying filter out the comms on a frequency,  just for the reason you mentioned. Everyone needs to hear the cross talk but say for instance you have time sensitive ATC instructions then some way to alert that specific crew that they are being directed to change course to avoid a traffic conflict could be a lifesaver. We've all had a radio call garbled where you couldn't say for sure whether they were talking to you or another aircraft. May not have helped in this case but a tone in only your headset should be an attention getter.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

PHall

Quote from: blackrain on November 05, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Quote from: McLarty on November 04, 2009, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: blackrain on November 04, 2009, 06:02:01 PM
Any bets on how many crews are now setting the alarm on their watches for the approximate time to begin descent as part of their checklist?


While that's not a bad idea ... continually listening to the radio seems to be a real simple concept. :)

You actually touched on an issue with our air traffic control system. The radios used by ATC and aircraft are really outdated. Aircraft radios us AM while everybody else uses FM.

Many land based systems have a paging feature for a particular person or radio. I don't know why a radio installed in a particular aircraft can't be linked to that aircrafts N number by ATC with a more effective paging system. Aren't transponders already configured with a discreet (MODE S ?) code. Ping that crew only, at the beginning of the transmission, so they know that on a crowded frequency the following instructions are for them.

I admit I'm not an electrical engineer....the devil's in the details and all it takes is money. ;D

There already is such as system, it's called SELCAL (SELective CALling). It's used on the HF radios when crossing oceans.

a2capt

..and to be expected, they have appealed the revocation.

I'm sorry, based on the seriousness of what they did- It's absolutely astounding it turned out that nothing happened because of it, and that it served as a test for the systems that should have reacted and didn't.

You have an aircraft full of people, heck, it can be one even. They put their faith in the system that what goes on up in front of that locked door will be professional.

This was NOT professional. Not in the least.

DG

These guys fell asleep in the cockpit.

I don't care what anybody says.

They both fell asleep.

a2capt

Quote from: DG
I don't care what anybody says.
They both fell asleep.

Uhh.. yeah, I've kinda subscribed to this myself, too. Didn't matter what they say, either way they were screwed.

..and if not they might as well have, because .. after all that, *who was FLYING the plane*?!!?

They could have been headed for some nasty as all get out clear air turbulence as reported by another aircraft, a TFR could have popped up (I know, FL037....)

Something serious could have been going on and they were not able to be raised by any means.

a2capt

QuoteThe Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.


You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.


flynd94

Quote from: a2capt on December 07, 2009, 11:38:57 PM
QuoteThe Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.


You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.

Actually, there is fault to be found with ATC.  They were in the middle of a shift change, incoming controller wasn't informed that the aircraft was NORDO.  Just like anything in aviation, it was a chain of events.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I just find it interesting that none of the controllers have lost their licenses.   
Keith Stason, Maj, CAP
IC3, AOBD, GBD, PSC, OSC, MP, MO, MS, GTL, GTM3, UDF, MRO
Mission Check Pilot, Check Pilot

Eclipse

Quote from: a2capt on December 07, 2009, 11:38:57 PM
QuoteThe Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.

You have got to be kidding.

What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Ya know everyone keeps saying the "Northwest Flight" this, the "Northwest" flight that. I thought Northwest wa bought out by Delta last year? Its funny, when somethingbad happens Delta promotes it as a Northwest flight. But Delta owns Northwest now. They have neglected to mention any of that though.

Pingree1492

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2009, 02:23:55 AM
Ya know everyone keeps saying the "Northwest Flight" this, the "Northwest" flight that. I thought Northwest wa bought out by Delta last year? Its funny, when somethingbad happens Delta promotes it as a Northwest flight. But Delta owns Northwest now. They have neglected to mention any of that though.

To my knowledge, Northwest still kinda operates on it's own.  Now, I have NO idea about any of the upper level stuff going on in either airline, but I took a flight on Northwest this year, I went to a Northwest ticket counter, and everything was marked Northwest.  The only gist I got that a merger had happened was the flight attendant saying something about how Northwest AND Delta airlines welcoming me to XYZ city.  Now, I wasn't paying any particular attention to logos, etc, so maybe that has changed to incorporate something from Delta airlines, but from almost everything on that flight, I wouldn't have known that Northwest had gotten bought out.
On CAP Hiatus- the U.S. Army is kindly letting me play with some of their really cool toys (helicopters) in far off, distant lands  :)

DG

Quote from: flynd94 on December 08, 2009, 02:08:51 AM
Quote from: a2capt on December 07, 2009, 11:38:57 PM
QuoteThe Northwest Airlines pilots who flew past their destination city of Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21 have blamed air traffic controllers for the snafu.


You have got to be kidding.


What was ATC suppose to do, send up that Gulfstream with 'F' 'A' 'A' in the windows and come up beside them, and board like the open seas?


They tried to raise them, they tried visual and aural communications methods. These guys were simply out of it.

Actually, there is fault to be found with ATC.  They were in the middle of a shift change, incoming controller wasn't informed that the aircraft was NORDO.  Just like anything in aviation, it was a chain of events.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I just find it interesting that none of the controllers have lost their licenses.


Fact:  No radio calls to ATC for 77 minutes.

Come on, Keith.  77 Minutes!

Your comments imply that is acceptable practice to you.

Advise you not put your money on that horse.

They fell asleep.

BIG mistake not to have told the truth in the first place.

If they had, they would be fine, eventually.

But not now.


sparks

Transition from Northwest to Delta livery will take time and lots of money. Other than FA Gate Attendant announcements the first transition signs probably will be the elimination of Northwest ticket counters where both Delta and Northwest service an airport. Already happened at the airport I use.

It will be interesting to see if Delta designs a different paint scheme for aircraft instead of what they and Northwest are currently using.

flyguy06

I live in ATlanta (Delta town) I have many close firends thatare Delta pilots. We have a Delta ticket agent in my squadron.

The Delta merger happened earlier this year. All crew members should be wearing the same uniform. The logo has changed to a solid red Delta peak. Selniotiry lists have been merged already. I think the thing is they havent painted all the Northwest planes yet. And the cal signs with the FAA probably havent beenchanged over yet but Delta definantly owns Northwest now. Many of my NWA piots friends are not happy about it either.

Nick

Quote from: sparks on December 08, 2009, 05:52:11 PM
It will be interesting to see if Delta designs a different paint scheme for aircraft instead of what they and Northwest are currently using.
You mean something like American's? :)
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

flyerthom

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on October 27, 2009, 04:45:06 PM
Quote from: sparks on October 27, 2009, 04:39:20 PM
ground school/simulator instructor or a desk job until retirement might be the result.

At least they can use their laptops while doing their jobs then.  >:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UieFk6yq74w  >:D  >:D
TC