ATP may be required

[Thrashed]

The real problem with the Q400 / Colgan accident was that both pilots were fatigued because they were attempting to get sleep in crew lounges or crash pads all the time and the first officer had to work part time at a coffee shop to pay the bills. Oh well, until the flying public is willing to pay more for airfare I don't see how this problem get fixed. Even if the first officer of that flight would have had her ATP, I really don't think that would have saved them.

Fatigue is only one of many problems with those pilots.  I was fatigued many times flying for a regional (flying to the same airport in the same weather as they did) and I made mistakes while fatigued.  They had more than fatigue problems.

[MooneyMeyer]

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

[Mustang]

^ Totally agree with that. Although in order to get that 135 job, you need 1200 hours. career changers that start at age 35. Do they have time to go work for a pt 135 and then work their way  up to a 121?

They sure better...I'm a career changer and 42.

[Thrashed]

I wouldn't put fatigue at the top.  I'd put incompetence at the top.  Opposite reaction to a stall.  Raising flaps when slow.  These are all pre-solo skills.  My wife, who isn't a pilot, even knew this when she heard the story on the news.  If you don't know how to fly, being fatigued or not won't help you. 

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

[flynd94]

I wouldn't put fatigue at the top.  I'd put incompetence at the top.  Opposite reaction to a stall.  Raising flaps when slow.  These are all pre-solo skills.  My wife, who isn't a pilot, even knew this when she heard the story on the news.  If you don't know how to fly, being fatigued or not won't help you. 

Most all accidents are a combination of many factors. All I was saying there was that the most significant factor was fatigue. Fatigue that could be immensely reduced if the pilots were payed enough to actually afford to either live at their home base or stay at a decent hotel there. The first officer there had traveled all night on several flights from Seattle to the east coast and only caught a nap in the crew lounge right before the flight. There initial move was to pull back on the stick when they saw their airspeed and altitude declining, even with the stick shaker going. You don't need an ATP certificate to know how to properly recover from a stall. There were other contributing factors, ignoring the sterile cockpit rules for instance, but I still contend that pilot fatigue was the number one factor there. I'm sure you'd agree that with all the training, expense, and responsibilities that pilots experience they deserve to make more money than what they are paid now.

I agree with you completely.  Fatigue was an issue but, come on folks, it was a freaking stall!!!  I think I earned my way to the airlines (i wasn't a 500hr wonder kid), I flight instructed, traffic watch, 135 freight dog, rj driver (furloughed) and, now a B1900 Captain.

You want to see whats wrong with aviation, come spend a week with me.  Start your day with a 0330 wake up call, 0415 van, 0515 departure, fly 8 legs (with the high probability of at least 3-4 approaches, full procedure) and, finally back to your hotel by 1630.  This in a 1900, with an FO who no experience.  I spend a great deal of my time, playing flight instructor.

I am all for the 1500/ATP requirement, real rest rules and, real pay.  Yes, I choose this lifestyle and, don't regret it at all.  Its been a great ride, just wish it wasn't as bumpy.   

[Nolan Teel]

I'm not sure how I feel about this would be requirement.  I will say this.  Give all pilots a better QOL... Pay better, better benefits, more pilots per airplane and dare I say just cause you can use your pilots for the max duty day, dont.

[Thom]

I'm not sure how I feel about this would be requirement.  I will say this.  Give all pilots a better QOL... Pay better, better benefits, more pilots per airplane and dare I say just cause you can use your pilots for the max duty day, dont.

The root problem with your (entirely sensible) proposal, and indeed with almost all of this current issue is this:

Making the necessary changes to commercial pilot pay and scheduling would require 'joe average' the air travel consumer to accept that the real cost for a round trip from Miami to Los Angeles is NOT $249, but closer to $649.  Until the traveling public understands that the costs of air travel have been dramatically understated for years, nothing will change.  Sorry.

Thom Hamilton

[Thrashed]

It's hard to convince the flying public to pay what it costs to fly when "discount" airlines under-cut the prices, forcing all airlines to lower prices to compete.  The passengers are getting what they ask for.  They don't care what plane, airline, or pilot as long as they save one dollar doing it.  What is the price of safety and quality?

[Eclipse]

The passengers are getting what they ask for.  They don't care what plane, airline, or pilot as long as they save one dollar doing it.

Why should they? The average passenger, his father, and grandfather (at the least), have grown up with air travel being a "given" - its no longer all that exciting in the grand scheme, nor should it be.

Safety should never be compromised, and if that means costs go up, so be it - knowing what I generally pay for tickets, I have no idea how the airlines can afford to operate at all, but that's not my problem as a passenger - this is a business, plain and simple.

Those who romanticize air travel are missing the point.

[flyguy06]

I dont think its an issue of airlines rasing their prices. I think the airlined need to pay their pilots more and stop using the revenues to fatten the Executives pockets or by extra things they really dont need. They need to pay thepilots what they are worth.

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Pilots are professinals like doctors andlawyers yet they dont get paid the same. thats where I see the problem lying.

[Nolan Teel]

I think its funny how Doctors can practice medicine, lawyers can practice law... Why can't a pilot practice aviation:)

[CASH172]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job. 

[airdale]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience ... Doesnt that count for something?

As someone pointed out, all hours are not equal.  I also find it telling that the CFI is the only rating for which there is no "Aeronautical Experience" requirement in Part 61.  A CFI may never have landed anywhere but his/her home airport and the airports required for the private and commercial cross-countries.  A CFII does not ever have to have flown in a cloud.  The inexperienced teach the inexperienced, then move up to fly (and occasionally kill) the unwitting.

The CVR quotation from the Colgan Buffalo crash that sticks with me is the FO:

"... I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had when I came here."

There is something wrong with the requirements.  "Hours" is not an adequate surrogate for real-world experience. 

[Flying Pig]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

[CASH172]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

That includes getting a degree.  But, yes that is how much people are paying.  The shiny jet syndrome is enough of a incentive for people to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get to a job for crappy pay.  What gets me are the guys that will spend $10,000 to try and solo or those that spend close to $30,000 trying to get a private. 

I know that NROTC - Marine option can pay for it.  Also, the new Yellow Ribbon covers the cost for those that qualify.  Don't ask me where the rest of some of these people get their money from.  Most are inline to be in-debt for decades to come.  But this is the reality of where pilots are coming from. 

[DG]

Its amazing. A pilot that went the civilain route pribably pays $30-60K (the far end if he went to Embry Ridle) for all his licenses and thehours required to get to an airline. thats about the same if not more than medical school or law school. The responsibility of anairline pilot who is responsible for thevery lives of the travelling public and yet they make a fraction of what Doctors and Lawyers make.

Wow, I wish I only have to pay $60K.  Tuition in itself is only $120K plus additional flight training which is around $40K depending.  Luckily, I've got a few scholarships lined up.  The good thing about this bill is that it's hopefully going to raise pilot pay by narrowing down the pool of qualified individuals.  Of course, it'll also delay the time before one can enter that kind of job.

Your going to pay $160K for flight training?

WOW.  Somebody is making money in this scam.

[Flying Pig]

^Yup.

At work, we fly an MD500E.  We have the DOC's costs down to $190 per hour.  I head down to the local flight school for a Turbine Transition, they will charge me $850-900 per hour to fly the same helicopter.

[flyguy06]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience ... Doesnt that count for something?

As someone pointed out, all hours are not equal.  I also find it telling that the CFI is the only rating for which there is no "Aeronautical Experience" requirement in Part 61.  A CFI may never have landed anywhere but his/her home airport and the airports required for the private and commercial cross-countries.  A CFII does not ever have to have flown in a cloud.  The inexperienced teach the inexperienced, then move up to fly (and occasionally kill) the unwitting.

The CVR quotation from the Colgan Buffalo crash that sticks with me is the FO:

"... I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had when I came here."

There is something wrong with the requirements.  "Hours" is not an adequate surrogate for real-world experience.

A CFI is a teaching certificate not a flying certificate. Thats why its serperate from your pilots license. For example a BFR may be substituted by any checkride except the CFI  checkride. The CFI checkride isnt a test of your flying abilities. Its a test of your teaching abilities.

Thats why CFI's have a "pilots" certificate as well as a Flight Instructor ceritificate

[flyguy06]

^Yup.

At work, we fly an MD500E.  We have the DOC's costs down to $190 per hour.  I head down to the local flight school for a Turbine Transition, they will charge me $850-900 per hour to fly the same helicopter.

I was prepping for a regional airline inerview and paid $600 for an hour in a CRJ full motion sim at Flight Safety. It was the same sim th regional would have used to test me on during the interview.

[airdale]

A CFI is a teaching certificate not a flying certificate.

Yes.  You're really helping me make my point:  One can get a CFI and CFII without having significant real-world flying experience, then proceed to log hundreds and hundreds of dual-given PIC hours -- that count towards the ATP requriement -- without ever gaining much more real-world experience.  I don't argue that dual-given experience is valueless, but I do argue that it does not have much relevance to a Part 121 flying job.