ATP may be required

[Flying Pig]

Stand by kids.  The House is submitting a bill wanting to require ALL regional carrier pilots, not just captains, to have an ATP before they can be hired.  So the days of getting on with 800 hrs and some multi-time may be over.  So all you working CFI's out there, start studying for your ATP and expect to be in that Piper Tomahawk a little longer.

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FAA Administrator Babbitt, testifying before the House Transportation and Infrastructure Aviation Subcommittee, said that some regional carriers have failed to respond to his June 24 letter asking them to upgrade record disclosure policy for pilot applicants and improve flight operations quality assurance programs.

Babbitt told lawmakers, "I am prepared to make those who are unresponsive known to the general public," by the end of September. The letter, which went to 104 regional lines and eight of their unions, demonstrated the need for legislation mandating airline safety upgrades, according to Aviation Subcommittee Chairman Jerry Costello (D-Illinois).

Babbitt vowed to shore up what he described as uneven professionalism in the airline industry. "Although professionalism prevails in the vast majority of the aviation workforce, it is not uniform. The standards are the same; the training is the same, but the mentality is not the same."

Witnesses clashed over a provision in a pending House aviation safety reform bill that would mandate that all airline pilots, not just captains as under current law, have an Air Transport License, which requires at least 1,500 hours of flying time.

Airline Pilots Association President John Prater backed the tougher licensing standard, saying it was unacceptable for airlines to hire young, relatively inexperienced pilots to help fly aircraft that carry large numbers of passengers.

Babbitt urged a compromise that melded experience with training. He noted that although each of the two pilots involved in the January 1982 Air Florida crash in Washington had thousands of hours of flying time, they lacked training in the use of aircraft de-icing systems.

The Wall Street Journal reported on September 24 that NATCA members on Wednesday ratified a labor contract with the FAA that will see the government paying out an extra $700 million over the next three years. According to the Journal, the pact will raise the salaries of veteran air traffic controllers by an average of $9,000 over three years, while new hires will see a bump of about $45,000 to their base pay over the same period. The ratification ends a three-year conflict between the union and the agency.

[heliodoc]

Yep

I am already ready for this being at my low "time buildin " days

Reality has come home to roost....

[Flying Pig]

What I still find interesting, and I guess its just the nature of the beast, but I can have a full 1000 hrs of high performance time consisting of actual single pilot IFR, x-country, night, NVG, and mountain PIC time but a CFI with 1500 hrs of right seat Tomahawk time is still more "qualified".  Oh well.  Im glad Im not looking for a job!

[Thrashed]

It's the old quantity vs. quality argument.  Nothing new.  The fact that under-standard pilots are getting hired has nothing to do with either.  The 1500 hours is a move in the right direction.  I had 4000 when hired at a regional.  Times were different then.

[flyguy06]

Yeah, thats old news. We already know ita going to be a requirement. I have mixed feelings about if I think thats a good idea or not. Obviously personally its gonna hold me back a while to get to that goal. But I understand their logic to a certain extent.

People seem to equate hours with experience. This goes back to my other thread where I was talking about the term "building time" hours dont neccessarily mean experience. For example who has more experience? The guy with 2000 hours flying in day VFR going from ATL to CHS flying staright andlevel or the guy with 500 hours that mainly flies at night in hard IMC down to minimums.

I mean the military takes a 23 year old with about 250 hours total time and puts him behind a C-130 or a F-15. And the military turns out the best pilots in the world inmy opinion.

So hours dont equal a better pilot neccessarily.

[Flying Pig]

I posted some time ago stating, "Do you have 1000 hrs or 1 hour 1000 times."

[Thrashed]

You have to start somewhere.  Hours is the best way to start screening pilots on paper.  The interview and simulator are the only good ways to hire pilots. The captain that crashed in Buffalo had a long history of training failures.  If he would have been fired for failing, the accident may not have happend.  It comes down to supply and demand.  When the demand for pilots is high then the supply of qualified pilots is low. As a checkairman (pre 9/11), I was doing IOE (in a RJ) with pilots that had 50 hours multi-time. Now I'm on the 777 and everyone has over 10,000 hours.  It's a whole different environment.

[heliodoc]

Yep

Going  from 50 hrs ME piston to an RJ...well even I at my whopping 15 hrs multi, WOULD be able to tell the difference. I would be able to tell anyone that I would need a little more than 50 hours to be anywhere near comfortable.  But I am imagining the mentorship levels at the regional levels are somewhat like finding a REAL good CFI in CAP.....few and far between. That were responsible enough to reaally get people trained and well beyond proficiency.  I would imagine there's QUITE a difference in those two operating environments, anyway.

But I am sure there are folks out there.  But you know some of today's pilots...... barely enough time in the cockpit, to even be that good at systems.  But I for one, will not doubt you , Thrash.

[Flying Pig]

Whats bad, is when you have relatively low time pilots who, themselves, may have lower time co-pilots, everyone is still trying to build THIER hours and not looking to share or pass on knowledge.  They see the guy sitting next to them as a possible threat.
Ive never worked in the airline or private aviation industry, but can tell you it can be  like that in my AO.

[heliodoc]

Rob

What little I have gathered in my whooping little time flying....

It is cut throat business with both low time pilots and even lower time biz admin majors running the airlines....eerrrr running them in to the ground........ Crandall's (AMR) Checci/ now Anderson fame NWA/ Delta those guys like Anderson...famous for being bigshots at McDonalds and coming back for the NWA / Delta debacle..

As these morons have said at Delta...."there will be no more layoffs"....RIIIIGHT

[Thrashed]

It is a business.  The "businessmen" are there to make money.  They do it anyway they can, until people start dying and the public cries for change.  They are balancing: "how cheap can we operate without killing a few people?"  800 hour pilots will pay $10,000 for their sim training and get paid $15/hour to get a chance to fly an "airliner".  I don't fault the pilots.  Who would turn down a job like that?  I'd rather fly an airliner for $15/hr than teach in a C152 for $10/hour.  There is no real easy answer.  Maybe changing the hour requirements will help.

[flyguy06]

You have to start somewhere.  Hours is the best way to start screening pilots on paper.  The interview and simulator are the only good ways to hire pilots. The captain that crashed in Buffalo had a long history of training failures.  If he would have been fired for failing, the accident may not have happend.  It comes down to supply and demand.  When the demand for pilots is high then the supply of qualified pilots is low. As a checkairman (pre 9/11), I was doing IOE (in a RJ) with pilots that had 50 hours multi-time. Now I'm on the 777 and everyone has over 10,000 hours.  It's a whole different environment.

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

[flyguy06]

Another question is people like to rag onthe low time FO. But the capt has at least 1500 hours and experience withthatequipment. Doesnt that count for something? I honestlly dont know.

[Mustang]

I watched that hearing, and it was a very important one as far as the regional carriers go.

I almost leaped out of my chair and cheered when ALPA President Prater made the observation that paying pilots just $1 per passenger per hour would make the compensation problem go away.  I have said for years that airline crews would make more money if their employers paid them nothing at all, and passengers simply dropped a $5 or a $10 in a tip jar on their way out the door, or tipped flight attendants a buck for getting them a drink or blanket.

Seems everyone but the regionals themselves can see how pilot compensation affects fatigue, which in turn affects safety.  In the last hiring boom, we saw that the regionals manipulate their hiring minimums in order to attract candidates.  Can't find any 1000-hr pilots willing to work for $18k/yr?  Lower your hiring minimums to 750 hrs...or 500...or 250...til you find enough people willing to accept your wages. By fixing the bar at an ATP certificate, carriers will be forced to improve their compensation and benefits if they cannot attract sufficient numbers of applicants--just as it should be.   

What I found most incredulous from that hearing was the rep from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University who was there to push an exemption to the ATP proposal for graduates of accredited university aviation programs. Their claim is that quality of training trumps quantity of experience, which can be true, but whether a university yields a better pilot than an FBO or non-university-affiliated flight school is debatable.   What isn't debatable in my book is the simple fact that you cannot teach good judgment--and that is the quality that a 1500 hour pilot should have a good deal more of than a 300-hour ERAU grad.  Like the saying goes, "Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment."

Thankfully, ALL of the airline pilots testifying in the hearing--which included US Airways pilot Jeffrey Skiles, who was the first officer aboard the flight that safely ditched in the Hudson River in January--were overwhelmingly against the university's proposal; all said that an ATP ticket should be the minimum entry requirement for any Part 121 airline cockpit.

If enacted as written, the ATP requirement will not go into effect until 3 years after the bill becomes law.

[Mustang]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

There are plenty of flying jobs to build experience that don't require carrying paying passengers. Flight instructing, flying cargo, aerial survey, banner-towing, pipeline patrol, etc--oh, and CAP, too.   As the pilots in the afore-mentioned hearing said, an airline cockpit is where you go AFTER you've proven yourself as a pilot. It's not the place to gain experience.

[CASH172]

What I found most incredulous from that hearing was the rep from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University who was there to push an exemption to the ATP proposal for graduates of accredited university aviation programs. Their claim is that quality of training trumps quantity of experience, which can be true, but whether a university yields a better pilot than an FBO or non-university-affiliated flight school is debatable.   What isn't debatable in my book is the simple fact that you cannot teach good judgment--and that is the quality that a 1500 hour pilot should have a good deal more of than a 300-hour ERAU grad.  Like the saying goes, "Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment."

He's trying to be able to continue to sell his university training program.  An ERAU grad at the very minimum could have as few as 90 hrs TT and with up to 50 hrs FTD time and be a Comm AMEL.  Of course anyone knows that is nowhere near ready to step into the right seat of a 121 operator. 

The issue that will plague most univeristies is that students will spent over 100K to get their degree and ratings and they'll be stuck just trying to build hours whatever way they can.  I guarantee some will do exactly what everyone here is afraid of, fly back and forth between the same two XC airports 1500 times. 

Everyone also says that one could build experience giving flight instruction a lot.  The 1500 time is no biggie, but the 500 XC can be a huge obstacle that most instructors never reach just simply teaching. 

[Mustang]

He's trying to be able to continue to sell his university training program.  An ERAU grad at the very minimum could have as few as 90 hrs TT and with up to 50 hrs FTD time and be a Comm AMEL.  Of course anyone knows that is nowhere near ready to step into the right seat of a 121 operator. 

The issue that will plague most univeristies is that students will spent over 100K to get their degree and ratings and they'll be stuck just trying to build hours whatever way they can.  I guarantee some will do exactly what everyone here is afraid of, fly back and forth between the same two XC airports 1500 times. 

You're quite right -- and good luck making the payments on that $100k-200k student loan on what most entry-level flying jobs pay!   

It's not just the university programs who fear this new development, it's also all the "zero-to-hero" flight schools like Airline Transport Professionals, FlightSafety Academy and Delta Connection Academy -- all of whom claim that their graduates have a leg up on the competition due to the quality of their training.

But ultimately, the real showdown will be when all the regionals and their mainline partners are forced to change their business models because there simply aren't enough available pilots with ATP tickets willing to work for $18k or even $30k/yr!  Somewhat coincidentally, this provision will kick in right as the Age 65 rule starts forcing retirements.  I'd count on the airlines all lining up to head back into bankruptcy court and/or crying to Congress that they just can't afford to pay regional pilots more than $10/hour.

Everyone also says that one could build experience giving flight instruction a lot.  The 1500 time is no biggie, but the 500 XC can be a huge obstacle that most instructors never reach just simply teaching.

That's actually a Good Thing, because it'll force CFIs to leave their comfort zone of flight instructing and go out and get some real flying experience -- flying charter, night freight, etc.

[DG]

Explain something to me.

ATP means Airline Transport Pilot.

Why does the FAA have an ATP rating if it is not enforced?

[Spike]

Every day the FAA or the FED takes the fun out of flying just a little bit more.

I don't fly for airlines or instruct, I just fly to have fun.  However, it is very apparent that the FAA and Govt are reacting too quick to isolated incidents. 

Requiring more time in training/ more testing will actually hurt the industry, not help it.

[Thrashed]

So hear are a couple of questions. SHould you fire someone for failing a checkride? And second how do you get the required experience if you cant get a  job flying?

Shouldn't you fire a guy who failed 5?

Get experience flying like I did: flight intruction, traffic watch, cargo, corporate, charter, then the airlines.  It's not easy, but you shouldn't go from flight school to the airlines.