NTSB: Pilot of Doomed Buffalo Plane 'Was Slow Learning' to Operate the Aircraft

[flynd94]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Unless we're talking a Cessna Caravan, why should my ticket cover 10% of the cost? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you when it comes to blaming the consumer. This is because the consumer is not making an informed decision. They aren't privy to the pilot's flight history, let alone his/her name. They don't get to look at the maintenance logs of the aircraft, or judge the standards of the airline and compare them to other companies. Sorry, but there is way too much information asymmetry there to expect the consumer to shoulder the blame for low quality.

I have to disagree with you.  In order for you to fly $100 round trip, the airline has to cut expenses somewhere.  They generally choose paying their employees.  The glamour of being an airline went away decades ago.  Most of us in the business do it because we simply love flying.  I have the best office in the world.

If you ever fly with me, come on up, I will gladly show you my certs (never failed any checkride), take a look at the maint logs, heck I will even escort you for your own walk around.

[wingnut55]

WE all seem to be overlooking the fact that the Airline choose not to train the Pilots on how to get out of the stall condition and the automatic Yoke shaker. In addition The FAA was ignoring the NTSB on stall training, since the FAA did not require it the Airline looked the other way.

The public is confused by all the hype, even I was shocked at the $16,000 salary for the first officer. What a bunch of crap. Why would any kid go into that field is beyond me.

[flyguy06]

Oh yeah, the pay definantly sucks in the beginning. $15K-23K for the high end regionals. It gets better when youget to the major airlines. And UPS and FedEx are even beter. But it takes years to get tothat level. Like was said earlier, it is the best office in the world, and many folks do it for the love of flying and some think it is stil a presitigious job.

I used t have sjs(shiny jet syndrome) but now If do become an airline pilot, fine, if not, I am ok with that too. I really enjoy instrcuting to tell you the truth.

[DG]

Stocking shelves at a grocery store?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/05/13/2009-05-13_rebecca_lynn_shaw_copilot_of_doomed_buffalo_flight_3407_was_paid_16000_a_year.html

[heliodoc]

How could anybody here in CAP be shocked about the wages in the regionals

CAPers seem to lead a pretty sheltered aviation life...

SJS shiny jet syndrome exists in CAP, also,

But it sure suprises me as AEO, that the knowledge is not relayed to the membership.

Folks, if you are NOT teaching reality to the cadets and trying to "sell" them about big money aviation, help it out by giving factual info EARLY!  Encourage the love for the job, "cuz it sure "ain't" the pay!!   Not at least till year 10 approx

It is NOT shocking about 15K a year in the regionals....been going on for at least 20 yrs

Ever hear of 22K a teacher or are you all under the assumption that teachers like airline pilots start out at 45K a year??

[BrandonKea]

Geez, I make more as a Communications Specialist dispatching Medical Choppers than these pilots. And I didn't need no schoolin' neither 

[DG]

When you have a pilot who got his license at 14, flew crop dusters at 15, served in the Air Force and flew F-4 Phantom fighters, all before becoming an airline captain, you end up with 155 people surviving an emergency landing in the Hudson.

When you have a pilot who passed through four careers before attending an aviation academy for eight months, who repeatedly flunked flight tests, whose first airline job paid so little he moonlighted at a supermarket, you end up with a plane crash that kills 50 people.

The gaping differences between USAir Flight 1549 Capt. Chesley Sullenberger and Colgan Air Flight 3407 Capt. Marvin Renslow point to a severe degradation in the quality of commercial aviation personnel.

In decades past, airlines had fleets of large jets and relied on spit-shined ex-military officers to fly them. Now, the big carriers farm out many flights to commuter or regional outfits that fly smaller planes and pay pilots as little as $19,000 a year.

As devalued as the work is, the jobs still draw eager young people, as well as career-changers like Renslow, who was 45 when Colgan hired him. In his case, the adage that you get what you pay for came tragically true.

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

The plane began to ice up as Renslow was making a landing approach. First officer Rebecca Shaw, 24, said on the flight recorder that she didn't yet feel competent to captain an iced-over plane. Renslow wasn't up to it either, though there was not enough ice to severely hamper its performance.

When the turboprop's speed fell, causing a stall, he made the wrong move with his yoke. The plane whirled out of control and into a house.

Testifying before Congress after the Miracle in the Hudson, Sullenberger said he didn't know of a single airline pilot who would recommend the profession to his or her children. That's terrifying. How many more Marvin Renslows are up there?


(New York Daily News)

[Auxpilot]

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.
(end quote)

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary. Do any of us know a pilot that has failed so many check rides? All I ever hear is how pilots can't get hired, how the hell does someone with all those failed check rides get an interview, and then a job when there are tons of kids out there with the right stuff??

It's a little scary today to look up into the cockpit and see the kid in the left seat and swear that you saw him at your daughters sweet sixteen party last week but the fact that the pay sucks keeps us middle age guys with years of experience from ever considering a career change.

Not to judge cause any of us could make a stupid mistake in a panic situation but saying that the airline did not train him on stall recovery in the plane that he was flying is a little weak. If the airspeed is low and the stall horn is ringing, every check ride from private to ATP would require that you know what to do. Rule 1 - lower the nose. The stories mention that she raised the flaps but I did not see data on a positive rate of climb or if there was only a partial decrease in flap extension which may be protocol for that aircraft.

Hopefully there is more to this story than we know, otherwise we should all be very afraid to fly on the regional airlines.

[flyguy06]

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.
(end quote)

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary. Do any of us know a pilot that has failed so many check rides? All I ever hear is how pilots can't get hired, how the hell does someone with all those failed check rides get an interview, and then a job when there are tons of kids out there with the right stuff??

It's a little scary today to look up into the cockpit and see the kid in the left seat and swear that you saw him at your daughters sweet sixteen party last week but the fact that the pay sucks keeps us middle age guys with years of experience from ever considering a career change.

Not to judge cause any of us could make a stupid mistake in a panic situation but saying that the airline did not train him on stall recovery in the plane that he was flying is a little weak. If the airspeed is low and the stall horn is ringing, every check ride from private to ATP would require that you know what to do. Rule 1 - lower the nose. The stories mention that she raised the flaps but I did not see data on a positive rate of climb or if there was only a partial decrease in flap extension which may be protocol for that aircraft.

Hopefully there is more to this story than we know, otherwise we should all be very afraid to fly on the regional airlines.

I hear what youare saying and i agree to a certain extent. It is amazing that a guy with this rerocd got an airlione job when there are so many other more qualified people. It really comes down to does the airline "like you" Can they stand to be inthe cockpit with you for hours on end.

But dont jusge him based on his sage. You say its amazing to you to look into the cockpit and see a guy that you swore was at your daughters birthday party.

well, dont forget you have 22 years olds flying F-16's and C-130's in the USAF. Granted the training they recieve is a lotmore fast paced and military pilots are a differnt kind of ilot than airline pilots. But age does not equal skill level.

experience and how quickly a person picks up materials deterines skill level.

[sardak]

He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary.

Here is the link to the documentation released by the NTSB so far, including the training records of the captain and FO, noting the unsatisfactory performance on the check rides.

Mike

[Trung Si Ma]

I'm just glad they haven't entered a CAPF5 into the record.

[flyguy06]

This is sad when a mans recrd is pasted all over the internet. I feel sorry for him and his family. Its bad enough he is deceased but now folks are posted his personal failures for the world to see. Sometimes technology is not a good thing.

[heliodoc]

Yes technology is great for airing out the laundry

We can all speculate here at CAPer Talk

Can't say I have flown much ice in my career and I would sure hate to have a bunch of amateurs other than the NTSB and FAA pour over my flying record

EVERYONE in the Biz starts somewhere.  These folks, obviously were in over their heads and now one pilots (captain) is being "evaluated" here at CAPerTalk

I will not partake any further in this thread, only to say....YOU folks were not there that night and I was not either.  Whether the person "failed" so many checkrides, blah blah

Go on and rake the pilot over the coals

The coal raking needs to be addressed at MANAGEMENT and the Stan Eval Dept for letting it go this far.  A Triple P ...ss. poor performing Stan and Chief check pilot

Oh yeah and keep on keepin on by blaming the FAA.  MAYBE the Colgan needs a PROFESSIONAL training dept.  MAYBE the company now needs to keep welllllll ahead of the FAA

[DG]

MAYBE the Colgan needs a PROFESSIONAL training dept.  MAYBE the company now needs to keep welllllll ahead of the FAA

Maybe the company won't exist......,

After the PI attorneys are done with them.

[flyguy06]

When you have a pilot who got his license at 14, flew crop dusters at 15, served in the Air Force and flew F-4 Phantom fighters, all before becoming an airline captain, you end up with 155 people surviving an emergency landing in the Hudson.

When you have a pilot who passed through four careers before attending an aviation academy for eight months, who repeatedly flunked flight tests, whose first airline job paid so little he moonlighted at a supermarket, you end up with a plane crash that kills 50 people.

The gaping differences between USAir Flight 1549 Capt. Chesley Sullenberger and Colgan Air Flight 3407 Capt. Marvin Renslow point to a severe degradation in the quality of commercial aviation personnel.

In decades past, airlines had fleets of large jets and relied on spit-shined ex-military officers to fly them. Now, the big carriers farm out many flights to commuter or regional outfits that fly smaller planes and pay pilots as little as $19,000 a year.

As devalued as the work is, the jobs still draw eager young people, as well as career-changers like Renslow, who was 45 when Colgan hired him. In his case, the adage that you get what you pay for came tragically true.

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

The plane began to ice up as Renslow was making a landing approach. First officer Rebecca Shaw, 24, said on the flight recorder that she didn't yet feel competent to captain an iced-over plane. Renslow wasn't up to it either, though there was not enough ice to severely hamper its performance.

When the turboprop's speed fell, causing a stall, he made the wrong move with his yoke. The plane whirled out of control and into a house.

Testifying before Congress after the Miracle in the Hudson, Sullenberger said he didn't know of a single airline pilot who would recommend the profession to his or her children. That's terrifying. How many more Marvin Renslows are up there?


(New York Daily News)

Airlines arent hiring military people like they used to. The reason is because more and more people are not going into the military to fly jets like they uesd to back in the 70's and 80's. Also people that are in the military are staying in due to the economy. So, the airlines have to start hiring from outside of the military.

ANd btw, I am one of those "career changers" Iam 40. Been in a nin aviation related job in themilitary for 20 years and now I want to get into the aviation industry. i had no choice. die to my vision I couldnt get a pilot slot. So you know, it happens.

[Rotorhead]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Or we could go further back and blame it on deregulation.

Because there was a time when airfares covered the costs of the flight and also made it possible to pay pilots an adult salary.

Now, however, we have NY to LA flights that actually net the company under $50 profit because consumers have been taught that low prices and fare wars are in their best interest.

[N Harmon]

In order for you to fly $100 round trip, the airline has to cut expenses somewhere.  They generally choose paying their employees.

I am not a pilot, and the closest I come to running an airline is FS Economy. However I do know a thing or two about economics. Airlines have high fixed costs and low marginal costs. In other words, it costs a LOT of money to get an airplane from point A to point B, but once that's been paid for it costs very little to add another passenger.

The dilemma with an airline is that if everybody paid $100 for a ticket, you would never cover the fixed costs. But if you charged more, then less people would buy tickets, and you still would not cover the fixed costs. So what you have to do is leverage the low marginal costs, and you do that by introducing price discrimination.

For example, while I may have paid $100 for my ticket, the guy sitting next to me probably paid more. Why is that? Well, the airline would rather sell me one of their leftover seats for $100 rather than let it go empty. And that really is the alternative because for a lot of people who buy those low fare tickets, the alternative is to simply not go at all.

That is why even if you did force higher prices with regulation, you simply would not solve the financial problems because you would not be able to fill the airplanes.

And even if you did manage to increase profits with regulated pricing. That won't magically increase the flight crew's salaries. Labor works on supply and demand too, and the way in which airlines are able to pay their pilots low wages is because there are so many pilots willing to fly for them.

It's a crummy situation. The only thing you can really do is evaluate if pilots overall are safe, and if they are not, raise the licensing standards.

If you ever fly with me, come on up, I will gladly show you my certs (never failed any checkride), take a look at the maint logs, heck I will even escort you for your own walk around.

I respect your willingness toward openness, but it sort of misses the point. Byt the time I board your plane, I've already purchased my ticket. Now, if we could get the airlines to publish all of that along with the flights...and I could choose to either save $20 and fly with a guy who failed two of his last three check rides, or fly with you. And if I still chose to save the $20: At that point I would say you could blame the customer.

Or we could go further back and blame it on deregulation.

Because there was a time when airfares covered the costs of the flight and also made it possible to pay pilots an adult salary.

Now, however, we have NY to LA flights that actually net the company under $50 profit because consumers have been taught that low prices and fare wars are in their best interest.

And how would higher fares be in their best interest?

[desertengineer1]

One thing that annoyed me was an early comment, made on CNN to the effect...

"We have a report that the pilot failed a simulator training session XXX years ago..."

Show me a pilot (civilian or military) who has never failed a sim ride sometime in their career.  Anyone who claims otherwise is someone I don't want to be a passenger of.

My prayers for everyone involved in this tragedy. 

[JC004]

...
blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it
...

note: I do not own this airline.

[sparks]

Airline economics are a joke. The adage is still true, to make a small fortune in aviation start with a large one. Owning an airline must be extremely attractive, many have lost everything following that seductive mistress. That includes legacy carriers and startups. I don't have that looooooong list of former airlines. 

High fixed costs with unpredictable fuel prices and low fares that won't pay the bills results in a lot of red ink.

Does all of this result in less experienced crews, maybe.