UAVS Flown by NON-PILOTS

[es_g0d]

This is an old topic, but my conscience can't resist.

In February of 2008, I was given 5 days to get to Creech AFB near Las Vegas, Nevada.  Its the home of the UAV, lying on the southern edge of the Nevada Test & Training Range.  I spent more than 3 months backfilling a position normally held by a UAV pilot so he could fly combat operations full time.

The Predator is the right mission for the war we're fighting -- something our former chief of staff did not recognize, as his top priority was more F-22s.  The Predator and to a greater extent the Reaper provide a capability that is simply unmatched by any other Air Force in the world.  We can keep a UAV on a particular station 24/7/365.  Its how we watch the bad guys.  When its time, we can then destroy that bad guy.  There are simply more bad guys than there are airplanes available to put on orbit.

And even if we had the airplanes, we don't have enough pilots and sensor operators to "fly" them.  So the Air Force is robbing them from other airframes.  I met one young F-15 driver who had only recently become combat ready, only to be forced into the "TAMI 21" program which does just that.  How horrible!  The only reasonable solution to adding enough pilots to keep up with the SecDef's demand for UAVs was to add a second (non-UPT) pipeline.    This will hopefully keep more real pilots in the cockpit where they belong. 

UAVs are not meant to dogfight, nor are they meant to drop large loads of heavy ordnance.  In fact, using any ordnance at all is strictly a USAF-only capability, and its why we require an officer (formerly, a rated officer) to control the airplane.  The Army and Marines have UAVs without weapons, but their pilots are enlisted.

Regardless, the conclusion I reached while spending time near the UAV program is that it is killing the soul of what it means to be an aviator in the United States Air Force.  It is a shame.  For those reasons, a non-UPT pipeline is an excellent idea.

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott

[Timbo]

Scott,  Officers serve at the needs of the service, not the other way around.  Many Officers in all branches wanted a different career field then the one they actually received.  If an Officer gets pushed into flying a UAV, tough.  They need to suck it up, and do their duty.  There are many that join the Air Force in hopes of flying, and they may never see an airplane in their entire career. 

I am sick of the whining from these young Officers.  If you don't like the way your country wants you to serve, resign your Commission and go drive a 777 for Delta. 

Tim   

[aveighter]

Scott,  Officers serve at the needs of the service, not the other way around.  Many Officers in all branches wanted a different career field then the one they actually received.  If an Officer gets pushed into flying a UAV, tough.  They need to suck it up, and do their duty.  There are many that join the Air Force in hopes of flying, and they may never see an airplane in their entire career. 

I am sick of the whining from these young Officers.  If you don't like the way your country wants you to serve, resign your Commission and go drive a 777 for Delta. 

Tim   

I wonder, my dear Timbo,  when did you finish SUPT?

[Flying Pig]

Scott,  Officers serve at the needs of the service, not the other way around.  Many Officers in all branches wanted a different career field then the one they actually received.  If an Officer gets pushed into flying a UAV, tough.  They need to suck it up, and do their duty.  There are many that join the Air Force in hopes of flying, and they may never see an airplane in their entire career. 

I am sick of the whining from these young Officers.  If you don't like the way your country wants you to serve, resign your Commission and go drive a 777 for Delta. 

Tim   

Thats one way to keep your retention rate up.

[Timbo]

I wonder, my dear Timbo,  when did you finish SUPT?

Never had the desire.  We all have wants, be we all never get everything we want!

I honestly do not feel anything for any Officer (read 1st Lt, 2nd Lt, maybe CAPT) that went to school to fly, but instead flies in a different role.  They need to grow up.  Before I got locked into my career field in the Army, I was an Armor Officer.  That was not even one of my choices.  I still reported to Fort Knox for my Armor Basic Course, and served without making my frustrations known (I wanted Chemical, honestly).  I got the Army to pay for med school and I got locked into being a medical Officer. 

All I hear these days are young Officers criticising the services for not allowing them to do what they want.  Well service in the Armed Forces does not mean a guarantee on what your career will be.  Really your only choice is what armed service you will serve in.  Even in the Enlistment Contracts, career fields can be requested, and almost guaranteed, but the needs of the service dictate what you will really be doing.

My advice for these young pilots, wanting to be the next top gun........welcome to 2009.  The world has changed during your 4 years at the academy, and we fight a totally different war.  Too bad you thought you could actually fly if you joined the Air Force.

I do believe you have better opportunities for flying in the Navy/ Marine Corps and Army.  There are more aircraft in the Army to begin with.  Granted they are not the jet type, but the Navy has those. 

When was the last aerial dog fight??  2002?  When was the last bombing run done by an AF SQD??  Afghanistan 2004! 

The AF flies people, bullets, food and fuel.  They also operate the joint battle management centers in the sky coordinating ground and air assets.  The air assets they coordinate are Army missiles/ artillery and UAV's. 

I will admit we need fighter jocks!  They are a line of defense against real threats like China and ??  However, for the time being we need those skilled pilots (some of them) to work on the UAV side.  Crappy? YES!     

 

[lordmonar]

Timbo....

They are not all young officers who are complaining.

Also....let me spin a tale for you.

Let's say the Army needed a bunch of Vetinarians.....and instead of training up a bunch of new ones from scratch they decided to transfer a bunch of doctors and PA over to the Vet careeer feild with the understanding that it was only going to be a 3 year tour and then you are back to brain surgury or what evey your original platform was.

Then...the Army changed their mind and now you are looking at doing vet work for the rest of your career.

In the mean time you are still competeing for promotion against the brain surgeons....who for what ever reasons look down on all vets.

That is the situation in the USAF.

Sure we all have to suck it up and solder on.....(in the USAF we say "shut up and color").  But there is a degree of a broken promise here.  The USAF is just now embrasing the UAV as a legetimate platform worthy of a full career field to man and manage it.

As a young officer you got stuck in Armor....but you had a reasonable expectation that you could make 4 star general in that career field.  UAV pilots do not have that same expectation.  It is getting better....but in the early days.... UAVs were manned by a lot of dead-enders, wash-outs and other people who's career prospects were not too good in their original platform.  Those guys who (and most UAV pilots fit this discription) who were not wash-outs or dead-enders were getting (or at least felt they were) getting a taint of "guilt by association" by being lumped in with the few "bad" apples.

++++++Don't start flameing me yet++++++

I have nothing but respect for all UAV pilots (well as far as any maintence guy can have for any flyer type  ).  There are a lot of great pilots and leaders in the UAV career field, there are a lot of just average pilots/leaders...but because UAV became the dumping ground for all the "good" platforms to get rid of their marginals.....there is an abundance of dead-enders.   And it is that problem that has tainted the UAV pilots as far as promotions go.

Having said that.....Es-god....UAVs are the wave of the future and if the aviation community can't see that and adapt to it....maybe it is time to have high turn over rate.  Sure it is stupid to spend a lot of training on f-15 training just to switch him to UAV's but it is because the USAF was/is so reluctant to embrase UAVs that we shot ourselves in our collective feet.

The USAF never had a dedicated UAV career field.  All pilots/Navigators were either loaners from other platfroms (to go back after 3 years) or had their platforms retired (some C-130 models and helos).    The USAF company line was they would not accept any UPT pipe-line students.  They had to be experinced/mission qualified pilots first.

Like you said there are not enough pilots to go around.  So they are scrambleing to fill the gaps.  You can only steal so many rated officers from other platforms before you start to hurt those career fields so now we got to go farther afield.

First step......non rated officers......next step.......enlisted pilots??  What would that do with to the aviation community?

[Timbo]

^ OK.  But I still think it is the younger Officers doing all the whining. 

"Air Force trained me to be a fighter jock, now I have to go fly a UAV, I should have never joined".  We need to get the UAV platform rolling, which means some jocks need to make a sacrifice for the greater good of the service.  Tough beans!! 

If the Army told me......"you will now be a vet", I would be upset, but would salute and be the best vet I could be. 

Anyone doing anything in the military should be grateful for the chance to serve their country.  There are many more who would join just to push a broom if they were allowed to.   

[lordmonar]

^ OK.  But I still think it is the younger Officers doing all the whining. 

"Air Force trained me to be a fighter jock, now I have to go fly a UAV, I should have never joined".  We need to get the UAV platform rolling, which means some jocks need to make a sacrifice for the greater good of the service.  Tough beans!! 

If the Army told me......"you will now be a vet", I would be upset, but would salute and be the best vet I could be. 

Anyone doing anything in the military should be grateful for the chance to serve their country.  There are many more who would join just to push a broom if they were allowed to.   

Timbo.....right now this very instant I am sitting 40 feet from some of those officers who are whinning....and they come in all ranks.

And they do salute and be the best UAV pilots they can be.....but some of them did get the big screw and they do have the right to say "stop it....I'm not happy about it".

[PHall]

Timbo, if you haven't figured it out yet, lordmonar works in the AF UAV community and is very current on what goes on there.

[aveighter]

Don't confound young Timbo with anything factual.  He is on a roll.

It's always amusing to see such a fellow get all exercised, expounding passionately and at great length on matters with which he has no actual knowledge.

Patrick, I have a Shut up and Color patch from class 09-11, SUPT Columbus AFB just last month. The drop went well (no UAVs).  Number one son of aveighter is off to Ft. Rucker to fly helicopters as a precursor to the CV-22 (he hopes).

[Timbo]

Timbo, if you haven't figured it out yet, lordmonar works in the AF UAV community and is very current on what goes on there.

No.....not until his last post did I gather he may be working with them.  So thanks for schooling me, but save your remarks for someone else. 

Don't confound young Timbo with anything factual.  He is on a roll.

It's always amusing to see such a fellow get all exercised, expounding passionately and at great length on matters with which he has no actual knowledge.

Patrick, I have a Shut up and Color patch from class 09-11, SUPT Columbus AFB just last month. The drop went well (no UAVs).  Number one son of aveighter is off to Ft. Rucker to fly helicopters as a precursor to the CV-22 (he hopes).

Nice.  Very professional.  Don't assume that I have no knowledge on the subject.  You don't know me.  I will chalk up your post as an attempt to be cute and amusing.  Deep down though......I now know what type of person you are, and I did not even have to meet you face to face.   

[hatentx]

All I can say is needs of the service.  It is in your contract and you are aware of it...or you shouldnt have signed.... so dont cry about it suck it up and drive on.  I had a bunch of buddies get moved from one MOS to another because of lack of numbers.  I get that it may hurt your Career but that should give you more reason to push harder.  If your upset because you will never be a 4 star because of your field chosen for you then I am sorry and it sucks for you but their are bigger things at stake here in the military than your career.  I am in a MOS that will most often than not get picked up for anything over E-8.  Is that discouraging kind of but then again it means that I have to put that much more effort into what I am doing and be better than all the other guys that are in the right MOS.  Sorry but again needs of the service

[Timbo]

All I can say is needs of the service.  It is in your contract and you are aware of it...or you shouldn't have signed.... so dint cry about it suck it up and drive on. 

We all don't get to do what we wanted.  I feel bad for those that get shafted, but as hatentx said "needs of the service".  Now more than ever we need Officers that are professional enough not to come out in forums and in articles in Army/Navy/MC/AF Times and whine. 

There are many more Enlisted individuals that signed up to push papers and cook, be administrative types and adjutants that find themselves patrolling in Iraq instead.  There are also other Officers in the Marine Corps and Army that were trained to do things like civil affairs, public affairs even chemical and engineering duties that also find themselves and their units pounding the sand.  That I find more unfair than the fighter jocks being moved from one airframe to another. 

How about spending 10 years training to be an Engineer and when the war starts that you trained for, you find yourself leading an engineer company doing house to house clearing or running convoy operations.  Is that fair.  Nothing about serving in the military is fair.  It was never meant to be.  We go and do what we are told to go and do.  The difference between my examples and the UAV situation, is those Officers are still flying (just in a different way).  The engineers, civil affairs and chemical corps Soldiers are not even doing anything remotely similar to what they trained for.   

[Flying Pig]

This is why we dont have life long military commitments.  When your time is over, you can leave.

[Timbo]

This is why we dont have life long military commitments.  When your time is over, you can leave.

Correct, on the surface.  Try telling that to the guy who had been out of the Service for three years and got the "return to AD orders".  totally different subject though. 

[hatentx]

That falls under the Stop loss part of your contract.  Atleast I know that is how it is worded in the enlisted side of things. You will serve at most 8 years with your IRR time as well.  So still not a career.  On joining the military you understand you have no clue what you are going to be doing, unless your contract states you are going to be a 15Y10 or what ever your MOS may be.  On the officer side it is even more of a stretch because you are needs of the military point blank.  You want your first choice then score high enough that is it right there.  While again I see that it sucks to be pulled from a Field in which you enjoy working and put into one that you dont enjoy I must again say drink water and drive on.  Hell I choice my MOS and had it in my contract.  That did stop them from placing me in the Orderly Room for a while did it?  It didnt stop them from making me do other jobs that is outside of my MOS.  It isnt going to stop them from moving me out of my MOS and Airframe and placing me as a squad leader for a group of guys on two different Airframes with two different MOSs either.  I am sorry to say needs of the Army.  Does any of that going to look good for me later on down the line???  I dont know but I am sure that having time in combat in a leadership position in my MOS would do better than being in one completly removed from anything that I am close to being school trained on.  If Officers wish to whine about that let them not forget the enlisted guys who get it done to them just as often and while unhappy about it shut up and get the job done. 

[Jimbo]

This is why we dont have life long military commitments.  When your time is over, you can leave.

Well a pilot has a half-life (career) long commitment almost, usually when their commitment is up, they can leave around the 10 years of service mark.. stupid to get out with all of the flight pay, aviation career incentive pay, and 10 more years to get a retirement check...

[Jimbo]

And I too work in the AF UAV community, on the analyst side of the house...UAVs are doing the persistent ISR stare required (example: http://integrator.hanscom.af.mil/2006/July/07202006/07202006-15.htm )  It is typically the UAV that cues the fighter/bomber. 

For the second topic of this discussion, I would be pretty pissed if I busted my ass in UPT, and if I did not want to go UAVs and did get them.  Why?  Because the UAV pilots in my opinion are way overtrained.  I agree totally with the pilot program they are starting...especially when the Army is using mainly NCOs.  The Global Hawk pilots just double click a map basically of where they want it to go... Predator is a bit more hands on.  Developing a pilot training program for UAVs is much overdue, in an effort to use resources wisely.  If this test program works, I am sure we will see a UAV career field, and the amount of fighter pilot slots will probably decline a bit for active duty (Since F-22 squadrons are less in size than your typical F-15/F-16 squadron, and as more older fighters are transitioned to the ANG and Reserves).  Most of the cargo pilots I have talked to enjoy the UAVs.  It is the type A personality folks who have already been flying fighters for a while that are a bit disgruntled.. but they still put their 110% into their current roll.

Cheers

[aveighter]

Well said Lt.  The service commitment is ten years after undergraduate pilot training is completed.

You are also correct in that after the extraordinary effort and dedication required to first make it to pilot training and then be successful in earning the silver wings, the thought of assignment to a UAV is to horrible to contemplate for most.  This is completely beside the fact that the cost of training an Air Force aviator is in the vicinity of two million dollars now.  Does this reflect negatively on UAVs?  No.  It merely reflects the idea that pilot candidates go to the service to be in the aircraft and flying.  There is a better way and the Air Force recognizes this fact as shown by the development of a specialized UAV track for operators of that technology.

Are UAVs important?  Extremely.  Should UAV operators come from the traditional, so called, rated pilot tracks?  No.  The path the Air Force is now on is the correct one.

[nesagsar]

I want to be a valuable member of the Air Force but I dont belive that I can pass a flight physical, mostly due to eyesight restrictions. If I was given a chance to fly a UAV I would take it gladly. On the other hand I know that flying the UAV is not going to get me anywhere in my career. That is why I'm asking for emergency management and intelligence, hopefully I will get one of those.