New Summer Flight Uniform

[Eclipse]

Most professional aircrews wear flightsuits no matter the weather, you won't see USAF or Lifeflight guys in shorts.

Does that statement include Airline Pilots and CFIs?  I see a lot of white shirts and slacks around the local airfields.

Point taken, though I meant SAR/military/etc, crews, aircrews we would equivocate with CAP duty.

[lordmonar]

Well this is all back to the the actuaries.

No one is disputing that in a fire...long pants, shirts, gloves, face mask....etc, etc, et al...can save you from a nasty burn.

Okay....point taken.

BUT.

In a GA aircraft....what is the actual chance of this type of injury?

From a safety stand point....we have to weight the cost and negitive effects against the potential safety gain.

If we increase the comfort of our air crew.....what are the benifits vice the possible loss....remember that right now the minimum uniform you have to wear right now is a polo shirt, gray pants, and shoes.

[Short Field]

Unless you are at NESA attending the Mission Aircrew School.  CAP Approved Flight Uniform:  Black NESA T-Shirt, Khaki shorts, and white tennis shoes.   

I get to test it out next week.   :clap:

[Eclipse]

Well this is all back to the the actuaries.

No one is disputing that in a fire...long pants, shirts, gloves, face mask....etc, etc, et al...can save you from a nasty burn.

Okay....point taken.

BUT.

In a GA aircraft....what is the actual chance of this type of injury?

From a safety stand point....we have to weight the cost and negative effects against the potential safety gain.

If we increase the comfort of our air crew.....what are the benefits vice the possible loss....remember that right now the minimum uniform you have to wear right now is a polo shirt, gray pants, and shoes.

Statistically, it approaches zero, but other than a reduction of that high-pitched whining noise in front of the firewall, I don't see much point.

[DG]

Most professional aircrews wear flightsuits no matter the weather, you won't see USAF or Lifeflight guys in shorts.

And you won't see The Real AF flying without air conditioning.  Even in trainers.  Do you know how hot and hostile would be the inside of a T-34C without air?  I'd be glad to wear a nomex flight suit in oppressive OAT with air cond. 

[C-150]

I can understand the desire for comfort, but here we go with another flying club looking uniform.

[jb512]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training.  If all goes well, I'll be sweating it out in a flight suit in quite a few different environments and I'll be [darn]ed proud to do it.

Hydrate, exercise, and eat well and you shouldn't have a problem.  Aside from the obvious, there are a lot of cops in this forum who will attest to standing on 100+ degree asphalt in black uniforms for long periods of time with vests, 20 lbs. worth of gear, etc., and we know how to deal with it.  There are thousands of military people in a freakin desert that hump it with even more than that every single day.

I'm losing interest.

[flyerthom]

Well this is all back to the the actuaries.

No one is disputing that in a fire...long pants, shirts, gloves, face mask....etc, etc, et al...can save you from a nasty burn.

Okay....point taken.

BUT.

In a GA aircraft....what is the actual chance of this type of injury?

From a safety stand point....we have to weight the cost and negitive effects against the potential safety gain.

If we increase the comfort of our air crew.....what are the benifits vice the possible loss....remember that right now the minimum uniform you have to wear right now is a polo shirt, gray pants, and shoes.

Looking at the NTSB crash reports with the simple search parameter fire from 1/6/2008 to 7/19/2008 there are 125 aircraft completely or partially destroyed by fire. In those crashes there are a total of 207 fatalities. Now this doesn't mean all 207 were killed by burns but how many of them were? The autopsy reports are not available.

When a search for burns is done it comes back to two seriously injured and two definite fatalities (one in the house that burned when struck by the aircraft) from 1/1/2008 to 7/26/2008. 

Neither of these is statistically insignificant.  Aircraft burn just as often if not more so than autos.

It's seems that the three things we pay for and desire to get cheated on are, education, health care, and safety.

[lordmonar]

Okay Tom.....now do the search for head injury....and why don't we mandate flight helmets?

[IceNine]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training.  If all goes well, I'll be sweating it out in a flight suit in quite a few different environments and I'll be [darn]ed proud to do it.

Hydrate, exercise, and eat well and you shouldn't have a problem.  Aside from the obvious, there are a lot of cops in this forum who will attest to standing on 100+ degree asphalt in black uniforms for long periods of time with vests, 20 lbs. worth of gear, etc., and we know how to deal with it.  There are thousands of military people in a freakin desert that hump it with even more than that every single day.

I'm losing interest.

And the point is?  It was already mentioned that military A/C's have AC.. So you can sweat it out if you want, but I'd just flip the AC switch on if I were you.

As for the folks in the desert.  I thank them for their service, and also realize that they went through a tough, time tested training process to get to the point where they can stand to do those things.


At what point are the benefits going to outweigh the cost? It does happen that Airplanes crash but at what point do we balance cost/benefit?  So we wear a nomex flight suit that may protect you from fire, but if you can't get out will you survive?  How many times are their crashes that do not involve other most likely debilitating injuries?

The best chance a down pilot has it to pray that the A/C doesn't catch fire, they can reach their knife to cut themselves out of the straps, and have enough supplies to ride out the time it takes to conduct the search.

If the plane is going to burn, it will most likely explode at some point AVGas being the beast that it is.

[flyerthom]

Okay Tom.....now do the search for head injury....and why don't we mandate flight helmets?

We  wear them at work.  Most likely the reason is cost. My Gentex sph 5 is well over $800.00. If I added the NVG mount and ANR  to it it would be more than my monthly mortgage payment. The Peltor one advertised in this months AOPA Pilot is over $750. At that cost level CAP would be expected to provide them and we know that isn't going to happen.

[jb512]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training.  If all goes well, I'll be sweating it out in a flight suit in quite a few different environments and I'll be [darn]ed proud to do it.

Hydrate, exercise, and eat well and you shouldn't have a problem.  Aside from the obvious, there are a lot of cops in this forum who will attest to standing on 100+ degree asphalt in black uniforms for long periods of time with vests, 20 lbs. worth of gear, etc., and we know how to deal with it.  There are thousands of military people in a freakin desert that hump it with even more than that every single day.

I'm losing interest.

And the point is?  It was already mentioned that military A/C's have AC.. So you can sweat it out if you want, but I'd just flip the AC switch on if I were you.

As for the folks in the desert.  I thank them for their service, and also realize that they went through a tough, time tested training process to get to the point where they can stand to do those things.


At what point are the benefits going to outweigh the cost? It does happen that Airplanes crash but at what point do we balance cost/benefit?  So we wear a nomex flight suit that may protect you from fire, but if you can't get out will you survive?  How many times are their crashes that do not involve other most likely debilitating injuries?

The best chance a down pilot has it to pray that the A/C doesn't catch fire, they can reach their knife to cut themselves out of the straps, and have enough supplies to ride out the time it takes to conduct the search.

If the plane is going to burn, it will most likely explode at some point AVGas being the beast that it is.

No, no... you're good.  I'm giving you the go-ahead even.  The burn factor isn't even an issue in my book.

[Mustang]

And you won't see The Real AF flying without air conditioning.  Even in trainers.  Do you know how hot and hostile would be the inside of a T-34C without air?  I'd be glad to wear a nomex flight suit in oppressive OAT with air cond. 

A) The Real AF doesn't fly T-34Cs.

B) You think an HH-60 has air conditioning?

CAP needs to decide if it wants to be a flying club or the USAF Auxiliary, then uniform itself accordingly.  Until that happens, the organization just comes off as schizophrenic and unprofessional.

[jb512]

And you won't see The Real AF flying without air conditioning.  Even in trainers.  Do you know how hot and hostile would be the inside of a T-34C without air?  I'd be glad to wear a nomex flight suit in oppressive OAT with air cond. 

A) The Real AF doesn't fly T-34Cs.

B) You think an HH-60 has air conditioning?

CAP needs to decide if it wants to be a flying club or the USAF Auxiliary, then uniform itself accordingly.  Until that happens, the organization just comes off as schizophrenic and unprofessional.

Exactly.  Gain some military bearing at some point and the organization should be ok.  Otherwise, yes, it's a flying club.

Sidenote:  Cadet activities are still awesome and a great benefit.

[Short Field]

Exactly.  Gain some military bearing at some point and the organization should be ok.  Otherwise, yes, it's a flying club.
Sidenote:  Cadet activities are still awesome and a great benefit.

The worse examples of the "flying club" are the ones who always wear their flight suits, reguardless of the function,  and you normally only see them if attendance is required in order for them to fly.  Most around here are not even Mission Pilots, just CAP Pilots with a current Fm 5 who like the reduced rates for flying corporate aircraft.   But they sure look good.....  That is who your "flying club" people are, not the ones that need to "gain some military bearing".

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training. 

Why wait until you are done with your AF training - or are you just using CAP to pad your resume?

[jb512]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training. 

Why wait until you are done with your AF training - or are you just using CAP to pad your resume?

Venting mainly, but I certainly did use my CAP experience from when I was a cadet.

My decision to finally join the RM was based on the past few years of coming back as a SM along with some other factors.  I don't want to paint CAP in a negative light because the cadet program kicks ass for those who use it later in life.  I just have some issues with the other programs and I've made my decisions based on that.  It's not negative, I just think some things need improvement.

[Trung Si Ma]

You guys do what you want.  That just about seals the deal for me not staying in CAP when I'm done with my AF training. 

Why wait until you are done with your AF training - or are you just using CAP to pad your resume?

Venting mainly, but I certainly did use my CAP experience from when I was a cadet.

My decision to finally join the RM was based on the past few years of coming back as a SM along with some other factors.  I don't want to paint CAP in a negative light because the cadet program kicks ass for those who use it later in life.  I just have some issues with the other programs and I've made my decisions based on that.  It's not negative, I just think some things need improvement.

So you've decided to improve CAP by leaving?

[DG]

A) The Real AF doesn't fly T-34Cs.

My apologies.

I was thinking of all the T-34C's I saw while on DR in Florida for hurricanes.

They were NAVY.  Those guys prefer air cond. in their a/c when it is available.  And given the option, if air cond. were not available, how many of those same pilots would say I prefer NOT to wear a cooler uniform, because I prefer to look professional in a full nomex flight suit, even if it is so very hot.

[DG]

I'd vote for that!!!  Just soaked a flight suit yesterday working on touch and go's.   That is also similiar to what the aircrews wear at NESA.

Wonder how long the "NOMEX flight suit" purists will keep wearing flight suites if they can wear shorts!

Great thought, Short Field!

A big part of our mission training and real mission execution involves how to complete the mission most effectively, including using effective methods and using effective crew members.

I hope this uniform authorization goes through, so that we can watch for who wears shorts for temperature relief, and who wears a full nomex flight suit, to look "professional."  Then we should be fair minded, without prejudging, and evaluate whether and how it makes a difference.

See you next week at NESA MAS.

[Eclipse]

When a search for burns is done it comes back to two seriously injured and two definite fatalities (one in the house that burned when struck by the aircraft) from 1/1/2008 to 7/26/2008. 

Neither of these is statistically insignificant.  Aircraft burn just as often if not more so than autos.

Sorry , then you don't understand the term "statistically insignificant", because if in the history of CAP, the only indication
you can find is two, and only one being aircrew, that is statistically >zero<, and the insurance industry and others interested in this sort of this wouldn't even recognize the event.

Obviously they are significant events in the lives of those killed, their friends, family, and CAP as a community, but they have no statistical significance.