If there is any kind of magnetic media in the recorder there is always a chance of recovering previous tracks because read / write heads don't always record in the exact same spot.  I know this is true of computer hard drives and might apply in this instance.  It's not easy, but the FAA can probably afford the high-speed low-drag facility that can do it.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 25, 2009, 01:13:05 AM
If there is any kind of magnetic media in the recorder there is always a chance of recovering previous tracks because read / write heads don't always record in the exact same spot.  I know this is true of computer hard drives and might apply in this instance.  It's not easy, but the FAA can probably afford the high-speed low-drag facility that can do it.

Most of the CVR's use a continuous loop magnetic tape. They record over the old data.

It's one thing to not answer the aviation radio. It's another thing to not answer the aviation radio, the corporate radio, or the data terminal.

Something seems fishy here, that's for sure.

It's quite common to miss a call or never get a hand off from ATC.  To fly an hour without talking to someone while domestic is impossible if you are on the right frequency.  Most airline pilots monitor 121.5 in the #2 for ELT's and to hear ATC call you if there is a problem getting a hold of you on the frequency you're supposed to be on.  If all else fails, you put out those crisp new charts in your flight bag and look for a frequency box and start calling them one by one.  Eventually you will find the right controller.  This is not a rare occurance, it happens all the time.  Continental Express did it after 9/11 going into Newark.  They never descended and ended up over NJ at cruise altitude with F16's on their tail.  They were not asleep. 

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM

Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.

Round #1

From NTSB interviews with crew

************************************************** **********
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************** **********

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

October 26, 2009
************************************************** **********

NTSB ISSUES UPDATE ON ITS INVESTIGATION OF FLIGHT 188 THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT


************************************************** **********
In its continuing investigation of an Airbus A320 that overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold- Chamberlain Airport (MSP), the National Transportation Safety Board has developed the following factual information: On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 144 passengers, 2 pilots and 3 flight attendants.

Both pilots were interviewed separately by NTSB investigators yesterday in Minnesota. The following is an overview of the interviews:

* The first officer and the captain were interviewed for over 5 hours combined.
* The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000 hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot in command.
* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997. His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has about 5,000 hours on the A-320.
* Both pilots said they had never had an accident, incident or violation.
* Neither pilot reported any ongoing medical conditions.
* Both pilots stated that they were not fatigued. They were both commuters, but they had a 19-hour layover in San Diego just prior to the incident flight. Both said they did not fall asleep or doze during the flight.
* Both said there was no heated argument.
* Both stated there was a distraction in the cockpit. The pilots said there was a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls from ATC even though both stated they heard
conversation on the radio. Also, neither pilot noticed messages that were sent by company dispatchers. They were discussing the new monthly crew flight scheduling system that was now in place as a result of the
merger. The discussion began at cruise altitude.
* Both said they lost track of time.
* Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure. The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure was providing instruction to the captain. The use of personal computers on the flight deck is prohibited by company policy.
* Neither pilot was aware of the airplane's position until a flight attendant called about 5 minutes before they were scheduled to land and asked what was their estimated time of arrival (ETA). The captain said, at
that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed MSP. They made contact with ATC and were given vectors back to MSP.
* At cruise altitude - the pilots stated they were using cockpit speakers to listen to radio communications, not their headsets.
* When asked by ATC what the problem was, they replied "just cockpit distraction" and "dealing with company issues".
* Both pilots said there are no procedures for the flight attendants to check on the pilots during flight.

The Safety Board is interviewing the flight attendants and other company personnel today. Air traffic control communications have been obtained and are being analyzed. Preliminary data from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed the following:

* The CVR recording was 1/2 hour in length.
* The cockpit area microphone channel was not working during this recording. However, the crew's headset microphones recorded their conversations.
* The CVR recording began during final approach, and continued while the aircraft was at the gate.
* During the hours immediately following the incident flight, routine aircraft maintenance provided power to the CVR for a few minutes on several occasions, likely recording over several minutes of the flight.

The FDR captured the entire flight which contained several hundred aircraft parameters including the portion of flight where there was no radio communication from the flight crew. Investigators are examining the recorded parameters to see if any information regarding crew activity during the portion of flight where radio contact was lost can be
obtained.

Quote from: emertins on October 27, 2009, 02:19:56 AM

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM

Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.

They may not lose their ATP, at least not permanently, but Delta has said that violations of the company "laptop computers in the cockpit" rule would result in termination.

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 02:40:56 AM

Quote from: emertins on October 27, 2009, 02:19:56 AM

Quote from: PHall on October 27, 2009, 12:27:05 AM

Quote from: a2capt on October 26, 2009, 11:03:04 PM

Quote from: the NTSB"The pilots of the jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time, federal safety officials said."

Okay.

that does not explain the comlink(s) and the data link. You can turn down the volume, but you can't not see the screen on the text box.

WTH?!?

I certainly hope their jobs are toast. I'm sorry, but thats just ridiculous.

Are they CAPTalk'ers, looking up uniform regs, to cite, or something? Good lord.

According to NPR, they both testified to the NTSB that they had their headsets off and were working their next months route bids on their laptops.

at that point I would've said bye bye to their atp ticket.. Because that is just negligent.

They may not lose their ATP, at least not permanently, but Delta has said that violations of the company "laptop computers in the cockpit" rule would result in termination.

question is even if they get it back.. would you hire them?

I would be very skeptical of giving them a captain position ever again.

I would say these guys just wrote themselves an early out without benefits.

Delta has been chucking people left and right. Aside what their brotherhood will give them, if they're not too upset over the black eye they just got.

I'd say they'll be doing charter or crop dusting, and they won't have to worry about that mean old scheduling system.

We'll see. Yes, there will probably be procedure changes because of this.

Early retirement, ground school/simulator instructor or a desk job until retirement might be the result.

Quote from: sparks on October 27, 2009, 04:39:20 PM
ground school/simulator instructor or a desk job until retirement might be the result.

At least they can use their laptops while doing their jobs then. 

Top Ten Reasons to overfly Destination;

10. Bunch of fat guys seated on the right side of the plane made us vector east.
9. We get paid by the hour.
8. Mapquest always takes you the long way, am I right, people?
7. Tired of that show-off Sullenberger getting all the attention.
6. You try steering one of those airplanes after eight or nine cocktails.
5. Wanted to catch the end of the in-flight movie.
4. Activating autopilot and making occasional P.A. announcements is exhausting.
3. According to our map, we only missed our target by half an inch.
2. For a change, we decided to send luggage to the right city and lose the passengers.
And the Number One reason...

1. Thought we saw balloon boy

Quote from: The FAAThe FAA has revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot a runway by 150 miles during a 78-minute radio silence.

I'd say that their jobs as ATPs are .. done.

News article:

Quote
U.S. government regulators have revoked the licenses of the two airline pilots who flew an Airbus passenger jet past their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles last week.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday the Northwest Airlines pilots had violated numerous regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The pilots — first officer Richard Cole and captain Timothy Cheney — told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on their laptop computers.  continued in link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33497462/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001

Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 27, 2009, 10:24:09 PM
News article:

Quote
U.S. government regulators have revoked the licenses of the two airline pilots who flew an Airbus passenger jet past their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles last week.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday the Northwest Airlines pilots had violated numerous regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

The pilots — first officer Richard Cole and captain Timothy Cheney — told investigators they lost track of time and place while working on their laptop computers.  continued in link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33497462/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001

heh, I think the FAA will get their asses on the frying pan. I wouldn't doubt the pilot's union and lawyers will fight the quick revocation without getting the final investigative findings. Especially if they are being used as examples.

either way, their careers are over.

Quote from: emertins on October 28, 2009, 02:28:42 AMeither way, their careers are over.

Indeed they are.

A news article.

The FAA letter.

Ok, so he can't start his crop dusting career for at least a year.

Quote from: McLarty on November 04, 2009, 05:41:25 AM
Ok, so he can't start his crop dusting career for at least a year.

It says he can apply for a pilot certificate in a year, they don't have to issue him one if the Administrator still feels he's a risk.