Quote from: FL Wing KingEffective immediately, our FAA call sign has been changed. "CAP FLIGHT XXX" is now changed to "CAP XXX". For flight plan filing, CPF XXX is now CAP XXX.
Does anyone know why the FAA decided to suddenly change our call sign? If someone else is using CAP Flight it might lead to a little confusion.
The International Civil Aviation Organization was also involved.
I think we talked about this possibility a few months ago. Don't recall the details.
Isn't "flight" a little obvious? What else could it be? A car? "CAP" is better. Less to say and it's clear and concise.
"CAP" was the call for Capital Airlines which ceased operations in the early '60's. Apparently there was an issue with someone who still owned the IP of the airline and fought repeated attempts by the FAA over the years to reassign it to CAP, thus "CAP-flight".
The result was that many times "CPF" flights would be showing as "CAP" flights due to miscommunication when the flight plans, etc., were filed.
Apparently this has been worked out, which is a good thing for clarity, but is going to be the reverse problem for a while as our pilots shake out the old and remember the "new".
We'll also need about 550 new dash plates...
the new dash plates shouldn't be a problem: CAP stands in some quarters for Come and Pay.
I read the letter from the FAA to CAP NTC which states that the call sign change was requested by CAP. There are still some items that are being looked into that have been questioned by CAP members in the field. I am sure more to follow shortly.
Quote from: sdcapmx on October 12, 2009, 11:01:32 PM
I read the letter from the FAA to CAP NTC which states that the call sign change was requested by CAP.
Yes, CAP has been trying to get those letters for years.
Quote from: sdcapmx on October 12, 2009, 11:01:32 PM
There are still some items that are being looked into that have been questioned by CAP members in the field.
Such as? Nothing is more fun than random veiled comments which insinuate some dark action with no actual substance... ::)
I suppose CAP is somewhat better than CAPF. I would have put it pretty low on my priority list of things to change though.
Probably better that we have CAP than someone else. Will take a while to get used to.
CAP also means .. "Changes Are Painful" ..
I have a laser cutter, I can make dash panels. ;-)
Something bugged me last night when I saw the letter, but couldn't narrow it down. Finally hit me this morning.
I was in VT-10 at NAS Pensacola in 1998. The squadron uses callsign "KATT" followed by the flight number, just like CAP (only they used three digits).
If the callsign hasn't changed, SER is going to have an interesting time with center and clearance delivery.
"Did you say Cap or Cat?"
:)
"CAP" means Combat Air Patrol in the USAF...
Quote from: CAPPAO on October 13, 2009, 12:51:11 AM
"CAP" means Combat Air Patrol in the USAF...
Yes, when its pronounced "KAP".
Which begs the question, is the call sign "CAP", or "SEE-AY-P"?
According to the email I got it is pronounced as in
"put on your cap"
Wait, did I miss something? Our call signs are changing? To what? Why?
See here for more detail: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9097.msg163794#msg163794
duh... sorry been out on the road for 3 days, tired. I missed it at the top. Thanks :)
Quote from: CAPPAO on October 13, 2009, 12:51:11 AM
"CAP" means Combat Air Patrol in the USAF...
And it's never, ever used as a call sign. Opsec you know...
Quote from: Eclipse on October 13, 2009, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: CAPPAO on October 13, 2009, 12:51:11 AM
"CAP" means Combat Air Patrol in the USAF...
Yes, when its pronounced "KAP".
Which begs the question, is the call sign "CAP", or "SEE-AY-P"?
Probably the former, as the latter would come out 'charlie alpha papa', which is a little cumbersome, IMHO...
It appears that the announcement on the call sign change was premature. It has not yet been updated in the FAA database.
Maybe FAA and ICAO want clear text
In all honesty, SEE A P is not so hard....just as easy as "CAP flight"
Why not, before you know it, it will be required before DHS / HLS missions get more serious
SO what is so tough about it?? (if it goes into effect)
Well, CAP fits the Air Force rules for Call Signs (5 letters or less) while CAP Flight did not.
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 03:03:05 AM
Well, CAP fits the Air Force rules for Call Signs (5 letters or less) while CAP Flight did not.
??
There are lots and lots of call sights longer then 5 letters.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 13, 2009, 03:24:17 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 03:03:05 AM
Well, CAP fits the Air Force rules for Call Signs (5 letters or less) while CAP Flight did not.
??
There are lots and lots of call sights longer then 5 letters.
Name a few... With the exact spelling used on the DD175 Flight Plan.
Trust me, they're limited to five letters.
And we're talking aircraft call signs, not Ground Station (i.e. Command post) call signs.
Quote from: DC on October 13, 2009, 02:20:42 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 13, 2009, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: CAPPAO on October 13, 2009, 12:51:11 AM
"CAP" means Combat Air Patrol in the USAF...
Yes, when its pronounced "KAP".
Which begs the question, is the call sign "CAP", or "SEE-AY-P"?
Probably the former, as the latter would come out 'charlie alpha papa', which is a little cumbersome, IMHO...
it would be nice to know
I am flying a proficiency flight tomorrow.
I am going to Use " CAP" and the number
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 03:36:27 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 13, 2009, 03:24:17 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 03:03:05 AM
Well, CAP fits the Air Force rules for Call Signs (5 letters or less) while CAP Flight did not.
??
There are lots and lots of call sights longer then 5 letters.
Name a few... With the exact spelling used on the DD175 Flight Plan.
Trust me, they're limited to five letters.
And we're talking aircraft call signs, not Ground Station (i.e. Command post) call signs.
Most seem to be 5 letters or less but there are exceptions. Check them out: http://members.optusnet.com.au/extremescan/usaf%20callsigns/uscallsigns.html
Quote from: emertins on October 13, 2009, 03:42:01 AM
I am flying a proficiency flight tomorrow.
I am going to Use " CAP" and the number
I would suggest checking with the FRO or better still Wing DO - we were just directed to hold off using "CAP" until further notice.
Quote from: Short Field on October 13, 2009, 03:46:41 AM
Most seem to be 5 letters or less but there are exceptions. Check them out: http://members.optusnet.com.au/extremescan/usaf%20callsigns/uscallsigns.html
I'm offended. My unit's not on the list.
What ? CAP requests a change and we got the email today from Salvador, et al and now we are waiting to use it or not use it
CAP ...... God for back and forth changes
Maybe call the originator of the email for some real fun and clarification.
This is what I remember CAP and now its coming back........ not tooo much on sticking to decisions the first time around..... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Interesting.
Maybe now we won't get confused with and called "Compassion Flight" by ATC.
Quote from: DC on October 12, 2009, 10:18:59 PM
Quote from: FL Wing KingEffective immediately, our FAA call sign has been changed. "CAP FLIGHT XXX" is now changed to "CAP XXX". For flight plan filing, CPF XXX is now CAP XXX.
Does anyone know why the FAA decided to suddenly change our call sign? If someone else is using CAP Flight it might lead to a little confusion.
Maybe the "Compassion Flight" confusion by ATC?
Quote from: DC on October 12, 2009, 10:18:59 PM
Quote from: FL Wing KingEffective immediately, our FAA call sign has been changed. "CAP FLIGHT XXX" is now changed to "CAP XXX". For flight plan filing, CPF XXX is now CAP XXX.
Does anyone know why the FAA decided to suddenly change our call sign? If someone else is using CAP Flight it might lead to a little confusion.
Where did you see this at? I havent heard anything come down my chain of command .
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 13, 2009, 05:13:00 AM
Does anyone know why the FAA decided to suddenly change our call sign? If someone else is using CAP Flight it might lead to a little confusion.
Its not sudden, its been in the works for decades, it just happened that CAP was finally awarded the call sign.
As to notification, John Salvador sent an email to the Wings, and many passed it downstream.
Quote from: Short Field on October 13, 2009, 03:46:41 AM
Most seem to be 5 letters or less but there are exceptions. Check them out: http://members.optusnet.com.au/extremescan/usaf%20callsigns/uscallsigns.html
That list is not exactly complete or even remotely up to date. At least not for USAF call signs.
Example: The C-5's at Travis use FRED for their "static" call sign. It's not listed...
Single-syllable callsigns are not conducive to effective communications, particularly when weak radios, cockpit noise and cheap microphones enter the equation. I'd much rather see something like "PATROL" or "CAPPER" etc. Far less likely to be misunderstood on the radio.
That said, I'm glad to see "CAPFLIGHT" go away...ATC often confused it with "AMFLIGHT" (Ameriflight, a Pt 135 cargo operation) on the radio, and in a busy terminal environment, having to repeat the callsign two or three times for them to get it right really wears thin on their patience and gums up the frequency needlessly.
Unless we're on a AF assigned mission where ATC would need to know we need priority handling why not use our tail number? Why the need for a special call sign?
There is an airfreight operation in my neck of the woods that uses CAP ### as a call sign, short for Capitol, City. I wonder what they will use instead now that Civil Air Patrol is "CAP"? ATC has occasionally gotten confused using call signs in the past when our aircraft and theirs were in the air simultaneously
^^^^
Yep... Aren't they still flying Aero Commander 500 series pistons?
Might have to rework the whole thing and get on the mic and say "Civil Air Patrol 1234" to save the whole confusion... and you can still say it a heavy traffic environment. Does it say in the FAR and AIM....initial call...... then abbreviation after initial call. CAP after the initial call.... Air Patrol after the initial call?
Whether or not CAP "initiated" the request, it just shows the request had to be more thought out and researched. Can't blame the FAA for everything when CAP has had plenty of opportunities in the past.
But then it just might be just as easy to call out the "N" numbers on the aircraft that is assigned to the airframe and use CAP call signs on SAREX's and AF missions. After all, our proficiency flights are just another "specialized commercial maneuver(s)" using the National Airspace System and we are still reporting in FAA airspace. CAP flight Form 5 and 91's are no more special than the FBO aircraft in the airspace. What would be so hard about using "N" number on CAP aircraft in NON distress, NON emergency functions.....suppose that was never thought of in the beginning, huh?
But this is CAPTalk....let the bellerin' begin >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
I would have to imagine that anything done by the Feds on an official notice is something intended to be system wide and that any current use of "CAP" could be something done only on the local or regional level, which could have probably not been done right.
...in other words, hold on to your microphones ... the verbiage could be about to fly.
Quote from: Mustang on October 13, 2009, 11:44:16 AM
Single-syllable callsigns are not conducive to effective communications, particularly when weak radios, cockpit noise and cheap microphones enter the equation. I'd much rather see something like "PATROL" or "CAPPER" etc. Far less likely to be misunderstood on the radio.
That said, I'm glad to see "CAPFLIGHT" go away...ATC often confused it with "AMFLIGHT" (Ameriflight, a Pt 135 cargo operation) on the radio, and in a busy terminal environment, having to repeat the callsign two or three times for them to get it right really wears thin on their patience and gums up the frequency needlessly.
There are a buch of single syllable call signs out there (i.e. MAC, REACH, SLAM, FRED, RRATS), and I haven't heard of any problems.
Not even overseas where the English skills are not the best.
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 05:35:41 AM
That list is not exactly complete or even remotely up to date. At least not for USAF call signs.
If you find a better source, please post it. This one is a resource site for people who use scanners.
CAP City flights I've seen look like 402's and Navajo's
About as official as it can get, me thinks:
Quote11 October 2009
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP NATIONAL BOARD MEMBERS
FROM: HQ CAP/MD
SUBJECT: Aircraft Callsign Change
1. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and the FAA have changed CAP's aircraft callsign to "CAP" instead of "CPF or CAP Flight." The new callsign should be used in air/ground communications and when filing flight plans. ICAO and the FAA will not permit CAP to have two callsigns so we will have to discontinue the use of "CAP Flight."
2 The pronunciation of the new "CAP" callsign is exactly how it sounds as in "baseball cap." It should be used along with the appropriate wing callsign number. Example: "CAP 1234." This new callsign should be included in the remarks section of all FAA flight plans.
3. Please distribute this information to all your aircrews and mission base staff. They can start using CAP's new aircraft callsign immediately. Thank you.
JOHN A. SALVADOR
Director, Missions
Tedda's take on things:
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/CAPnum/ask-auger_captain_fiftee.gif)
That's gonna cost somebody a keyboard...
Quote from: Short Field on October 13, 2009, 05:42:29 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 05:35:41 AM
That list is not exactly complete or even remotely up to date. At least not for USAF call signs.
If you find a better source, please post it. This one is a resource site for people who use scanners.
Yeah, I have a better source, but you can only access it from .mil computers and it's FOUO.
Which is probably why you haven't seen it.
Just got this from the VAWG DO
Some pilots are having problems filing flight plans with the FAA . The new call sign , CAP, is not recognized by FAA computers. I just advised National of the situation and they are recommending we return to the " old" way and use Cap Flight ( CPF) for both air communications and when filing any type of flight plan.
Once this problem has been resolved a notice will be sent to the members.
Jim T, LtCol, CAP
VAWG DO
Quote from: FLCAP 352 on October 14, 2009, 02:14:07 AM
Just got this from the VAWG DO
Some pilots are having problems filing flight plans with the FAA . The new call sign , CAP, is not recognized by FAA computers. I just advised National of the situation and they are recommending we return to the " old" way and use Cap Flight ( CPF) for both air communications and when filing any type of flight plan.
Once this problem has been resolved a notice will be sent to the members.
Jim T, LtCol, CAP
VAWG DO
thanks.
Now i know for my next flight not to use it.
I've yet to get any announcement from Wing ( in this case Florida wing)
:D im sorry i cant stop laughing about this, not in the faa database huh? :clap: :clap:
Quote from: emertins on October 14, 2009, 02:31:31 AM
Quote from: FLCAP 352 on October 14, 2009, 02:14:07 AM
Just got this from the VAWG DO
Some pilots are having problems filing flight plans with the FAA . The new call sign , CAP, is not recognized by FAA computers. I just advised National of the situation and they are recommending we return to the " old" way and use Cap Flight ( CPF) for both air communications and when filing any type of flight plan.
Once this problem has been resolved a notice will be sent to the members.
Jim T, LtCol, CAP
VAWG DO
thanks.
Now i know for my next flight not to use it.
I've yet to get any announcement from Wing ( in this case Florida wing)
Are you on the FLWG General email list? That's how I found out about it, Col. Moersch sent an email about it the other day.
{standing by to stand by} :-\
IIRC, it took about two months for the FAA to get their databases updated when AMC replaced MAC in 1992 and the mission callsign went from MAC to REACH.
Quote from: DC on October 14, 2009, 04:07:17 AM
Quote from: emertins on October 14, 2009, 02:31:31 AM
Quote from: FLCAP 352 on October 14, 2009, 02:14:07 AM
Just got this from the VAWG DO
Some pilots are having problems filing flight plans with the FAA . The new call sign , CAP, is not recognized by FAA computers. I just advised National of the situation and they are recommending we return to the " old" way and use Cap Flight ( CPF) for both air communications and when filing any type of flight plan.
Once this problem has been resolved a notice will be sent to the members.
Jim T, LtCol, CAP
VAWG DO
thanks.
Now i know for my next flight not to use it.
I've yet to get any announcement from Wing ( in this case Florida wing)
Are you on the FLWG General email list? That's how I found out about it, Col. Moersch sent an email about it the other day.
i have a flwg email and i receive all of the flwg correspondence.
I received his email about mandatory change to cap vs cap flight..
but not what you just posted.
looks like the FAA got their act together we're back to "CAP" as a call sign
Quote
-----Original Message-----
From: Salvador, John [mailto:JSALVADOR@capnhq.gov]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:57 AM
Subject: FAA GENOT for CAP Callsign
All,
See attached FAA GENOT. The FAA apologized for not getting this GENOT out
sooner. This should fix the problems some people experienced with using the
new callsign. Also attached is a sample flight plan so people can see where
the FAA wants us to put "CAP" in the remarks section (along with the
aircraft tail number). We've got a VIP we're dealing with at Maxwell AFB
today but we'll update the policy letter with these items and will reissue
it to all wing and region commanders on Friday.
Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you.
John A. Salvador
Director of Missions, HQ CAP
Toll Free: 888.211.1812 ext. 301
Phone: 334.953.3922 ext. 301
DSN: 493.3922 ext. 301
Fax: 800.555.7902 (DSN 493-5944)
jsalvador@capnhq.gov
well i did a flight yesterday as CAP XXX
and the first thing the tower did when i was cleared for takeoff was
"CAP Flight XXX" on every single call out he made..
I kept responding CAP XXX
i guess they are so used to us as CAP Flight , like some of us pilots it will be a hard habit to break. :)
Same here. Shot some approaches last night and tried "CAP xxx" and local and approach controllers kept calling me "CAP Flgiht xxx". I even fell back into that. So, ya, it will take a while. Don't see why we couldn't have stayed "CAP Flight" for the verbal callsign and just changed the ICAO identifier to CAP.
Flew both days this weekend as CAP XXX and had no problem with the tower and approach control using CAP as the callsign. I did heard several slips with CAP originated radio calls using CAP Flight.
So, I just read Salvador's letter ... the place where I see a nightmare-a-brewin' is on CAP VHF with the wings that have "<xxx> CAP" as their callsign prefix with unit numbers that duplicate the CAPFlight call signs.
Good times had by all.
I looked up the FAA genot (General Notice) on the faa site:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/7340.222.pdf
According to this it is not effective until 10/20/2009.
I also called my local tower (tys) and they had not heard of it. They suggested answering to both until things settle out. We are likely to hear capflight coming from controllers for some time.
Quote from: McLarty on October 19, 2009, 04:58:39 AM
So, I just read Salvador's letter ... the place where I see a nightmare-a-brewin' is on CAP VHF with the wings that have "<xxx> CAP" as their callsign prefix with unit numbers that duplicate the CAPFlight call signs.
Good times had by all.
I can see this as FL has a CPF 834 I was FLCAP 834 before we changed to only having 7 groups.
I would honestly be talking like I was missing part of My Callsign CAP 834 this is FLORIDA CAP 834 all most sounds as if I am calling myself.
Yesterday I flew and the tower kept calling us CAP Flt as well. We informed them that the FAA GENOT stated that we were not to be called CAP not CAP Flt. The slipped up a few times but when we returned a few hours later it seemed that they got it right. May take some time but works for me.
Quote from: PHall on October 13, 2009, 05:30:47 PM
Quote from: Mustang on October 13, 2009, 11:44:16 AM
Single-syllable callsigns are not conducive to effective communications, particularly when weak radios, cockpit noise and cheap microphones enter the equation. I'd much rather see something like "PATROL" or "CAPPER" etc. Far less likely to be misunderstood on the radio.
That said, I'm glad to see "CAPFLIGHT" go away...ATC often confused it with "AMFLIGHT" (Ameriflight, a Pt 135 cargo operation) on the radio, and in a busy terminal environment, having to repeat the callsign two or three times for them to get it right really wears thin on their patience and gums up the frequency needlessly.
There are a buch of single syllable call signs out there (i.e. MAC, REACH, SLAM, FRED, RRATS), and I haven't heard of any problems.
Not even overseas where the English skills are not the best.
DEATH, CZAR, PAT, BUD, MICH, DOOM, PARD, FAST. Of course, my company's callsign is six syllables, which is WAY too long.
Quote from: sparks on October 13, 2009, 02:32:02 PM
There is an airfreight operation in my neck of the woods that uses CAP ### as a call sign, short for Capitol, City. I wonder what they will use instead now that Civil Air Patrol is "CAP"? ATC has occasionally gotten confused using call signs in the past when our aircraft and theirs were in the air simultaneously
They're not using their correct callsign.... supposed to be CAP CITY, not just CAP.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Basic7340.2A.pdf
Quote from: Short Field on October 13, 2009, 03:46:41 AM
Most seem to be 5 letters or less but there are exceptions. Check them out: http://members.optusnet.com.au/extremescan/usaf%20callsigns/uscallsigns.html
Many of those are callsigns used on non-ATC channels.
Tactical callsigns used for ATC purposes are supposed to be "pronounceable words of 5 letters or less". Before you all start yelling "but I heard someone say....", yeah you DID hear Red Lion 14 on frequency... but his flight plan says "RDLN14", and so did his little datablock on my radar screen. For the computer, callsigns need to be between 3 and 7 characters.
Don't mistake the old "CPF" and "CAPFlight" or the new "CAP" and "Cap" as tactical callsigns - they are a "three−letter identifier and/or telephony designator" per the ICAO.
So, as I live and breathe ... :)
Just saw general notice 12/18 come out for JO 7340.2C the other day (available here (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7340.288.pdf)) effective Aug 2 and lo and behold, it says:
QuoteADDITIONS
US AIR FORCE AUXILIARY, CIVIL AIR PATROL (CAP)
(MAXWELL AFB, AL) CAP-FLIGHT CPF
So apparently CAP-Flight's back. Anyone have any idea what the motivation was for
this one?
We have both CAP and CAPFlight. CAP is our primary, CPF is the backup. Per National, there is NO plan to go back to CAPFlight. When the FAA gave CAP to CAP, is was supposed to be an addition to CPF, not a replacement. The new FAA letter merely adds CPF back to CAP. It does not take away the CAP designator. Some ATC and FSS didn't pay attention to the letter. CPF is under "Additions". National has been requested by wing comm folks to work with the FAA to get this matter resolved.
Got an E-mail from NHQ DC about this.
When we switched to CAP XXXX from CAPFLIGHT XXXXX the FAA was supposed to keep the CAPFLIGHT call sign avialble....but they did not.
This simply adds the call sign to the available list......but according to everyone in the E-mail......we are NOT supposed to use it.
My understanding is that the FAA added it back as an approved call sign though CAPNHQ prefers we just use CAP which is still approved and was not deleted by the FAA.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 30, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
Got an E-mail from NHQ DC about this.
When we switched to CAP XXXX from CAPFLIGHT XXXXX the FAA was supposed to keep the CAPFLIGHT call sign avialble....but they did not.
This simply adds the call sign to the available list......but according to everyone in the E-mail......we are NOT supposed to use it.
I use CAP all the time, it's about 50/50 whether ATC responds as CAP or CAPFLIGHT.
Doesn't really matter to me, I still know they're talking to me!
Yep.. I've had ATC answer back with capflight#### after I had used cap####.
The change from Capflight to CAP was needed to avoid confusion occuring with ATC with the
Compassion Flight call sign.