Hey, friends, just wondering why the CAP hasn't implemented the position of C/CCMSGT into our grade system. Seems kinda redundant to not have it, since most squadrons need that gateway of info between enlisted and officer even at the wing level. Answer?
- C/TSgt Jim 'Jimbobarooni" Lahaie
There are no cadet positions at the wing level. What information is needed that cannot be passed between cadet officers and cadet enlisted at the unit level via the existing structure?
Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.
There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.
There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
Oh boy.
There is no such thing as "enlisted" cadets. You are simply experiencing different levels of a program designed to mimic real world corporate or military structure in a compressed time. The goal of the cadet program is to finish it, not pretend you're some sort of super sergeant after a few hundred hours of experience.
Or aa I suspect, you're a troll.
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.
There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
All of that is chain of command stuff. Some regs that the field (cadets & seniors) think are bogus, have been implemented due to laws and legal issues.The other option is CAC, whose job it is to provide a cadet channel to the appropriate command level.
As for the ABU, or other uniform changes, that requires USAF approval, not CAP. In particular, when the DoD regs regarding who can wear it were written, an exemption for non-military personnel wearing them was not provided. This was necessary due to some of the properties of the fabric.
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 01:17:56 AM
Hey, friends, just wondering why the CAP hasn't implemented the position of C/CCMSGT into our grade system. Seems kinda redundant to not have it, since most squadrons need that gateway of info between enlisted and officer even at the wing level. Answer?
- C/TSgt Jim 'Jimbobarooni" Lahaie
redundant - You used that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. What is redundant about a "missing" position?
Here's what I got from Wiktionary:
redundant:
Superfluous; exceeding what is necessary.
(of words, writing, etc) Repetitive or needlessly wordy.
(chiefly Britain, New Zealand, Australia) Dismissed from employment because no longer needed.
Duplicating or able to duplicate the function of another component of a system, providing backup in the event the other component fails.
Aside from that, you are correct that it is a position, not a grade. Therefore, it doesn't need to be a part of the grade system, any more than Cadet Commander needs to be a part thereof.
In reality, the position doesn't really fit into the cadet program. The functions that go with RealMilitary™ Command Chiefs are closer to the duties of the CAC - advisors to commanders.
Blip........blip........blip........blip....
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was the "All City" Cadet Command Sergeant Major in the Los Angeles JROTC Corps of Cadets. Still have the epaulets. That was a "Brigade" level position in a world of Cadet "Battalions" (school formations, similar to our "Groups"), so that "All City Staff" was the sort of equal to our "Wing" structures. Sort of, similar to our Wing CAC. Just as useless but I did get a massive yellow cord that we called "Chicken Guts" to wear. No duties, no job except to show up for an annual "photo op"!
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
Uniform alterations, regulations that enlisted think are bogus, corrupt officers that wing need to know about, so on and so forth.
Seriously, no idea where to even start with that. There is 100% zero distinction between officers and NCOs in
a CAP context for adults, and for cadets it is simply a very short lesson in "pointers vs. shooters" as they move up the
grades.
Few cadets stay in the grades long enough to get more then an inkling of the "NCO vs. officer" paradigm,
and few CAP units have the scale to provide those opportunities, never mind actually try to implement them.
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 01:39:16 AM
There are some things that enlisted-men see MUCH differently from officers that go unsaid, like changing to the ABU a few years back. The idea first came from an enlisted CAC rep, but never made it to the big leagues until 10 years later. Wheeze.
You
really believe that the idea to change to ABUs started in a CAC?
Why do you keep using the term "Enlisted Cadet" There is no such grade in CAP, Never has been, never will be.
There is no reason to have a Cadet Command Chief, because as pointed out by a previous poster, there no cadet positions at the Group, Wing, Region, or National Levels.
As for the "Experience of the Cadet NCO", every Cadet Officer has had that experience
Enlisted cadets, as in the grades of Cadet Airman Basic to Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (Ach eight). It is a widely used blanket statement that defines lower-level airmen and NCOs. I see a lot of people saying that 'cadet enlisted' do not exist; with that logic, I guess you could say that 'cadet officers' don't exist either. And no, I'm not trolling, didn't even give off that vibe. Others, thanks for answering. Now, back to the question please, mmmm-kay?
Quote from: Jim Lahaie on April 08, 2019, 05:22:29 PM
Enlisted cadets, as in the grades of Cadet Airman Basic to Cadet Chief Master Sergeant (Ach eight). It is a widely used blanket statement that defines lower-level airmen and NCOs. I see a lot of people saying that 'cadet enlisted' do not exist; with that logic, I guess you could say that 'cadet officers' don't exist either. And no, I'm not trolling, didn't even give off that vibe. Others, thanks for answering. Now, back to the question please, mmmm-kay?
Again, the goal of the program is to finish the program. Creating a "Command Chief" has no place in the structure or program.
Echoing the remarks from the previous comments---
The grades are C/E-1 through C/E-9, then C/O-1. The intent is to prepare a cadet to progress from C/E-1 to C/O-1.
So when you hit C/CMSgt, you hit C/E-9. You don't need to go into other C/E-9 posts since it's time to transition to cadet officer grades. Honestly, I don't even know why we're rocking two C/CMSgts. But that's a separate topic.
Squadron First Sergeants are C/MSgts through C/CMSgts. That's the end of the First Sergeant track. Command Chiefs aren't First Sergeants; different duty altogether.
Duty assignment (First Sergeant, Command Chief) is not the same as grade, despite grade being the basis for holding the position. Command Chief is above a squadron level. Cadets are only assigned to Squadrons and Flights. So Cadet Command Chief isn't a thing in the cadet world due to that.
The only time I've ever heard of a Cadet Command Chief is at encampments, and they're the POC for all NCO's... I still don't agree with the position.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is
allowed to exist?
I just don't see the usefulness of the position at an encampment. NCO's are logically going to be Line or Support Staff. The purpose of Flight Commanders or C/OIC's are to train their subordinates. C/Command Chief is just a glorified POC for all NCO's, yet they already have a dedicated trainer. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I agree. It's not a position in 20-1. I just don't see the point is all.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2019, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?
Uh, yeah, it is
allowed to exist at an Encampment.
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 09:15:59 PM
I just don't see the usefulness of the position at an encampment. NCO's are logically going to be Line or Support Staff. The purpose of Flight Commanders or C/OIC's are to train their subordinates. C/Command Chief is just a glorified POC for all NCO's, yet they already have a dedicated trainer. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I agree. It's not a position in 20-1. I just don't see the point is all.
You could make the argument that a First Sergeant doesn't need to exist, if the trainers train their direct subordinates (as nobody reports to the First Sergeant). Nobody reports to the squadron XO either.
Command Chiefs at Encampment can absolutely have a role.
The Encampment guide literally says to tailor the org chart to the specific Encampment, just as you do for squadrons.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 09, 2019, 01:06:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2019, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?
Uh, yeah, it is allowed to exist at an Encampment.
Strongly non-concur.
The encampment program has very specific roles and titles, and C/CCMSGT isn't one of them.
CAPP 60-70 Page 16:
"4.1 Organizational Structure
The encampment is a Group-sized organization in all but the smallest wings' encampments, where the
encampment may operate as a squadron. Accordingly, a Cadet Training Group (CTG) is comprised of two
or more squadrons. A Cadet Training Squadron (CTS) consists of two or more flights. Encampments will
operate using the traditional, military-style "line" and "staff" organizational model, similar to what is
depicted in Figure 4.1 on page 19; an incident command system model is not authorized for encampments"(https://i.postimg.cc/y8pdTBKv/encorgchart.jpg)
There is allowance for adjustment to the above (i.e. 1 SQD vs. 2, what cadet support staff to use, etc.).
There is none for making up titles out of whole cloth, or worse creating grade insignia for them.
As indicated the encampment is a Group model, so the SQD First Shirts would be the highest NCOs in that
model.
Further to this:
CAPP 60-70, Page 3:
"b. Air Force Credentialing & Supplements. The encampment is the cadets' major introduction to Air
Force service traditions and career opportunities, and is pre-requisite for the Mitchell Award, whose recipients
are eligible to enlist in the Air Force at the grade of E-3. Therefore, the Air Force, through CAP-USAF,
is a key stakeholder of the encampment program. CAP will coordinate all significant revisions to the encampment
program with CAP-USAF before enacting any changes. Accordingly, encampments may issue operating instructions,
handbooks, training materials, etc., that amplify this document's guidance, but will not
issue supplements that contradict or lessen any standards set by this publication.
Now, with the above posted, I would ask further under what theory of experience or training would
a respective cadet be considered "qualified" to be a C/CCMSGT, at an encampment, a wing, or otherwise?
By the time they went through even the most reasonable selection process they wouldn't be C/Chiefs anymore.
At >most< a properly progressing cadet is a C/Chief for what, 6 months? And during that time they
are not receiving any training, nor garnering any experience on "managing managers" in the way a
Super Chief does.
They are no different in any perspective then any other C/Chief, and you can't even site experience
as a properly progressing C/Chief won't be a C/Chief next year, and one who is certainly isn't showing himself
to be upholding the oath, or to be executing above and beyond.
Even moreso, being a First Shirt at most encampments is as much about timing as anything else.
I'd say the majority of them over the years in my experience have been promoting at or right after encampment,
or the timing simply didn't work at all. So now you'd have the encampment program offering a role that
would actively encourage the delay of cadet progression?
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2019, 08:21:31 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
Because that's not a thing that exists, nor is allowed to exist?
Not allowed? I can create any position I want when I'm running my encampment.
I can call the top NCO position Command Chief or I can tall him Assistant to the Cadet Commander. There are no regulations that govern this as far as I know.
Now....if they start gluing stars on the C/CMSgt Insignia and giving him a smokey bear hat.....that's crossing the line.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 09, 2019, 04:08:21 AM
There are no regulations that govern this as far as I know.
Now....if they start gluing stars on the C/CMSgt Insignia and giving him a smokey bear hat.....that's crossing the line.
A: 60-70 quoted in this thread. Yeah it's a pamphlet, but it's also indicated as the authority by a reg.
B: Making up names for otherwise existing positions isn't what we're discussing, but still, the whole
idea of standardization works against making up positions, especially those at a larger scope then an encampment
is supposed to emulate.
One of the ongoing issues cited by NHQ is trying to get encampments to some semblance of a standard, is that
foibles and warts aside, they provided a clear framework, including structure and terminology, and yet some 6+ years
later wings insist on ignoring the parts they don't like.
C: Agree about home-grown insignia and smokey hats.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
NHQ came down heavily on that several years ago. To paraphrase: There is no authorized grade of C/CCMSgt, and there is also no authorization for "temporary" grades for encampments.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 09, 2019, 03:13:03 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Capmonkey on April 08, 2019, 07:41:35 PM
I still don't agree with the position.
Why's that?
NHQ came down heavily on that several years ago. To paraphrase: There is no authorized grade of C/CCMSgt, and there is also no authorization for "temporary" grades for encampments.
It's not a grade in that sense. It's a duty assignment.
We don't have Adjutants either in cadet squadrons, but some Encampments have them.
We're taking guidance way too literally here without reading the "shoulds" vs. "shalls" as they apply. It's fairly open in maintaining flexibility so long as the military-style structure is maintained. It doesn't need to be exact to the org chart depicted in the pamphlet.
And if we're going to take the text as literal, it clearly states
Encampments will operate using the traditional, military-style "line" and "staff" organizational model, similar to what is depicted in Figure 4.1 on page 19. In this regard specifically, you adjust the organizational structure to be within the military-style model to meet the need of the Encampment:
1.) The number of cadets
2.) The grades of the cadets
3.) The betterment of hometown units
When National came down on that there was an Encampment that published pictures of cadets wearing the Chief insignia with star and Smokie hats. Both of which were and still are illegal wear.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 09, 2019, 07:10:38 PM
When National came down on that there was an Encampment that published pictures of cadets wearing the Chief insignia with star and Smokie hats. Both of which were and still are illegal wear.
Totally tracking now, and in complete agreement.
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on April 09, 2019, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 09, 2019, 07:10:38 PM
When National came down on that there was an Encampment that published pictures of cadets wearing the Chief insignia with star and Smokie hats. Both of which were and still are illegal wear.
Totally tracking now, and in complete agreement.
Agree. Even C/Command Chiefs at my Wing Encampment wear the star in the insignia...
NHQ/CP attempts to support our terrific encampment commanders in the reasoned exercise of their discretion within the limits of our regulations. If a given encampment commander wants to employ an NCO position at the cadet group level of encampment, we will support that decision. If they don't need one, that's OK, too.
However, no encampment commander may permit the wearing of unauthorized grade insignia, like, say, stars on a hypothetical Cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant insignia. That would be improper in any wing, and I would hope that any experienced CP officer would point out such an error and help educate any members that might otherwise believe it was proper.
I understand that many, if not all, CONUS encampments will enjoy outside visitors this summer. This will be an excellent opportunity to spread Best Encampment Practices throughout the country.
Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
On that note, I think this topic has run its course.
Say goodbye.