Encampment 60-81

[soar]

I am currently applying for ATS in my home wing of Florida. The form to apply says "do not submit the form without a signed CAPF 60-81 from your commander." I filled out the form and sent it to my squadron commander so that he and the group commander can sign it. He responded saying "After Group Commander _________ signs the form it normally goes to  Wing Commander Garcia. After that it is shipped to the Winter Encampment team for processing."

I thought that I was supposed to get the form back after it had been signed by the Squadron Cmdr and Group Cmdr ,and submit it myself in the formstack, FLWG Winter Encampment form. Do I ask him for a signed copy or what?

[arajca]

You need to ask this through your chain of command or the Florida Wing Encampment team.

[TheSkyHornet]

It does not need to go to the Wing Commander if the Encampment is held within your home wing, as you stated. This statement is clear on the CAPF 60-81 right above the Wing Commander signature line.



 

[jeders]

It does not need to go to the Wing Commander if the Encampment is held within your home wing, as you stated beyond the squadron commander. 

FTFY

You need to ask this through your chain of command or the Florida Wing Encampment team.

This is the most accurate statement.

[TheSkyHornet]

It does not need to go to the Wing Commander if the Encampment is held within your home wing, as you stated beyond the squadron commander. 

FTFY

It doesn't go to the Group Commander if the activity is held within the group.

I think the F60-81 has too much red tape by requiring Group Commander signatures. Groups are regionally gerrymandered. If you go 10 miles west, you're in another group. It may even be the next town over. I understand the logic on crossing state lines (which should be more of a legality thing for minors than anything else). But if a squadron invites cadets from another squadron, I don't know why you need an additional layer of oversight. The two squadron commanders should be ultimately responsible for the conduct of the activity and the individuals they permit to participate.

[jeders]

It does not need to go to the Wing Commander if the Encampment is held within your home wing, as you stated beyond the squadron commander. 

FTFY

It doesn't go to the Group Commander if the activity is held within the group.

For an encampment, it doesn't go to anyone above the squadron commander, period.

To participate, cadets must have completed Achievement 1, and receive permission from their parent or guardian and unit commander via a CAPF 60-81.

The parents and squadron commander are the only ones who need to approve the application. Anything more is adding unnecessary roadblocks not allowed by regulation. National has been very clear about this, yet wings are still trying to make it harder for cadets because no one reads the *&^@#*^ regulation (or in the case of at least one former DCP, they do read the regulation, know what national wants, and actively put up more barriers anyway).

I think the F60-81 has too much red tape by requiring Group Commander signatures. Groups are regionally gerrymandered. If you go 10 miles west, you're in another group. It may even be the next town over. I understand the logic on crossing state lines (which should be more of a legality thing for minors than anything else). But if a squadron invites cadets from another squadron, I don't know why you need an additional layer of oversight. The two squadron commanders should be ultimately responsible for the conduct of the activity and the individuals they permit to participate.

Group commanders have absolutely no approval role in cadets participating in unit/group activities outside of their home group.

Units sometimes open their activities to cadets from outside units. To participate at an activity hosted by a CAP unit other than their own, cadets must obtain permission from their parent, home unit commander, and be accepted by the hosting unit. Commanders will ordinarily approve cadets' requests to attend these activities, denying requests only for good cause. If approving a cadet to attend an activity hosted by another wing, the unit commander will inform the wing DCP.

So, parent, unit commander, and hosting unit; never does a 60-81 need to go to group.

[TheSkyHornet]

The CAPF 60-81 literally has the Group Commander signature line on it. It's a poorly interfaced process, but the form states:

Group Commander's signature is not necessary if the activity is approved in eServices or if the activity
is held within the group.

The regulation doesn't state that it's required, but the form itself suggests that it is.

[jeders]

The regulation lays out the requirements, anything above that requires a supplement to the regulation. Forms cannot alter the regulation that prescribes their use.

If your wing or group leadership are requiring signatures for encampment on the 60-81 beyond the parents and squadron commander, then they are doing it wrong and need to stop.

[Eclipse]

I agree, and assuming CAP ever has encampments again, this is something I'm going to push, however there
are some Wings (and Regions) that have (or had) standing policies, and in some cases Supplements
to the effect that "participation outside your Wing or Region required respective CC approval".

(Not to mention we've had occasions where Wing CC's were barring participation at out-of-state
encampments).

Are there any other regs that cover general membership that hold such a requirement?

"Wing Certification. (Wing Commander's signature is not necessary if the activity is approved in eServices or if the activity is held within the wing.)"

As usual, NHQ verbiage is vague, but you could certainly also make the argument that every encampment is approved in eServices (It does not say "participation", it says "activity")