Insignia for New Seniors in Alternate Uniforms

Started by davedove, October 10, 2006, 02:36:26 PM

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davedove

I have a question about the grade insignia for new senior members who, for whatever reason, choose to wear the alternate uniforms, specifically, the aviator shirt/grey slacks uniform and the blue field uniform.

Do you just wear the uniforms without any grade insignia?
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

arajca

I presume you're talking about SM's without grade. If so, you are correct. They don't wear anything on the shoulders until they either get their 2d Lt or receive their NCO grade (current and former military NCO's only).

davedove

Quote from: arajca on October 10, 2006, 03:00:36 PM
I presume you're talking about SM's without grade. If so, you are correct. They don't wear anything on the shoulders until they either get their 2d Lt or receive their NCO grade (current and former military NCO's only).

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.  Thanks.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Eclipse

I believe you have to wear "CAP" on the collar of the field uniform until you are appointed to a grade.

"That Others May Zoom"

Psicorp

I just went through this myself until I was promoted.  On the blue BDUs, everything is the same as the regular BDUs, just the color of the material is different.  SMs without grade still wear the cloth "CAP" insignia on both collars on the field uniforms and the metal "CAP" on the collars of the aviator shirts.

Welcome aboard!
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

davedove

Quote from: Psicorp on October 10, 2006, 03:57:51 PM
I just went through this myself until I was promoted.  On the blue BDUs, everything is the same as the regular BDUs, just the color of the material is different.  SMs without grade still wear the cloth "CAP" insignia on both collars on the field uniforms and the metal "CAP" on the collars of the aviator shirts.

Welcome aboard!

Do you have a source for this information?  In the 39-1, I can find that this is true for the BDU's and the Service uniform, but I can't find anything about it for the CAP distinctive uniforms.

In a few more months I won't personally have to worry about this, but it would be good information for other new members.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Psicorp

It gets rather confusing at times because our uniforms seem to always be in a state of change.  Make sure when you are looking at 39-1, that you also look at the most recent letters/changes, not just the regulation itself.

For the Corporate uniform, 39-1 states:

New CAP Distinctive Uniform (atch 1). The Board approved a new optional
CAP distinctive uniform for senior members. The uniform consists of the following:
- White aviator shirt – short or long sleeve (AF blue tie or CAP blue floppy bow
mandatory with long sleeve shirt)
- Blue AF-style pants/slack or skirt
- Dark blue 1 ¼ inch cotton web or elastic belt with silver buckle
- Blue AF-style epaulets
- Blue two-line nameplate
- CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray
slacks combination are authorized
- No military badges or devices
- Currently, No headgear authorized (wear of headgear to be reviewed for possible
May NEC action)

Note that the headgear has been determined to be either the flight cap with the SM badge or the soon-to-be-released service cap.

Okay, now that I look at it, it's starting to frustrate me too :)    It doesn't specifically mention what insignia Senior Members without rank are to wear. *ack!* It would seem as though it follows the Air Force uniform though, which would indicate that CAP cutouts are called for.  Perhaps going without them would be okay too.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

MIKE

#7
I looked it up in CAPM 39-1, noticed it doesn't say anything about SMs w/o grade WRT the CAP distinctive uniforms... So I'm not comfortable commenting either way.

This is why I recommend new SMs stick to the golf shirts though, until they get their bars..
Mike Johnston

Psicorp

Quote from: MIKE on October 10, 2006, 06:42:54 PM
I looked it up in CAPM 39-1, noticed it doesn't say anything about SMs w/o grade WRT the CAP distinctive uniforms... So I'm not comfortable commending either way.

This is why I recommend new SMs stick to the golf shirts though, until they get their bars..

That would make sense, Sir, except that Level 1 is virtually the same as the Cadets' Phase 1 in that knowing and demonstrating how to wear the uniform (as well as basic customs and courtesies) is part of their introductory training.  I do realize that the golf shirt/slacks combo is a uniform, but many will want to wear either the Air Force style or the Corpprate uniforms after promotion.  Wouldn't it be better to have them learn and demonstrate it ahead of promotion?  Just a thought, Sir.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

SarDragon

Quote from: Psicorp on October 10, 2006, 09:07:06 PMThat would make sense, Sir, except that Level 1 is virtually the same as the Cadets' Phase 1 in that knowing and demonstrating how to wear the uniform (as well as basic customs and courtesies) is part of their introductory training.  I do realize that the golf shirt/slacks combo is a uniform, but many will want to wear either the Air Force style or the Corpprate uniforms after promotion.  Wouldn't it be better to have them learn and demonstrate it ahead of promotion?  Just a thought, Sir.

Emphasis mine.

Not exactly. During Phase I, the cadets laern to wear the uniform on a practical basis during the [however many] weeks they are in that phase, and are thoroughly educated when they are done.

During Level I for the SMs, they attend a one day class, only after completion of which are they allowed to wear a uniform. There is really no practice period involved. I guess that adults are expected to get it right the first time.

As for the OP's question, all that info should have been put out during your Level I class. If it wasn't, your instructors have done you a disservice.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

One day?  Heh...Including lunch, dinner & breaks?

Most Seniors get a couple hours sitting in front of a tv and then are sent home clueless.

The new Level one is study-at-home w/ even less interaction.

That's not what >we< do, but what I hear many units do.

With that said, I too recommend  the golf shirt combo for new members.

A) Why spend the time and money on an org you may not fit with.  There's very little most seniors could do in their first 6 months that can't be performed / trained in the golf shirt combo.

B) Those silly cutouts ruin your shirt.

"That Others May Zoom"

afgeo4

We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not.  So...  no metal cap cutouts are authorized on the new alternate corporate uniform (white shirt, blue pants) and thus none shall be worn until such is authorized.  I think it is in line with the USAF Airman Basics not wearing any grade insignia.  Be advised that metal cap cutouts are to be worn on the alternate corporate uniform's service jacket and lightweight jacket (on epaulets). 

Has anyone checked out the look of black shoes, blue pants, white shirt, black jacket, blue flight cap look?  It kinda scares me a lil, but I haven't seen it either on anyone or in pictures.
GEORGE LURYE

davedove

Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not. 

That's what I would tend to say.  In 39-1, the requirements for senior members without grade are specifically spelled out, so the cutouts must be worn.

Since senior members without grade are NOT mentioned for the CAP distinctive uniforms, it would tell me that nothing is worn.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

SarDragon

Quote from: davedove on October 12, 2006, 08:10:54 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on October 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
We should probably stick with the spirit of regulations and say that unless something is authorized, it is not. 

That's what I would tend to say.  In 39-1, the requirements for senior members without grade are specifically spelled out, so the cutouts must be worn.

Since senior members without grade are NOT mentioned for the CAP distinctive uniforms, it would tell me that nothing is worn.

That is correct. The language is a little (very) vague, but my read is that SMWOG wear nothing associated with grade, including the "blank" grey epaulet slides.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

carnold1836

The CAP cut-outs must be worn with the White/Grey until promoted to 2LT. As for White/Blue from the Memorandum for CAP Unit Comanders dated 15 March 2006 the followin is stated

"CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray slacks combination are authorized."

So wouldn't this include the CAP cutouts for SMWOG? Just currious.

As for the golf shirt I am not an overly big fan of those. I have seen them being worn at group commander's calls and group staff meetings and those that are wearing them look like they are in a flying club and not in an organization that prides itself in its heritage of working closely with the USAAC/USAF.

Just my .02
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

DNall

Not that this bears on the answer here, but we did have a thread over at the portal that discussed a blanck CAP slide & blank blue slide, and back to embroidered cutouts on the BDU. How do you tell the dif between an older looking (17-18) C/AB & a young (18-19) SM? That might be important from a legal perspective. Oh, and since "Senior Member" is being dropped, we went to calling this "Officer Candidate." Wouldn't that just be so much simpler, and I understand vanguard has blank CAP slides - I guess they do the embroidery in house.

SarDragon

Quote from: carnold1836 on November 02, 2006, 02:03:10 PM
The CAP cut-outs must be worn with the White/Grey until promoted to 2LT.

Reference please. I see no mention of cutouts on the white aviator shirt worn with the grey slacks.

QuoteAs for White/Blue from the Memorandum for CAP Unit Comanders dated 15 March 2006 the followin is stated

"CAP badges and devices as currently authorized on the aviator shirt with gray slacks combination are authorized."

So wouldn't this include the CAP cutouts for SMWOG? Just currious.

Probably not. See above.

QuoteAs for the golf shirt I am not an overly big fan of those. I have seen them being worn at group commander's calls and group staff meetings and those that are wearing them look like they are in a flying club and not in an organization that prides itself in its heritage of working closely with the USAAC/USAF.

Just my .02

They are comfortable, they are easy to take care of, and when everyone is wearing them, they are uniform.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

Quote from: DNall on November 02, 2006, 10:14:04 PM[redacted] How do you tell the dif between an older looking (17-18) C/AB & a young (18-19) SM?

Well, in anything but BDUs, the nametag. In BDUs, 

QuoteThat might be important from a legal perspective. Oh, and since "Senior Member" is being dropped, we went to calling this "Officer Candidate." Wouldn't that just be so much simpler, and I understand vanguard has blank CAP slides - I guess they do the embroidery in house.

They probably aren't embroidered at all by Vanguard. The blank slides are intended for NCO pin-on rank.  I haven't ever seen the slides with embroidered NCO rank, although they are alleged to exist. I don't see them in the Vanguard catalog.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Camas

Quote from: SarDragon
Reference please. I see no mention of cutouts on the white aviator shirt worn with the grey slacks.

I was under the impression that members without grade simply wore the aviator shirt with just a nametag.

BillB

A member without grade can wear any authorized uniform. But there are so few that nobody thought about them when 39-1 was written to give all details on uniform insignias. One reason being that members without grade most often have not taken level 1 and CPPT. However there are members that prefer not to be officers, those are the ones National forgot.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104