2B for felony charge

[lordmonar]

What else are they considering?  Below Wing CC there's no protection for staff or command slots.
(I guess I mentally lump being removed as a Wing CC and membership termination as the same thing.)

From the last MARB report only 2 of the 12 cases heard were for wing commanders.  All the rest were group and below including several that were just members in staff (not command) positions.

Were these membership terminations or removal from the staff jobs?

Terminations, removal from jobs, and demotions.

[Eclipse]

What else are they considering?  Below Wing CC there's no protection for staff or command slots.
(I guess I mentally lump being removed as a Wing CC and membership termination as the same thing.)

From the last MARB report only 2 of the 12 cases heard were for wing commanders.  All the rest were group and below including several that were just members in staff (not command) positions.

Were these membership terminations or removal from the staff jobs?

Terminations, removal from jobs, and demotions.

OK, well terminations and demotions I can understand, but removal from jobs is an at-will situation, forgive me for not reading the doc myself, but the MARB is getting involved when a unit-level line staffer  (AEO, etc.) is removed from a job?

[lordmonar]

By regulation the MARB only looks at suspentions, demotions, terminations and removal of commanders.....but they may look at other situations (such as staff removals) at the discrsion of the MARB chairman.

[FW]

Actually, (and we're way off topic), the MARB will only look at what is authorized unless the MARB votes to hear a special case deamed in the interest of CAP.  The chair can only waive rules found in the regulation as to "timely reporting".  They have looked into the removal of a person from such positions as IC or other mission specialty when a suspension/termination made them unqualified for renewal however, to date, have never done anything about it. 

[lordmonar]

Actually, (and we're way off topic), the MARB will only look at what is authorized unless the MARB votes to hear a special case deamed in the interest of CAP.  The chair can only waive rules found in the regulation as to "timely reporting".  They have looked into the removal of a person from such positions as IC or other mission specialty when a suspension/termination made them unqualified for renewal however, to date, have never done anything about it.

I was looking at this paragraph.

b. The MARB shall accept an appeal of a final adverse membership action only if the MARB, by majority vote, determines after its initial review of the materials that there exists sufficient credible evidence and documentation within the appellant's material that, if true, would establish that the action was motivated by retaliation, reached without due process, or involved a material failure to follow applicable CAP regulations. The MARB may, within its sole discretion, accept or decline an appeal of a final adverse membership action in all other cases which do not meet the criteria above but which present issues of importance to Civil Air Patrol, the resolution of which will benefit the organization.

This allows the MARB to look at anthing that is classified as "advers membership action".  They have look at someone getting their ES qualifications pulled.  And ruled that the individual has the right to re-earn those qualifications.

d. On 17 December 2007, Captain Patrick L. Benoit, Group II, Texas Wing, appealed his demotion to the grade of captain and membership suspension of 60 days stating they were reached without due process and were retaliatory in nature as a result of his resignation as Texas Wing, Deputy Director of Operations. On 31 May 2007, then Col Reggie L. Chitwood, Commander, Southwest Region, initiated the actions based on then Major Benoit's insubordination and misconduct in accordance with his distribution of his resignation letter as Texas Wing Deputy Director of Operations. Additionally, on 1 June 2007 his emergency services qualifications were suspended until the Texas Wing commander determined and certified to the Region Commander that his attitude did not pose a safety risk for participating in CAP Emergency Services operations. Although the membership suspension was completed in August 2007, Captain Benoit's Emergency Services qualifications remained suspended on 1 November 2007 when Lt Col Owen Younger, Commander, Group II, Texas Wing, notified him that he had been unable to determine what action needed to be completed to reinstate the Emergency Services qualifications. The MARB decided to hear the case using the 1 November date as the end of all administrative/appeal actions. On 3 July 2008, the MARB determined that the demotion and membership suspension were not based upon retaliation, lack of due process or a material breach of regulations. They did, however, find that the requirement to requalify for his Emergency Services qualifications with only certain personnel was inconsistent with and unduly restrictive when compared to existing regulations. The MARB ruled that Captain Benoit was to be provided with an opportunity to requalify/recertify for the ES ratings with any qualified Emergency Services personnel at the Group or Wing level who were qualified by regulation to evaluate and certify qualifications.

e. The Chairman of the MARB may revoke, amend, or waive any provision of this regulation for good cause unless Article XVI of the CAP Constitution requires application of the provision. The Chairman of the MARB must give notice of the waiver to all parties, but is not required to give the parties an opportunity to respond

By definition the MARB has extraordinary powers to look into injuctices.

[Eclipse]

By definition the MARB has extraordinary powers to look into injustices.

Not by the letter of what you have up there - I'd agree they may have some powers in regards to member situations that have a process, but the appointment of local staff officers doesn't have a process, or an appeal.

Demotions and ES are different beasts, since the 60-series outlines specifics on suspension of quals, and demotions have their own regs.

I can't imagine them considering some random local staff officer who is no longer on the CC's Christmas card list, since the only process for appointment or removal is a CAPF 2a and the CC's whim.  The only avenue of "appeal" would be the next higher HQ, who would likely support the decision unless the commander himself was being replaced.

The last thing you'd want is higher-hq's dictating your staff officers, or the MARB forcing a local CC to keep someone they didn't want to work with.

[lordmonar]

The MARB may, within its sole discretion, accept or decline an appeal of a final adverse membership action in all other cases which do not meet the criteria above but which present issues of importance to Civil Air Patrol, the resolution of which will benefit the organization.

If presents issues of important to CAP....they may look at it.  You are right I can't think of anything off hand where the MARB would think that I fired my admin officer would be of imporatnt to CAP....but the MARB my disagree and act if they so choose.

At least that is how I read the regulation.  It probably will never happen....but the reg allows for it.  And in the case of Capt Benoit they did act outside the basic letter of the regulation and look at the ES qualification issue.

And I disagree with you wanting higher HQ getting involved.  I think Group and Wing should be involved in staff selections.  It is their program.  If your unit level officers are not trained or can'f/won't do their job they should be able to force a change if a squadron CC won't or can't do it.

[Eclipse]

And I disagree with you wanting higher HQ getting involved.  I think Group and Wing should be involved in staff selections.  It is their program.  If your unit level officers are not trained or can'f/won't do their job they should be able to force a change if a squadron CC won't or can't do it.

The change then should be of the Squadron CC, not the staff officers below that level.

I expect and appreciate my next level CC holding my feet to the fire if my programs don't meet the minimums (at the least), but appointing my staff officers is micro-management.

[RiverAux]

If I'm the squadron ES officer and working on my ES specialty track and the squadron commander relieves me of that position, it certainly is going to have an adverse impact on my CAP career since it would eliminate my ability to fulfill the specialty track requirements.  And if that same commander didn't want to appoint me to another position I would essentially be frozen at my current rank forever.  Seems like something I'd have a problem with. 

[lordmonar]

And I disagree with you wanting higher HQ getting involved.  I think Group and Wing should be involved in staff selections.  It is their program.  If your unit level officers are not trained or can'f/won't do their job they should be able to force a change if a squadron CC won't or can't do it.

The change then should be of the Squadron CC, not the staff officers below that level.

I expect and appreciate my next level CC holding my feet to the fire if my programs don't meet the minimums (at the least), but appointing my staff officers is micro-management.

One leads to the other.  Yes allowing wing to appoint staff officer is micro-management....but if you strip them of any input you end up with they do not even have the ability to remove an ineffectual commander.

It is a balancing act.  We give commanders power to appoint their staff but retain the ability to force changes where needed.

[Eclipse]

If I'm the squadron ES officer and working on my ES specialty track and the squadron commander relieves me of that position, it certainly is going to have an adverse impact on my CAP career since it would eliminate my ability to fulfill the specialty track requirements.  And if that same commander didn't want to appoint me to another position I would essentially be frozen at my current rank forever.  Seems like something I'd have a problem with.

Agreed, but if you can't work and play well with others, or are adversarial regarding the CC's plans, your personal CAP is going to feel the pain.

[lordmonar]

If I'm the squadron ES officer and working on my ES specialty track and the squadron commander relieves me of that position, it certainly is going to have an adverse impact on my CAP career since it would eliminate my ability to fulfill the specialty track requirements.  And if that same commander didn't want to appoint me to another position I would essentially be frozen at my current rank forever.  Seems like something I'd have a problem with.

Agreed, but if you can't work and play well with others, or are adversarial regarding the CC's plans, your personal CAP is going to feel the pain.

Hence the reason for an appeal system.

If ES officer Jones is appointed and dismissed solely on the whims of his commander...he has a route to appeal....via his chain of command up to the MARB.

If ES officer Jones is dismissed because he is no good then they system corrects itself. 

The MARB is there to ensure they system works.  It forces commanders to have valid reasons before they do anything that could be seen as an "adverse action".

IIRC the NB awhile back wanted to put all adverse actions into one regulation.  Everthing from 2bs to demotions, to grounding pilots, removal from command, staff postions, suspentions and ES qualifications.

As usuall we have not seen anything about this.

[FW]

If I'm the squadron ES officer and working on my ES specialty track and the squadron commander relieves me of that position, it certainly is going to have an adverse impact on my CAP career since it would eliminate my ability to fulfill the specialty track requirements.  And if that same commander didn't want to appoint me to another position I would essentially be frozen at my current rank forever.  Seems like something I'd have a problem with. 

The MARB would not generally look at such an issue as it is not defined as an "adverse membership action" however, if you were terminated from membership because you no longer had a "job" in CAP, the MARB may look at such an issue as part of the termination; it may reinstate you as the squadron ES officer as it reinstates your membership.  Yes, the MARB does have the authority.  "We" do use "judicial restraint" however, there may come a time in the future....

[FW]

Hence the reason for an appeal system.

...he has a route to appeal....via his chain of command up to the MARB.

A member does NOT go through the chain of command to the MARB. 
The MARB is completely outside the chain of command.  It lets a member who feels unjustly treated to appeal without worrying about delays or unjust treatment (after all other methods are used).  I think the current regulation is pretty clear on the subject.

[lordmonar]

Hence the reason for an appeal system.

...he has a route to appeal....via his chain of command up to the MARB.

A member does NOT go through the chain of command to the MARB. 
The MARB is completely outside the chain of command.  It lets a member who feels unjustly treated to appeal without worrying about delays or unjust treatment (after all other methods are used).  I think the current regulation is pretty clear on the subject.

The MARB will only look at issues where normal procedures have been exhaulsted.

So if I got kicked out of my unit staff job...I would to go my CC, then up the chain.  If I did not get satisfaction I could appeal to the MARB directly.

If I got shot down by my Group CC and went VFR direct to the MARB they should/could kick it back because I have not  exhaulsted my normal adminstrative options.

[Eclipse]

If I got shot down by my Group CC and went VFR direct to the MARB they should/could kick it back because I have not  exhaulsted my normal adminstrative options.

+1

[FW]

Patrick, what part of my last few posts are not registering?  The MARB will not hear a "simple" case of removal of a staff position. It is not an "adverse action" as defined in CAPR 35-8.  You have no appeal at any level; as this is dependant only at the discresion of the commander who appointed you.  We (the MARB) would only consider your removal from a staff position if it also was part of a termination proceding. 
For example; your squadron commander 2b'd you.  The group/cc makes the final decision.  You may then go to the MARB for redress if you feel the 2b was processed because of retaliation, lack of due process or a material breach of following the regs. 
Or say the wing commander demoted you from major to captain. You would, appeal directly to the MARB for redress for the same reasons. 
As I said preveiously, the regulation is very clear on the process.  The MARB has latitude but, it's limitations are well spelled out. 
PM me if you want more detailed explanations.  I doubt anyone else is that interested.....

[Eclipse]

Um...I'm thinking you guys both said the same thing...

[FW]

Exactly.  I'm quite used to no one listening to me.....

[CAPC/officer125]

Thank you for all your comments. I have been advised by the person that told me to not comment any more on this matter. Could a mod lock and/or delete this thread?