Sabbath

[Daniel]

I've always wondered why some CAP activities take place on sunday and how that effects Abrahamic religions. (Jews, and Christians)

"It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." - Exodus 31:17

I know CAP isn't really work but its an activity and hardly rest, I'm a Christian myself and always wondered that. 

[Hawk200]

Abrahamic religions?

[Daniel]

Abrahamic religions?

Yes, Religons that believe in the prophet Arbaham.

[Pylon]

CAP activities take place on days that make sense for CAP.  Members come from a variety of religious backgrounds and from no religious background at all.   I've had squadron members who faithfully observe the sabbath on either Saturdays or Sundays, and in both cases these people were able to participate actively in CAP and uphold their religious convictions.  That's plenty evidence for me that we don't need to cater to any one particular (or all) religious observance as an organization.

[Flying Pig]

Or do you mean religions that attend church on Sunday? I would say its between you and God or your church.  CAP has activities on the weekends to accommodate work schedules, not for any religious reasons.

[Daniel]

CAP activities take place on days that make sense for CAP.  Members come from a variety of religious backgrounds and from no religious background at all.   I've had squadron members who observe the sabbath on either Saturdays or Sundays, and in both cases these people were able to participate actively in CAP and uphold their religious convictions.

8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday

[SarDragon]

8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday

Your point?

These activities are at typical times, based on availability of participants, leaders, and in some cases, transportation.

[Flying Pig]

Again, CAP does it because thats when most members, cadets and seniors can attend.  It has nothing to do with the days people attend church.

[Daniel]

8th CLS (Cadet Leadership School) - Friday-Sunday
1ctg (encampment) - Sunday-saturday

Your point?

These activities are at typical times, based on availability of participants, leaders, and in some cases, transportation.

I'm not saying CAP chooses these days because we attend church on them (saturday/sunday)

I'm speaking that CAP does activities on days when theres a religious conflict

[NCRblues]

Well, they key is we're all volunteers, so you do not have to show up. Simple isn't?

[wuzafuzz]

Search the net for discussions about observing the Sabbath.  In addition to different beliefs about which day is the Sabbath, you'll also find New Testament references to justifications for no longer observing the Sabbath.  Obviously not everyone subscribes to the New Testament.  Instead of taking sides it is best for CAP to stay away from such issues.  Each member makes their own choices about which activities they participate in.

[Flying Pig]

Darn!  Where was Daniel when I got stuck on Firewatch in the Corps on Sundays???

[Daniel]

Well-- I'm just saying at encampment (which I think I got the days wrong, I think it was Friday-the next saturday)
I remember waking up and not even being able to cross myself much less pull out a bible and read abit as there was too much to be done

[Pylon]

Well-- I'm just saying at encampment (which I think I got the days wrong, I think it was Friday-the next saturday)
I remember waking up and not even being able to cross myself much less pull out a bible and read abit as there was too much to be done

I simply don't believe that.  I don't believe for a minute that if you had made known your wishes to perform or go to some sort of religious observation, that it wouldn't have been accommodated.   I also don't believe that, should you have wished to have taken some time to read a bible or pray, that your flight staff wouldn't have accommodated.  Furthermore, I've never seen an encampment where cadets didn't have personal time which they could use as each individual saw fit.

I have been to encampments from New York to Hawaii, and have always seen Chaplains on staff.  I have always seen cadets who desired given the appropriate time away from the activity and driven by SMs to Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish services.  When I was the only person of my particular religious persuasion as a cadet at Flight Academy in Virginia, back in the day, I had a SM drive me all the way to the next town to attend services.   I had a very faithful Orthodox Jewish cadet in my flight when I was an encampment TAC officer, and even he had no problems meeting the encampment standards and passing while taking off the appropriate times to meet his religious requirements.

If you make your desires known, CAP will be pretty accommodating.  So let's not start rumors that Civil Air Patrol is so hard on our cadets that we don't give religious cadets even so much as a few free seconds to worship on their sabbath, because that would be categorically untrue.

[Daniel]

Well, that's the thing I'm heavily passive, I didn't make a sound. I had only about ten minutes personal time in the morning and 30 a night. What I'm more talking is that part of my religon always was very bold and CAP had activities on Sunday. Also, I wasn't putting anyone on trail, and there will be no ordeal. I just was interested in policies which is what CAPtalk if for. I didn't know I could ask for time for religious observation

[davedove]

Well, that's the thing I'm heavily passive, I didn't make a sound. I had only about ten minutes personal time in the morning and 30 a night. What I'm more talking is that part of my religon always was very bold and CAP had activities on Sunday. Also, I wasn't putting anyone on trail, and there will be no ordeal. I just was interested in policies which is what CAPtalk if for. I didn't know I could ask for time for religious observation

Well, according to your signature block, you're an NCO.  You should be speaking up, both for your needs and the needs of those under you.  If you don't ask questions, you won't learn the answers.  There's nothing wrong with coming on CAP Talk and asking, but you should be making the same questions of your chain of command.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Our Spring Encampment is spread over two weekends, Fri-Sun x 2.

The second Sunday we aren't there long enough before pass and review for church. The first week, those who wish to go to church/services are given the chance to do so. If we are short on time, then a chaplain will lead a small ceremony.

I'm not religious, so it never concerned me, but out of some 100 participants, I don't think more than 20 went any given year. Same for weekend activities, most people don't go to Church weekly, and if they do, sometimes they choose CAP over services.

[jimmydeanno]

Encampment Commanders, activity directors, etc are supposed to provide reasonable accommodations for those attending their activities including religious observation.  Part of the reason there is the "complete 80% of an activity is specifically for these types of reasons.

For example, Orthodox Jews can't use cars on the Sabbath, which sometimes interferes with their abilities to arrive at encampments, activities on the designated starting day. 

Also, I've never been to an encampment or other activity (COS, RCLS, ALS, etc) which didn't provide for religious accommodations, especially on Sunday mornings.  On Saturday night the members were briefed as to what services were being held and where.  They were also told that if they needed to go somewhere else (Temple, Russian Orthodox, Mosque, etc) that reasonable accommodations would be made.

The last encampment I attended had a Muslim cadet who needed to pray multiple times a day.  It wasn't a problem.  He noted his religious needs, the staff worked out accommodations.

Smaller activities, however, usually don't have the time to take half of their day to accommodate those types of needs because the time span is too short and the training would be able to get done.  In those cases though, they're usually local and you have a better option of not going.

Reasonable accommodations are met, but realistically, you'd probably only have 3-4 days a year that weren't considered to be sacred days by some religion in the world.

If you need/want to worship, just let your staff know at these events - they will accommodate (reasonably).

[Al Sayre]

The reason we have activities on Saturday and Sunday has almost nothing to do with religion directly.  Indirectly, because of our Judeo-Christian Heritage our normal work week in the USA is Monday-Friday.

The simple fact is that most people in America work for a living, and most of them work Monday through Friday.  That means there is a good chance if the activities were scheduled during the week instead of on the weekend, the activity director and most of the participants would be unable to attend.  This isn't going to change until CAP starts paying us a salary, people have to feed their families.

[isuhawkeye]

When I was actively helping to schedule weekend training we learned how important faith is to the volunteers.  To honor these needs we made local church services available to all participants, and when chaplains were available we rented the post chapel and services were conducted.  We did our best, but there was nothing we could do if participants did not make their needs known.