encampment size

[notaNCO forever]

  I was just wondering what everyone thought the ideal size of an encampment should be. Personally unless their is a very experienced staff it really shouldn't exceed a 100 basics. That's just my opinion from experience not what I think should necessarily be the size.

[ol'fido]

Unfortunately, most encampments are limited by space avavailable at the facilities. Summer encampment in Illinois is usually limited to 172 spaces for all cadets at our current facility(Camp Lincoln). But your encampment could be much larger if you have enough senior staff and enough experienced cadet and senior staff members. Start out small and build until you have an experienced cadre that can handle the numbers. But like I said at first, your usual limiting factor is logistics.

[flyguy06]

An Ideal size for me would be every cadet in your WIng

[IceNine]

The ideal size for an encampment is guided entirely by space constraints and staffing.

Additionally, time constraints for getting everyone the same experience can limit the feasible size of an encampment.  There are few hundred other factors but each encampment is going to be completely different.

[RedFox24]

(My)nTop 5 reasons on how basic encampment size will be determined:  1:  Host facility, the room they have is what you have to work with, 2.  Senior Staff experience and availability, 3.  Cadet Staff experience and availability, 4.  Time of year when it is held, and 5.  Location, Location, Location. 

If all you get is 150 beds, then that is all you can fill.  If you don't have experienced senior staff and cadet staff and the number of staff to adequately supervise and manage the encampment, then you have to cut the number participants back.  If it is held when it it conflicts with another activity, holiday or what ever, then you become a second choice and cadets don't come.  Location, well that speaks for itself.

I have been to Type B encampments held in hangers of the local airport to Type A encampments held in some pretty neat and interesting military facilities.  Size ranged from less than 50 basics to over 200.  of those 15 or more encampments, Logistics, staff, time of year and location had more influence over size than anything.

[Ned]

I'm less concerned with maximum sizes, than minimums.

It has been my experience that small encampments (say less than 50 basics) are a fundamentally different experience than larger encampments. 

What do you think?

[ZigZag911]

Smallest one I recall was around 80 basics...simply a low response year, no special reason for it ...there was a somewhat different feel to it than 200 plus basics.

Pro was that individuals got more attention in training, classes, fewer transportation/logistics headaches, and so forth.

Cons: less budget, smaller senior staff (ours was always budget driven -- back in the 1980s my wing did not charge the seniors to serve)

[RedFox24]

I'm less concerned with maximum sizes, than minimums.

It has been my experience that small encampments (say less than 50 basics) are a fundamentally different experience than larger encampments. 

What do you think?

The two best encampments I attended as a cadet, one weekend (B) encampment in Illinois and one week long (A) in Mississippi were both right at 50 basic cadets.  Great staff, both senior and cadet who made the encampment a very good learning experience.  Worst encampment, well combined weeklong encampment of about 200 cadets.  It sucked.

That was as a cadet, as a senior and staff member, the 5 reasons I listed seem to be pretty much how it shakes out anymore.  If you build quality into the program, then the quanity will come and max out your space. 

[PA Guy]

I agree with Ned.  There is a different feel/dynamic with a large well run encampment. The small encampments I have attended were never able to duplicate the energy of the large encampments.

[flyguy06]

I'm less concerned with maximum sizes, than minimums.

It has been my experience that small encampments (say less than 50 basics) are a fundamentally different experience than larger encampments. 

What do you think?

I agree. small encampments are definantly a different feel. a 7 cadet flight versus a 15 cadet flight can make a big difference on the leadership development

[RedFox24]

I'm less concerned with maximum sizes, than minimums.

It has been my experience that small encampments (say less than 50 basics) are a fundamentally different experience than larger encampments. 

What do you think?

I agree. small encampments are definantly a different feel. a 7 cadet flight versus a 15 cadet flight can make a big difference on the leadership development

If you only have 7 cadets in flight, then you have to many flights..............  This seems like the Frank Burns encampment:  I am the cadet commander, your the cadet squadron commander, your the cadet flight commander ,your the cadet FLT Sgt and err...........you cadet, your the flight.

[ol'fido]

 ^^^     Little Grassy Flashback. Strange, the only thing that saved us from that stupidity was a tornado.

[RedFox24]

^^^     Little Grassy Flashback. Strange, the only thing that saved us from that stupidity was a tornado.

True!  And my view of ROTC has been pretty low ever sense that Type B. 

[ol'fido]

Your preachin' to the choir, brother!!

[flyguy06]

I'm less concerned with maximum sizes, than minimums.

It has been my experience that small encampments (say less than 50 basics) are a fundamentally different experience than larger encampments. 

What do you think?

I agree. small encampments are definantly a different feel. a 7 cadet flight versus a 15 cadet flight can make a big difference on the leadership development

If you only have 7 cadets in flight, then you have to many flights..............  This seems like the Frank Burns encampment:  I am the cadet commander, your the cadet squadron commander, your the cadet flight commander ,your the cadet FLT Sgt and err...........you cadet, your the flight.

I was just using a number. I would never have an encampment with a 7 cadet flight.

[Rotorhead]

An Ideal size for me would be every cadet in your WIng

800+?

Where would you hold it? How would you find enough staff? Facilities?

That would be unmanageable.

[Grumpy]

An Ideal size for me would be every cadet in your WIng

800+?

Where would you hold it? How would you find enough staff? Facilities?

That would be unmanageable.

CAWG has 1356 cadets.  Hmm, every cadet in the wing?  Anybody have a vacant base laying around some place? 

[ricks]

An Ideal size for me would be every cadet in your WIng

800+?

Where would you hold it? How would you find enough staff? Facilities?

That would be unmanageable.

CAWG has 1356 cadets.  Hmm, every cadet in the wing?  Anybody have a vacant base laying around some place? 

Fort Ord comes to mind.

[Ned]

CAWG has 1356 cadets.  Hmm, every cadet in the wing?  Anybody have a vacant base laying around some place? 

One of the best aspects of the ACA is that they create an expectation that everybody goes to encampment/annual training each summer.

For the majority of our cadets, we tend to treat encampment as a "one time check box" for the Mitchell.

And that's a shame.


BTW, while there could easily be room for a "all boots on deck" CAWG encampment at a places like MCRD San Diego or Camp Pendleton, there is nothing that says we couldn't do it in 100 GP Large tents on Vandenberg AFB.  There's plenty of room.

Wouldn't that be fun?

Ned Lee

[Grumpy]

Actually, I think it would be great.  Can you immagine the size of the staff and logistics.support troops involved?
I doubt we could feed them using the system we now use.  AF would have step up to the plate.

[Cecil DP]

CAWG has 1356 cadets.  Hmm, every cadet in the wing?  Anybody have a vacant base laying around some place? 

One of the best aspects of the ACA is that they create an expectation that everybody goes to encampment/annual training each summer.

For the majority of our cadets, we tend to treat encampment as a "one time check box" for the Mitchell.

And that's a shame.


BTW, while there could easily be room for a "all boots on deck" CAWG encampment at a places like MCRD San Diego or Camp Pendleton, there is nothing that says we couldn't do it in 100 GP Large tents on Vandenberg AFB.  There's plenty of room.

Wouldn't that be fun?

Ned Lee

You'd spend half your time erecting and pulling down tents. Not to mention folding and cleaning. The safety report would list at least 10 incidents of sledge hammer dings to individuals, both cadet and senior

[jimmydeanno]

The encampment that I was C/CC of, we had a two day long bivouac.  We used 3 GP Large Tents.

It took each squadron approximately 30 minutes to set theirs up.  It worked out to be a pretty good leadership/teamwork exercise.  They worked out great and didn't take half the week to set up.

SIDEBAR - GP Large Tent
18'X52'

[BillB]

Due to USAF downsizing, there isn't an Air Force Base in Florida that can handle a 300 cadet week long encampment. The barracks facilities are fully utilized by AD personnel.

[Grumpy]

Due to USAF downsizing, there isn't an Air Force Base in Florida that can handle a 300 cadet week long encampment. The barracks facilities are fully utilized by AD personnel.

CAWG uses the Army National Guard facility in San Luis Obispo.  We average 300+ cadets every year and it works out great.

[PHall]

Due to USAF downsizing, there isn't an Air Force Base in Florida that can handle a 300 cadet week long encampment. The barracks facilities are fully utilized by AD personnel.

CAWG uses the Army National Guard facility in San Luis Obispo.  We average 300+ cadets every year and it works out great.

Except it takes me an extra day to draw the buildings and two days to turn them back in.
I didn't finish clearing the post for encampment until 1330 Sunday.

But I did get two extra zeros on my CAP pay check though.

[Eclipse]

But I did get two extra zeros on my CAP pay check though.

Sadly that was before the BRAC'ing and force reductions.  These days you'd probably only get one extra zero, or maybe some points towards CAP retirement benefits.   

[PHall]

But I did get two extra zeros on my CAP pay check though.

Sadly that was before the BRAC'ing and force reductions.  These days you'd probably only get one extra zero, or maybe some points towards CAP retirement benefits.   

No, that was last month.

[Grumpy]

"Except it takes me an extra day to draw the buildings and two days to turn them back in.
I didn't finish clearing the post for encampment until 1330 Sunday.

But I did get two extra zeros on my CAP pay check though."

Phil,

You deserve every zero you get.     The good news is that the cadets benefit from your efforts.

[jeancalvinus]

I would like to see a large encampment tried with a cadre of senior members and active duty air force. not sure they would fund that on the AF side, but with the right facility it could be done, with around 500-800 cadets. do a port/ starboard approach to the training day, and provide (mandatory) cadet staff/ senior member training for 2 days before. Among other things, it would provide a sight many cadets (those who do not go on to military service) would never see again: a large formation (I have been in far larger, one time over 17,000, but it would still seem large to them), and the chance to see what larger scale training is like.

Logistics and planning would take a real time sacrifice for quite a few....but i would still like to see it once. I think this question has already been answered, but what s the largest encampment folks have seen?

[Ned]

I would like to see a large encampment tried with a cadre of senior members and active duty air force. not sure they would fund that on the AF side, but with the right facility it could be done, with around 500-800 cadets. do a port/ starboard approach to the training day, and provide (mandatory) cadet staff/ senior member training for 2 days before.

We have done National encampments in the fairly recent past, and several Regions do regional encampments.  But the usual show stopper is transportation costs for cadets.  If the encampment is not in your home state, then airline or extremely long auto commute costs are more than most cadets (and their families) can pay.

I also agree that Big Blue probably doesn't have several dozen trainers to loan us, and probably doesn't have funding to transport and subsist them in any event.

That's one of the reasons the CP is such a bargain for the AF when compared to their AFJROTC.  If we were to use AF funding to transport our cadets to the encampment, and then pay several dozen AF cadre to train and support the encampment, it would likely occur to a staff officer that they really don't need CAP to be part of that plan.  They could just use their existing JROTC cadre and logistics support.

Then where would we be?

And what is port/starboard training?

[jimmydeanno]

And what is port/starboard training?

Split training day.  Group A does something different in the morning than Group B.  In the afternoon they switch. [I think]

[jeancalvinus]

precisely!

[Ozzy]

Yep well over the past three years I've been to four encampments, loving all of them and seeing differences in all of them.

The first three were in NY, 2007 - 2008 - 2009. For all of them we had about 125 inflight cadets, the max the base can hold (We also had about 30+ waitlisted), about 50 cadet staff (With about 30 waitlisted too), and plenty of seniors to go around as needed. While the sizes of them were fairly the same, each encampment was unique due to the mood of the cadet staff. While each year there is a bunch of new staff, there is also quite a few staff that come back again and again, and because of this, I would rate NY staff as extremely experienced due to the fact that the encampment has been about 90% cadet run for the past 12 years or so now. The fourth encampment I've done was CT's 2009 encampment. Now that was very different then NY's. While CT had about 100 inflights, there was a lot less staff, both cadet and senior. Actually about 30-40% of the cadet staff was from NY!

Anyways from my experience, its the staff that sets the tone for encampment, not the number of inflights. If the staff does what its suppose to and then some, the encampment is going to run great and be memorable in a good way, but if the staff doesn't, then the inflights aren't going to get 'that' experience at their encampment.

[Earhart1971]

Due to USAF downsizing, there isn't an Air Force Base in Florida that can handle a 300 cadet week long encampment. The barracks facilities are fully utilized by AD personnel.

In the Florida Wing of OLD, 1974 we had an Encampment at Eglin AFB, several hundred Cadets. The problem now is the Air Force does not have barracks, they have apartments for the enlisted ranks.

Type B weekend Encampments we could turn out 500 to 700 Cadets. That was the 70s, Florida Wing had 4000 Cadets. Today we have 1300 maybe.

We are up to $175 for Winter Encampment, and that is the early registration discount, goes up from there.