INWG has the biggest....

[davidsinn]

...Squadron in CAP: Anderson Preparatory Academy in Indy.
pdf Last paragraph of the first page.  :clap:

[Eclipse]

[Type the company address]

That's a catchy tag line!

[BillB]

Eclipse.....cut them some slack.  They just forgot how to spell CAP

[davidsinn]

Ya know I never even noticed that. I think I'll email TFO Caplan about that.

[Spike]

How many??

Great that it says it is the largest......but We want Numbers here!

Is it a SEP??  Is it an After School Program, what is it.

[jimmydeanno]

GLR-IN-803:

329 Cadet Members
0 Cadets with Wright Brothers
51 Cadets with O'Flights
2 Cadets with Encampment
2 Seniors with TLC

Last year Cadet Members: 120

[davidsinn]

How many??

Great that it says it is the largest......but We want Numbers here!

Is it a SEP??  Is it an After School Program, what is it.

Jimmydeano grabbed the numbers. It is a military school that uses the CAP curriculum instead of JROTC. I'm not familiar with SEP so it may be that.

[Airrace]

GLR-IN-803:

329 Cadet Members
0 Cadets with Wright Brothers
51 Cadets with O'Flights
2 Cadets with Encampment
2 Seniors with TLC

Last year Cadet Members: 120

Don't they need more senior members to supervise the cadets?

[jimmydeanno]

That number is just the Seniors who have completed TLC.

[DC]

How much do they do with CAP outside of their school?

[Spike]

Unfortunately some may argue that military schools with a CAP curriculum are in fact, not a Squadron.  They may use the same terminology, but when every Cadet there is forced to be in CAP, just for attending, that is not a Squadron.

[rebowman]

In my own opinion, school programs should have their own separate statistics.  What I mean is, it is not fair for programs such as this to be considered the biggest.   These school programs should only be compared to other school programs.

[Stonewall]

In my own opinion, school programs should have their own separate statistics.  What I mean is, it is not fair for programs such as this to be considered the biggest.   These school programs should only be compared to other school programs.

Concur.

In DC Wing when the Middle School Initiative first appeared, we heard all this bragging about size and numbers.  Yet the school "squadron" had little resemblence to that of a real squadron.  Never once saw them at weekend activities and never saw them participate in ES activities.  Who cares if they have 100, 200, 300 cadets; if they simply show up to school in CAP uniforms and conduct themselves similar to a JROTC program, then they're JROTC with a CAP theme.

[Spike]

Stonewall....I agree. 

Lets keep SEP/ School Programs statistically separate from regular Squadrons.  I may not have the number of Cadet in my Squadron even close to a School Squadron but I have many more activities and my Cadet actually serve the community.  I also have to recruit, where as the school just offers it as a "credit" class.  Not fair in my opinion.

Having said that, I have a problem with school programs altogether.  When (and if) they show up to Wing or Joint activities, they have an "air about them" that makes them stand apart from other Cadets.  I have a Squadron that is down the street from a School Based Program (1 class a week, and after school every Wednesday) and it really hurt my numbers at the beginning.  We are in the process of getting the Wing Commander to order the School Cadets to attend our meetings instead of after school. 

There is more to CAP than sitting in a classroom each week, taking tests and getting promoted.  I know of no SEP/ School program that does ES or is called out on missions. 

They should have separate charters and not be counted among the rest of us "regulars".

[Flying Pig]

So really, its JROTC that uses the CAP structure?

[Spike]

So really, its JROTC that uses the CAP structure?

I find that schools are more welcoming to CAP (as an Aerospace oriented program) as opposed to a military driven program by one of the Uniformed Services. 

So, yes.....JROTC disguised as a "Aerospace, character developing, CAP Program".

[Ned]

There is only one Cadet Program.

Some of our units are school-based, most are organized in traditional squadrons.

But the program is the same.  Same standards for promotion, same time-in-grade requirements, same textbooks, same encampments, same everything.

It would be particularly unhelpful for us to begin distinguishing between school-based and traditional squadrons because it quickly degrades into a debate about "real squadrons" vs. "school units"; or simply "us" versus "them."

For no real reason than to make someone feel better on the pecking order.

It can't really be very surprising that a school unit might be one of our "largest units."  That is kinda inherent in having a school program.

But whether a given unit is large or small is largely irrelevant.  What should count is the quality of the training available to the troops, and ultimately the quality of the troops themselves.

I imagine JROTC has the same sort of issues.  Undoubtedly some JROTC units are going to be larger than others, based largely on the size of the high school in which it is based.  But each has a job to do, and the standards are ultimately the same nationwide.

[jimmydeanno]

Ned,

Not trying to start a fight, but I have a real interest here...

Is there a desire to try and convert the CAP cadet program into a school based program versus a community based one?

It does make one wonder why a cadet would choose to participate in the community based version in their local area if there is a school one that they can get school credit for.

There are quite a few obvious benefits for NHQ if they were to do this (paid school staff, permanent facilities, etc). 

[cnitas]

Is anyone else concerned that with so many cadets, none have a Wright Brothers award and only 2 have encampment?

Big...yes.
Administering the cadet program properly?  Maybe not.

[Flying Pig]

So in a school based program, do the teachers become Senior Members?

[RiverAux]

Big proposal in the NB agenda to reduce the time in grade for school programs under the theory that they put more time in quicker than traditional squadrons. 

[Eclipse]

Big proposal in the NB agenda to reduce the time in grade for school programs under the theory that they put more time in quicker than traditional squadrons.

Which frankly makes an argument I agree with that these are not the same program, any more than any other sub-program which fundamentally changes the participation and recruiting paradigm.  Leaders at the corporate level are already indicating publicly they believe the SEP is "special".

You can't put this much concentration of membership in one place (in this case in excess of 50% in one building) and not expect concern over resource allocation, Wing attention, and fundamental execution.

The lack of encampment participation would concern me, because its a short-hand indication that this is an island program, however it needs to be considered that INWG has not had an encampment in-state for at least two years.

As to the agenda item, until someone does a with a comparison between the average time spent doing CAP activities and self-study for conventional cadets, vs. an SEP cadet, and makes sure to add weighting regarding outside activities, I'm not buying that SEP cadets are any "different" or "better" than any others.  Those of us with experience in Wing-, or Region-level cadet activities know the dangers of "island programs".

[jimmydeanno]

I suppose that would depend on which "traditional squadron" you were talking about.  From last Friday to this coming saturday I'll have cadets who will have accumulated 100 hours doing CAP stuff.  That is just routine activities, not large activities like encampment, etc. 

65 Hours participation in SAREX
6 hours participation in Satellite Tracking Station Tour
3 hours participation in CAC meeting
6 hours participation in fundraising event
14 hours participation in Glider orientation flights
2.5 hours squadron meeting

While we don't normally have that amount of time each week, our squadron offers the opportunity for at least 20 hours (on average) each week of CAP time should a cadet decide to participate.

I suppose I mean that there is plenty of opportunity for all of our cadets to put in as much time into CAP as they want to; between local, group, wing activities. 

If a school squadron has two classes a week for 2 hours, it doesn't necessarily mean that they put in more time than the community based cadet.  If anything, I'd argue that they don't put in as much time.

[Eclipse]

If a school squadron has two classes a week for 2 hours, it doesn't necessarily mean that they put in more time than the community based cadet.  If anything, I'd argue that they don't put in as much time.

+1

[Ned]

Is there a desire to try and convert the CAP cadet program into a school based program versus a community based one?

Absolutely not.  I have never heard of such a thing from either General Courter, Gen Chitwood, or Curt LaFond.  As in never, ever.

And it is certainly not my policy.

As I mentioned, there is only one cadet program.  Some cadets are in school programs, most are not.

There is indeed a proposal before the NB to reduce TiG for at least some school based programs.  You may notice that there were substantial "non-concurrances" from the staff.

If our national leadership approves this item (which I doubt, but it is certainly their choice to make), then for the first time there will be a substantive difference for the school-based cadets.

But there isn't now, and if the measure is not adopted there will be no change.

[Eclipse]

Sorry Ned, there's a big difference.

Who processes all the administrivia?  Volunteers after school, or school administration during school?  The minute people are able to get paid to do CAP work, the paradigm changes.

Would staff attending off-hours activities get paid leave from the district?

Or worse, are they going to start dumping hundreds of cadets into the system and expect the conventional units and staffers to absorb those numbers with no contribution?

If nothing else, the largest cadet unit in the state should also have the most seniors.  Otherwise they are going to either be an island, or an unfair resource drain.

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure it would be the worst thing in the world to have the school program run a little differently.  It is clear that school-based programs account for a greater and greater share of the overall cadet program and it might not make sense to run them exactly the same.  However, I don't think I agree with the current proposal, but I'm open to the concept of making some accommodations for school programs. 

[Johnny Yuma]

In my own opinion, school programs should have their own separate statistics.  What I mean is, it is not fair for programs such as this to be considered the biggest.   These school programs should only be compared to other school programs.

Concur.

In DC Wing when the Middle School Initiative first appeared, we heard all this bragging about size and numbers.  Yet the school "squadron" had little resemblence to that of a real squadron.  Never once saw them at weekend activities and never saw them participate in ES activities.  Who cares if they have 100, 200, 300 cadets; if they simply show up to school in CAP uniforms and conduct themselves similar to a JROTC program, then they're JROTC with a CAP theme.

More reason to make ES participation a part of the cadet program.

[Ned]

Sorry Ned, there's a big difference.

Who processes all the administrivia?  Volunteers after school, or school administration during school?  The minute people are able to get paid to do CAP work, the paradigm changes.

Probably a combination of both.  But I fail to see your point.  Whether the administrivia is accomplished by volunteers or school folks on the clock, the training and experience for the cadets should be largely the same.  I've heard a rumor that sometimes CAP folks who are also Guard/Reserve types have, on occasion, been on Annual Training status at encampment.  (I.e., got paid.)  I don't recall the world ending.

Or worse, are they going to start dumping hundreds of cadets into the system and expect the conventional units and staffers to absorb those numbers with no contribution?

Again. I'm not seeing the problem.  In an ideal world, school units would indeed send many cadets to things like encampments, NCO schools, etc.  What is the problem with that?  How is any different than any other CAP unit sending cadets to wing activities?

School program cadets pay the same fee for encampment as anyone else.  What's the problem?

If nothing else, the largest cadet unit in the state should also have the most seniors.  Otherwise they are going to either be an island, or an unfair resource drain.

I can only agree that any unit needs enough seniors and other volunteers to effectively supervise and administer the unit.  But even if they are relatively sparse, I'm not sure how that would negatively affect other units.

Ned Lee

[Major Carrales]

All depends on what you are willing to do.  We have a Flight of the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron affiliated with Memorial Middle School in Kingsville, Texas where I teach.

Those cadets cadet the same training as "reg'lars."  If you go FULL SCHOOL PROGRAM, it will be the same only differing in they they will received grades as in an elective class and a curriculum will be run.  Much like band and athletics, which practice after school, attend competitions and other development...the CAP unit would have ES activities, Leadership Schools and all the like.

[davidsinn]

Yes it's a necropost but I have numbers now. 

Anderson Preparatory currently has 334 cadets and  32 seniors. They have a delta of plus 163 total members since last December first. :clap:

They have more CADETS than any of the other three groups have members. Heck I think they have more cadets then some wings have members.

Also the legislative squadron has 178 members which is nearly the size of my group.

INWG has 715 cadets and 435 seniors.

[Spike]

^ Legislative Squadrons are no more a "squadron" than SEP units. 

You have put a large bulk of your membership into units that should not be counted amongst "regular" units.

Seriously, is this impressive?  I would have a HUGE Squadron too if I were to bribe my legislators with food once a month at a meeting in the capitol, or offer a class that looks good on High School Transcripts (that carry a grade of course). 

[John Bryan]

I think the school program is great. That said a school wide program like this where all the students are cadets can really build up an organizations numbers.

This unit has 334 cadets....INWG has 715 total cadets ...ie 47 % of INWG's cadets are from this one unit. When you add the seniors this unit makes up 370 of INWG's total 1354 members...ie the unit makes up 27% of the total membership of the wing.  In other words without this one unit INWG's total numbers would be 984 total members which would be a membership loss...but this unit gives them an 18% growth. Sadly 12 other (regular) units in the wing are not growing.

[Dracosbane]

I had an opportunity to attend a cadet training function at the APA in October.  I learned a few things about it.  The cadets are full CAP members, just as my unit's cadets are.  However, most of the cadets are young, i.e. sixth, seventh and eighth grade, but 9-12 attend the school as well.  This is the second "year" of the academy, and as such, there are few, if any cadet officers.  They are welcome to attend the meetings of the Anderson unit, which is separate, in order to see a "real" unit working.  Although I have no idea if any of them do.  Not all of the teachers at the school are officers, and a few are not CAP senior members at all, IIRC. 

There are also a few other factors about the students who attend the school, however I was involved in only a little of the conversation that I don't want to add speculation or hearsay as to the true workings of the school. 

I'll be attending another function there in January, hopefully I'll learn a little more about it then.  But yes, they have the largest cadet attendance of any CAP unit.

I believe all the information is correct, but I could be wrong.  YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I think the school program is great. That said a school wide program like this where all the students are cadets can really build up an organizations numbers.

This unit has 334 cadets....INWG has 715 total cadets ...ie 47 % of INWG's cadets are from this one unit. When you add the seniors this unit makes up 370 of INWG's total 1354 members...ie the unit makes up 27% of the total membership of the wing.  In other words without this one unit INWG's total numbers would be 984 total members which would be a membership loss...but this unit gives them an 18% growth. Sadly 12 other (regular) units in the wing are not growing.

How many of those cadets attended an encampment either in their first year, or at all?

How many participate in any way outside their school?

[RiverAux]

I think IN wing has been doing an excellent job in expanding the program and so long as all standards are maintained, should keep going in this vein. 

[Dracosbane]

There were several cadets (10-12) in attendance from two or three grades who attended the clinic I was at in Oct.  The one SM that chaperoned their group seems to want the cadets to participate in as many outside-the-unit activities as possible (even if this was one hosted at their school, it was not put on by them).

[Spike]

I think the school program is great. That said a school wide program like this where all the students are cadets can really build up an organizations numbers.

This unit has 334 cadets....INWG has 715 total cadets ...ie 47 % of INWG's cadets are from this one unit. When you add the seniors this unit makes up 370 of INWG's total 1354 members...ie the unit makes up 27% of the total membership of the wing.  In other words without this one unit INWG's total numbers would be 984 total members which would be a membership loss...but this unit gives them an 18% growth. Sadly 12 other (regular) units in the wing are not growing.

How many of those cadets attended an encampment either in their first year, or at all?

How many participate in any way outside their school?

How many are getting O-Flights?

What is the milestone percentage compared to the "local unit"?

Do the Students pay membership fees?  Buy uniforms and bling? 

And the questions can go on forever.  My point is the Squadron is not a Squadron, it is a school.  It needs to be counted in (and only in) the SEP.  To say it is the largest unit is misleading and deceptive. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Anderson Preparatory currently has 334 cadets and  32 seniors. They have a delta of plus 163 total members since last December first. :clap:

INWG has 715 cadets and 435 seniors.

Hm...that Aug 09 newsletter showed:

Senior Members: 617
Cadets: 684

Why the major drop in SM status?

And along with the other members...out of 300+ cadets to have only 2 that went to an encampment...

[davidsinn]

Anderson Preparatory currently has 334 cadets and  32 seniors. They have a delta of plus 163 total members since last December first. :clap:

INWG has 715 cadets and 435 seniors.

Hm...that Aug 09 newsletter showed:

Senior Members: 617
Cadets: 684

Why the major drop in SM status?

And along with the other members...out of 300+ cadets to have only 2 that went to an encampment...

There was actually an increase in the senior numbers but the newsletter didn't differentiate between the legislative and regular seniors. Add 178 pols plus 26 patrons and 000 people and you get another 204 "others" on top of the 435. I'd love to post the entire breakdown as it's pretty in depth but I was told it's operational data and not for public consumption. INWG is up in all categories except other which went down by two which could be explained by somebody going active from 000.

As to the lack of encampments at Anderson you need to remember it's a new program and INWG has not had an encampment in state in over 3 years. That will change with 2010. My own unit has only been able to get one cadet to encampment in three years and she went to two different ones.

[PA Guy]

^^^

Why the reluctance to attend encampment in one of the surrounding wings?  They all can't be that far away and it's not that uncommon for cadets to attend encampment out of their home wing.

[davidsinn]

^^^

Why the reluctance to attend encampment in one of the surrounding wings?  They all can't be that far away and it's not that uncommon for cadets to attend encampment out of their home wing.

Are you talking about my unit or the wing? For '07 the "official" encampment was in KY which is 8 hours from where I am my cadet and I went. In '08 and '09 it was IL. I was unable to attend either one do to work and the cadets I have now were not ready last year nor able to afford it this year.

[Spike]

I'd love to post the entire breakdown as it's pretty in depth but I was told it's operational data and not for public consumption.

Wow.  Secret membership numbers not for public release.  The Air Fore loves that.  CAP National HQ loves to hear that too.  That is bad program management.

You along with everyone else should know the capabilities.  You may have 300 Cadets who are not even attending meetings anymore.  You boost numbers and show off, but it really means nothing now. 

[davidsinn]

I'd love to post the entire breakdown as it's pretty in depth but I was told it's operational data and not for public consumption.

Wow.  Secret membership numbers not for public release.  The Air Fore loves that.  CAP National HQ loves to hear that too.  That is bad program management.

You along with everyone else should know the capabilities.  You may have 300 Cadets who are not even attending meetings anymore.  You boost numbers and show off, but it really means nothing now.

I don't like it either but when I asked permission to post the whole sheet I was told no and that future sheets would be marked FOUO. I don't make the rules I just follow them. Honestly I think by not allowing me to post them is just somebody (I honestly don't know who) playing secret squirrel.

Really all it is is a breakdown by unit and membership class with a comparison to last year on 1 Dec. Can anyone tell me how we track attendance as an organization? As far as I know we don't.

[PA Guy]

^^^

Why the reluctance to attend encampment in one of the surrounding wings?  They all can't be that far away and it's not that uncommon for cadets to attend encampment out of their home wing.

Are you talking about my unit or the wing? For '07 the "official" encampment was in KY which is 8 hours from where I am my cadet and I went. In '08 and '09 it was IL. I was unable to attend either one do to work and the cadets I have now were not ready last year nor able to afford it this year.

No, it was just  a question about the Wing in general.  While an 8 hr drive is a drag it isn't a big deal in many of the Western wings.  I just think it would behoove the Wing/CP to be creative and facilitate getting cadets to an encampment, any encampment.  Without an encampment they are behind the power curve when it comes to promotion, NCSAs and retention.  Van pools, scholarships anything to get those cadets to an encampment.

[davidsinn]

^^^

Why the reluctance to attend encampment in one of the surrounding wings?  They all can't be that far away and it's not that uncommon for cadets to attend encampment out of their home wing.

Are you talking about my unit or the wing? For '07 the "official" encampment was in KY which is 8 hours from where I am my cadet and I went. In '08 and '09 it was IL. I was unable to attend either one do to work and the cadets I have now were not ready last year nor able to afford it this year.

No, it was just  a question about the Wing in general.  While an 8 hr drive is a drag it isn't a big deal in many of the Western wings.  I just think it would behoove the Wing/CP to be creative and facilitate getting cadets to an encampment, any encampment.  Without an encampment they are behind the power curve when it comes to promotion, NCSAs and retention.  Van pools, scholarships anything to get those cadets to an encampment.

The 300+:2 was in reference to Anderson which grows at a rate of 150 per year and is only 2 years old.

Look at is this way in Sept 08 you had 150 brand new cadets. In Sept 09 you had those 150 plus a new 150 and only had one chance for encampment in the middle of that. Still 150:2 is not a good ratio. I have no clue how fast they are actually promoting so they could still be airmen potentially.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Doesn't really matter does it. If you have only had one cadet go to an encampment in 3 years, then am I to assume you have had no Mitchell Awards in that time as well?

Besides, cadets who don't get an encampment in 2 years are already past the minimum time it takes (18 months) to get to the Mitchell, so you are either looking at a C/CMSgt bottleneck, or 300 under-performing cadets, which just reflects a lack of substance in the program.

I've seen few good cadets get through the ranks up to C/2d Lt in less than two years, but it would still concern me that only 2 cadets out of half the wing's cadet members went to an encampment. Who is leading these kids? Are there any C/Officers involved, or are they just going over the Curry for about the fifth time now?

[Dracosbane]

I know not all of the cadets at APA are airmen.  But two months ago, most of the cadets I interacted with there were.  I do know the program is definitely different at a school than it is in a normal unit, but I'm not certain how exactly it's run.  I want to learn more personally, but I'd suggest that you consider the fact that with a relatively new program like this, it's going to take some time to get the cadets running through the program. 

Plus, you're going to have cadets who're not running through the normal CAP program at the same pace, especially this way, because you'd be promoting everybody all at once, and there'd be no leaders at one point, and there'd be no followers later.

[indygreg]

Thought I'd chime in on this since it is my daughter's school,  and I may be joining  as well. 
APA is a 2 year old charter school,  with currently grades 6-9.  Next year, they will add a 10th grade, and a grade a year until the school is 6-12. Each grade is limited to 80 students, broken into 4 20 student flights.  Last year, with the school just getting started, there wasn't a huge emphasis on outside CAP activities, mainly just getting the cadets up to speed.  This year, outside activities are getting more attention. There is an encampment scheduled in April which up to 80 cadets have been invited too attend, in order to increase the number of cadets in leadership positions.  They also participated in the INWG Cadet Olympics last fall.  I believe there is also an ES training weekend scheduled for the spring. As the school grows, the emphasis on outside activitoes will grow also, I'm sure   As far as grade, there are a few  2 year cadets that have reached T/Sgt, but most first year cadets are still airmen.  Overall, I have been very happy with the school.  Not only is my daughter getting an outstanding education, the experiences that she is getting in CAP will be invaluable in the years to come.

[flyboy53]

Boy, have things changed since I was a member of the Indiana Wing, 1972 to 77. I remember when the group structure there was abandoned due to lack of units/members. Anyway, you guys are mincing hairs. If a school program/squadron has that many members who cares whether they limit their program to certain areas.

AF JROTC used to be mostly academic and less on the operational side.

The bottom line here is think of the impact state wide that this unit has. They should be commended, not slammed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

What impact?

2 year cadets as C/TSgt when they can be working on their Earhart Awards?

2 cadets in 2 years that went to encampment?

Numbers mean NOTHING. CAP CP should have substance and growth to actually benefit the cadets.

[RedFox24]

^^^

Why the reluctance to attend encampment in one of the surrounding wings?  They all can't be that far away and it's not that uncommon for cadets to attend encampment out of their home wing.

Are you talking about my unit or the wing? For '07 the "official" encampment was in KY which is 8 hours from where I am my cadet and I went. In '08 and '09 it was IL. I was unable to attend either one do to work and the cadets I have now were not ready last year nor able to afford it this year.

We had scholarships in 08 and very few in 09 because of the economy.  2 cadets from IN did get assistance when they applied for it.  About 1/3 of the 172 cadets each year were from IN.  Price this year is the same as last two years $145.  Don't know about scholarships yet http://www.illinoiswingsummerencampment.com/  everyone is welcome!

Have been in contact with Capt Merrill about the IN Spring and Summer, Looks like they are planning a good one!