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12 Year Old C/CC

Started by Schmidty06, March 01, 2005, 01:22:34 AM

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airforcecolors

Ok, here is my opinion:

So there are two possible cases of younger cadets that are able to be a C/CC or Spaatz Cadet, this doesn't mean that every cadet should be able to promoted to an officer and be a C/CC if they are 12! It shouldnt be a yes or no, it should be decided by the Squadron Commander

On that note, I know of a 14 year old C/1st Lt, whos father is the squadron commander, and he is the C/CC. It seems all too obvious that he was given the position, because the kid doesnt know anything! But that is unavoidable if the squadron is being run by their family.
There are three kinds of people in this world...people that get things, people that watch others get things done, and people that wonder what just happened...WHICH ONE ARE YOU?

Matt

uummm... Kristie, don't you have school today???  ;D

But yes, you do have a good point, it is ultimately up to the squadron commander or desginee.  However, I also know of some instances where the opposite happened, where the cadet was ready to be promoted but was held back, which is the reverse of what you had pointed out.

I also concur with capchiro, there should be a more standardized CoC for encampments because there is the occasion where there is a more competant c/Maj than c/Col, but the Col simply gets the position OR is under the Maj which looks just plain weird.

However, any way you put it, there is possibilities of those being promoted at young ages and others being held back.  IN THEORY squadron commanders should have the experience and competency to make the correct decision, not saying all do, but all SHOULD.  As for the formal encampment CoC, once upon a time we had that, before I was a member, I like the idea, personally, but I'm not sure if it has the ability to come back.

Matt
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

#42
Quote from: airforcecolors on September 30, 2005, 05:34:05 PM
It shouldnt be a yes or no, it should be decided by the Squadron Commander

For the Spaatz at least cadets receive approval from the wing commander before the test may be administered.

Quote from: CAPR 52-162-10. THE SPAATZ EXAMS. Examinations for the General Carl A. Spaatz Award are ordered from national
headquarters and administered by the state director or deputy state director
a. Before being administered the Spaatz Award exams, the cadet must receive approval from the unit and wing
commander.
1) Cadets will submit their requests in the form of a memo or email that includes the following information:
full name, unit charter number, CAPID, home address, email address, telephone number(s), date of birth, date the Eaker
Award was earned, and indicate whether they are attempting the exam for the first, second, or third time. Approving
commanders will sign the memo or forward the email in-turn to endorse the request. If the wing commander approves
the request, the wing commander will forward the memo or email to the state director or deputy state director. Then,
the cadet may make an appointment with the state director or deputy state director to take the exam.
2) If the wing commander disapproves the cadet's request, then he or she must provide the cadet with a
written explanation for the decision within 30 days of receiving the cadet's request. Cadets may resubmit their requests
at a later date, or appeal the wing commander's decision to the respective region commander, who must uphold or
overturn the wing commander's decision in writing within 30 days of receiving the cadet's appeal. The region
commander's decision is final.
3) Before administering the exam, the state director or deputy state director verifies the requestor is a current
CAP cadet member, is under age 21, and has earned the Eaker Award.
b. The state director (or deputy state director) has the right to refuse to administer the examination if the
examinee's grooming and/or appearance do not meet CAP standards, or if the examinee's attitude is unacceptable on
the date of the exam.

MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

Quote from: airforcecolors on September 30, 2005, 05:34:05 PM
On that note, I know of a 14 year old C/1st Lt, whos father is the squadron commander, and he is the C/CC. It seems all too obvious that he was given the position, because the kid doesnt know anything! But that is unavoidable if the squadron is being run by their family.

I think this is a case of  appearances being everything... If you as a leader are allowed to give the appearance of impropriety... IMO, there is a problem, even if you as a leader say there isn't one.  IIRC there is a rule in the finance regulations that says that family members can't be signing the checks etc.  Why CAP doesn't have similar rules for other aspects of the program to prevent mom and pop operations within the organization is beyond me.
Mike Johnston

Horn229

Quote from: MIKE on September 30, 2005, 06:19:21 PM
MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

My CAC tried coming up with a plan of doing the same thing. But my main objection is, that it's supposed to be the Squadrons job to decide if someone is ready for a promotion. Having a Wing PRB for milestones, IMO, is crossing the line into micro-management. Now if the Sqdn CC is obviously promoting people to the Mitcell who shouldn't have even received the Arnold, then the DCP or Group CC should step in and give the CC a little smack down chat.

Now our CAC's focus is really on recruiting and retention, we don't seem to have any cadets to worry about speeding through the grades.  :D
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

MIKE

Quote from: Horn229 on October 01, 2005, 10:21:06 PM
Quote from: MIKE on September 30, 2005, 06:19:21 PM
MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

My CAC tried coming up with a plan of doing the same thing. But my main objection is, that it's supposed to be the Squadrons job to decide if someone is ready for a promotion. Having a Wing PRB for milestones, IMO, is crossing the line into micro-management. Now if the Sqdn CC is obviously promoting people to the Mitcell who shouldn't have even received the Arnold, then the DCP or Group CC should step in and give the CC a little smack down chat.

Now our CAC's focus is really on recruiting and retention, we don't seem to have any cadets to worry about speeding through the grades.  :D

I don't think ours was the result of a CAC proposal.  Our DCP was the one who told me about it... It seems from the way he pitched it to me that it was indeed an attempt from MAWG CP to impose some form of quality control on cadet promotions within the wing.... From my own personal experience, something does need to be done in this regard...  But I am skeptical as to whether or not these will result in marked improvement in the quality of our cadet officers and CP in general.  They haven't asked me to serve on a board.  ;)

Personally, I think it would have been beneficial to conduct a board for the WBA also... Start setting expectations early I say.

MAWG sort of did have a smack down chat with all the CCs a while ago in the form of a mandatory UCC... If you were a serving unit commander and didn't show up you were getting relieved, and some did IIRC.  I just hope they have another that I can go to sometime.  :)
Mike Johnston

Ford73Diesel

I used to be a member of this cadet' squadron. Needless to say he is one of the reasons I transferred (Joined GLR-OH-131 in 2002, transferrd to GLR-OH-236 in 2004, and recently transferred to GLR-OH-096) He does not have the expirence to be a C/CC. He puts a C/SrA that has no knowledge of drill over C/2d Lt's that do. When he was a C/2d Lt, he asked a C/Capt to salute him. stuff like that ect. that gives him a bad reputation. Overall he is not a bad kid. He did join under the six grade rule (homeschooled) and rank-cranked all the way to C/1st Lt,

footballrun21

If this cadet was in JROTC or Boy Scouts (or both) wouldn't that raise his grade faster?  How old do you have to be to be in JROTC/Boy Scouts?
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

arajca

You only get to 'fast track' if you are in JROTC, which is only available in some high schools.
The appropriate section of CAPR 52-16 says
Quote6-1. CAP POLICY FOR JROTC. The following policy reflects an expansion of the relationship between the CAP
Cadet Program and Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC) programs. The CAP Cadet Program and JROTC
organizations of the armed services (Air Force JROTC, Army JROTC, Navy JROTC, and Marine Corps JROTC) are
complementary and mutually supporting. CAP encourages support of JROTC through dual membership of CAP cadets
whenever possible.
a. JROTC cadets may be accelerated through the CAP Cadet Program when they meet the following requirements:
1) Two full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Mitchell Award.
2) Three full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Earhart Award.
3) Four full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Eaker Award.
b. All CAP requirements for each achievement and each milestone award (Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart,
Eaker and Spaatz) will be met under the supervision of CAP personnel. Milestone exams and achievement tests must
be taken and passed. All promotion requirements will be met, except that the minimum time in grade is reduced for
JROTC cadets, as described above. Cadets who have completed an AFJROTC summer leadership school may receive
CAP encampment credit if NHQ CAP/CP reviews the training syllabus and determines the AFJROTC activity met 80%
of the CAP encampment curricula described in chapter 5.
c. Squadron commanders, when submitting CAPFs 52-l, 52-2 or 52-3 for cadets credited with JROTC experience,
will attach a copy of the certification to the form. JROTC aerospace (ASI), military (MSI) or naval science instructors
(NSI) will certify 2, 3 or 4 years completion of JROTC. CAP Cadet Program credit is not authorized for less than 2
years of JROTC.
d. CAP cadets may wear the following awards earned through their JROTC participation:
1) CAP cadets are limited to wear any three JROTC ribbons on the CAP uniform (placements of JROTC
ribbons are found in CAPM 39-l, CAP Uniform Manual). No other JROTC specialty badges or devices are authorized
unless found in CAPM 39-1. JROTC aerospace (ASI), military (MSI), or naval science instructors (NSI) will certify
the authority to wear the JROTC ribbons.
2) Cadets enrolled in CAP and AFJROTC who use the same uniform for both activities may wear the CAP
wing patch on the right shoulder and the AFJROTC patch on the left shoulder (See CAPM 39-1). Other JROTC
patches are not authorized.

You'd need a minimum two years of JROTC to fast track to Mitchell, which means you'd be 15-16 years old.

Boy Scouts are not elligible to fast track.

footballrun21

Alright, but how could this be true?  Was this cadet the C/CC before of after the recuirements for testing were changed?  I knew 2 cadets that were twins (one boy, one girl) that were only 13 and were both 2nd Lts.  This was just last year, too.
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

BillB

That was possible when the 6th grade requirement was in effect. It would have been possible for an 11 or even 10 year old to be a cadet if in the 6th grade.  That avenue is no longer in effect, and the minimum age requirement is now in effect.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

John Bryan

Well you can still join under 12 if you belong to a school based unit and are 11 or whatever and in the 6th grade. The normal units have to wait for a kid to turn 12.

I think that the reason this type of story upsets people is it shows how age limits for membership or rank do not fit. Some young people can and should be cadet officers younger then others. Many feel we need to LIMIT the young and a story about a good young leader breaks that idea.

I have worked with this cadet. I was on the encampment staff during his basic year and he is a great cadet. I also was on staff at a NCSA his brother attended. By the way both did encampment and NCSA in 2003 and were good cadets.

Yes they are home school students and very bright youngmen. So he is smart, a good cadet, a growing leader, and young.....so explain why we need to limit him?

The youngest American to earn the Medal of Honor was 12 years old (Civil War).....again there is proof that age should not matter if you EARN something.

Respectfully,
John Bryan
INWG CAP
Spaatz #1262

schreiberboy

Quote from: Schmidty06 on March 01, 2005, 01:22:34 AM
In the March issue of CAP News in the Highlights section, there is a blurb on a cadet in Ohio who is 12 years old, a C/CC, and a C/1st Lt.  After reading this story and finding out about his track record as a cadet (all in the story, if you read it).  Something definately doesn't seem right about this.  Nothing against him, since it seems like he is pretty squared away, but this is one of the reason that there should, perhaps be some age restrictions on cadet ranks. 
I would agree with you......
I know at most military schools they regulate how high in rank you can go by what grade you are in.  A 10th grader cant be more than a platoon sgt....a 9th grader cant be more than a SSgt...and so on...and it really does work well.
In our CAP squadron, we choose who is in command, first, by rank, but secondly by who is most effective but maintains a good reputation.  Sometimes one guy who is an Amn in CAP (yet a First Sergeant in JROTC and therefore 16+ years old) may be more fit to be a flight sgt than a SrA in CAP who may be only 12.  A command voice can also be very important in stuff like that, and usually a 12 year old hasn't quite gotten that voice yet.
I'm not saying that a 12 year old CC is bad and I'm not underestimating the SC or the DCC, but sometimes someone with a lesser rank but more age/stature can be more effective.
c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy

mprokosch11

#52
I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but very recently (last few months) in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.
C/Capt Matthew A. Prokosch, CAP
New York Wing
Utica Cadet Squadron (NER-NY-162)

schreiberboy

Quote from: penguinmaster113 on July 11, 2006, 01:19:10 AM
I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.
i think she started when she was 10 1/2 before they changed the regs...
c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy

mprokosch11

That would help starting so early.
C/Capt Matthew A. Prokosch, CAP
New York Wing
Utica Cadet Squadron (NER-NY-162)

MIKE

Quote from: penguinmaster113 on July 11, 2006, 01:19:10 AM
How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years.
Joined under the old reg... She was 10 IIRC.

Quote from: penguinmaster113 on July 11, 2006, 01:19:10 AM
Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.

Some squadrons let you test every week until you pass, so cadets can promote at minimum Time in Grade.
Mike Johnston

Nathan

I have living proof in my wing that we need age restrictions. A fourteen year old C/Lt Col whose squadron is basically run by his parents. There's been some obviously fishy things about his promotion rates, and he definetely does NOT need to be a C/Lt Col right now...

It seems to me that officers promoted before they are ready are more of a danger to the program than not promoting younger guys when they are ready.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

SarDragon

Quote from: penguinmaster113 on July 11, 2006, 01:19:10 AM
I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but very recently (last few months) in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.

Did you read the WHOLE article? I think she's done a good job as a cadet. Yes, she started early, but it appears that she did all the work, along with other activities in school. The fact that her older brother has his Spaatz probably didn't hurt. (I'm not implying that she cheated, but she certainly benefited from any guidance he may have given her.) Let's just congratulate her, and wish her the best in her upcoming time in CAP. When you have your Spaatz, then you can be more critical.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ZigZag911

In my thirty plus years (the first handful as a cadet, and eventually a cadet officer), I've seen that neither age, IQ, or genetics really seem to determine who is a good officer (cadet OR senior)....it has a lot more to do with character.

Having said that, my observation has been that very young cadet officers often lack the maturity to handle the responsibilities of their grade and/or assigned position.

Here is a modest proposal to address the situation: cahnge time in grade requirement for cadet promotions to 3 months.

C/2 Lt would take a minimum of 2 years, C/Lt Col a minimum of 4 years....which would make Eaker/Spaatz cadets 15 at the very least.

It wouldn't be a hardship to the average cadet; most only advance 2 to 3 achievements annually as it is.

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.

schreiberboy

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 13, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.
c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy