Encampment Sleeping Arrangements

Started by captrncap, June 13, 2006, 06:05:08 PM

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captrncap

How do most encampments handle sleeping arrangements?

I know that 52-10 states in Sec 4 Para D states "Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets."

If there is only one Senior Member assigned to a cabin, how can you comply with this regulation?

Matt

To throw the question out: Where does it say you need a SM in the cabin?  Just says that SMs have to be present at the activity, not within the sleeping quarters.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Becks

I know at our encampment there we no SM's present in any of our flights barracks, they were completely cadet run, instead the SM's had their own barracks.  Matt is correct, the SM's do not need to be in the same barracks as you, but rather be present at the event.

BBATW

captrncap

Quote from: Becks on June 13, 2006, 06:48:19 PM
I know at our encampment there we no SM's present in any of our flights barracks, they were completely cadet run, instead the SM's had their own barracks.  Matt is correct, the SM's do not need to be in the same barracks as you, but rather be present at the event.

My encampment SOP has this set up that a SM will be in the cabin with the flight. They have done it this way for years. I believe that there is a space issue.

dwb

Quote from: captrncap on June 13, 2006, 07:21:07 PMMy encampment SOP has this set up that a SM will be in the cabin with the flight. They have done it this way for years.

Well, since 2004, anyway.  ;D

At Fort Drum, we had the senior members spread throughout all the barracks, so there would be a few in each one.  At Stratton, we can only fit a handful of people in each cabin, so we put one senior member in each, usually a TAC officer.

Nathan

Are we sure that this isn't against CPP?

At NCR encampment, we've heard the horror stories of having SM's in the barracks with cadets all night. We actually have SM's downstairs and cadets upstairs. Each has their own latrines.

Even in Kansas WG, cadets are not allowed to take care of their personal hygiene in the same bathroom.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Hammer

Quote from: justin_bailey on June 13, 2006, 10:20:18 PM
Quote from: captrncap on June 13, 2006, 07:21:07 PMMy encampment SOP has this set up that a SM will be in the cabin with the flight. They have done it this way for years.

Well, since 2004, anyway.  ;D

At Fort Drum, we had the senior members spread throughout all the barracks, so there would be a few in each one.  At Stratton, we can only fit a handful of people in each cabin, so we put one senior member in each, usually a TAC officer.

It would be a good idea, IMO, to have SM's in the barracks with Cadets.  I've seen on a Boy Scout trip what happens when there's no adult supervision, and it wasn't a good thing.

Eclipse

Question:

Since cadets are never supposed to be un observed by a senior, how can you have them sleeping in accomodations w/o a senior in the room.

Closed doors+cadets-seniors= a BAD IDEA, an I believe a CPP violation.

I have the same issue when cadets go to events and stay in hotel rooms by themselves with no firewatch.  while the seniors are sleeping, what stops them from leaving, or worse?

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Here is a direct quote of the governing paragraph from the CAPR 52-10:

4. Commander Responsibilities. Commanders must be sensitive to the potential for cadet abuse and carry out the policies and procedures set forth in this regulation. As a minimum, commanders will:
a. Exercise judgment and discretion when selecting senior members, cadets, and other persons to conduct or supervise cadet activities.
b. Encourage members to report any observed or alleged abuse.
c. When cadet abuse is alleged and/or verified, suspend the member from all CAP activities, make immediate notification, and take appropriate personnel actions in accordance with the provision of paragraph 2 above.
d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.
e. Conduct periodic orientations for senior members to ensure they understand the procedures and policies set forth in this regulation.
f. Ensure cadets are informed of the policies contained in this regulation.
g. Spot-check signatures on permission slips.
h. Provide parents with a calendar of activities and notify the parents when a scheduled activity is cancelled, relocated, or changed.
i. Give the parents an opportunity to personally meet the senior members by periodically designating meetings as "parents night."
j. Mail parents a current roster of members who supervise or conduct cadet activities.

Y'all are reading a lot into the reg.

Quote from: EclipseSince cadets are never supposed to be un observed by a senior, how can you have them sleeping in accomodations w/o a senior in the room.

Closed doors+cadets-seniors= a BAD IDEA, an I believe a CPP violation.

Where's it say that? Para d. comes close, but just refers broadly to an activity.

Quote from: EclipseI have the same issue when cadets go to events and stay in hotel rooms by themselves with no firewatch.  while the seniors are sleeping, what stops them from leaving, or worse?

On the one hand, we are grooming our cadets to be mature and professional, and on the other hand we need 24/7 monitoring? Seems like a paradox to me, and a serious trust issue.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

This is not a truct issue, this is a CYA liability issue.

At the core of this, bling, training, and leadership lessons aside, these
are CHILDREN, and somebody else's children to boot.

Loco Parentis means its my problem if they get hurt or killed, which means they are never left alone, period.

Its entirely possible the "no cadet left unattended" may be a wives tale,
but its also a good idea, and one which follows me at any event I have authority over.

(Can't leave those darn seniors alone very long, either)  ;D

"That Others May Zoom"

Chris Jacobs

one of the things my parents feel that i have gotten out of the CAP program the most is a better ability to work on something on my own.  My parents feel comfortable with me going out in the world by my self.  They understand the seniors aren't going to let me do any thing really stupid, but lately they have noticed that the newer seniors in my squadron hold a much shorter "leash"(if that is a good metaphor) on the cadets.  they as parents have said that they believe that it does not help the program when seniors are so tight.  they like the seniors that are there to mentor the cadets, and not hold them back.  Now i know that seniors have to protect theirselves from parents that aren't so laid back, but a happy medium is needed.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

mikeylikey

Wow, whatever you do DO NOT be the only Senior Member in a cabin with Cadets.  All it takes is one Cadet to say you acted inappropriately and then its all over for you.  Try to have at least 2 SM's together if you even decide to put a SM in with Cadets.  This is just some advice I heard about 10 years ago from an Ex-member who had a similar incident happen at the Encampment he commanded. 

You need to take care of yourself first when it comes to protecting your character, because it only takes one false rumor to ruin your appearance! ;)
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on July 12, 2006, 05:00:18 AM
...lately they have noticed that the newer seniors in my squadron hold a much shorter "leash"(if that is a good metaphor) on the cadets.  they as parents have said that they believe that it does not help the program when seniors are so tight.  they like the seniors that are there to mentor the cadets, and not hold them back.  Now i know that seniors have to protect theirselves from parents that aren't so laid back, but a happy medium is needed.

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2006, 01:04:23 PM
All it takes is one Cadet to say you acted inappropriately and then its all over for you. 

This is the tightrope we seniors walk every meeting, every event, every interaction with cadets.


"That Others May Zoom"

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2006, 03:22:08 PM
Question:

Since cadets are never supposed to be un observed by a senior, how can you have them sleeping in accomodations w/o a senior in the room.

Closed doors+cadets-seniors= a BAD IDEA, an I believe a CPP violation.

I have the same issue when cadets go to events and stay in hotel rooms by themselves with no firewatch.  while the seniors are sleeping, what stops them from leaving, or worse?

You just need to have 2 seniors at the activity, not sleeping with the cadets...

What's worse...

cadets+closed doors -seniors

or

cadets+senior+closed doors

or

cadets+seniors+shower

Which situation would you like to be in?

In my experience, either the seniors had separate accomodations, or in situations where that wasn't feasable, it was "seniors upstairs," or in the case of Ft. Pickett, seniors in the individual rooms, cadets in the bay.

Just do what you need to do to CYOA and make sure people are safe.  At encampment, the CQ and cadet staff should be on the ball, so you shouldn't have to sleep right next to the cadets in their rooms/barracks.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

mikeylikey

It doesn't matter what arrangement you have as long as there ARE TWO SENIORS that can account for each others actions at specific times and dates.  Whenever we do the Cadet Protection training, I spend very little time on the cadet issues and MORE TIME on how ADULTS can PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CADETS. 

IT ONLY TAKES ONE (1) CADET to LIE about a Senior Member to RUIN that persons life, career and family.

Basically, never be one-on-one with a cadet behind closed doors, nor ride in a car alone with a cadet.  Watch out for number one (that's you)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact, I used to tell parents, be at the Squadron to pick your children up before the end of the meeting, or else I will walk your child up to the Security Forces building and you can pick them up there! 

You really can't trust anyone this day and age, who knows what the parents are telling their children to do and say, so that they can later sue.  Don't forget you can be found innocent in Criminal court of Sexually molesting a child, but the parents can sue you in Civil court, and they may actually win, because of how jacked up our system of law is. 

SORRY for the long post rant!
What's up monkeys?

Ned

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 12, 2007, 07:13:34 PM
It doesn't matter what arrangement you have as long as there ARE TWO SENIORS that can account for each others actions at specific times and dates.  Whenever we do the Cadet Protection training, I spend very little time on the cadet issues and MORE TIME on how ADULTS can PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CADETS. 

IT ONLY TAKES ONE (1) CADET to LIE about a Senior Member to RUIN that persons life, career and family.

Basically, never be one-on-one with a cadet behind closed doors, nor ride in a car alone with a cadet.  Watch out for number one (that's you)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact, I used to tell parents, be at the Squadron to pick your children up before the end of the meeting, or else I will walk your child up to the Security Forces building and you can pick them up there! 

You really can't trust anyone this day and age, who knows what the parents are telling their children to do and say, so that they can later sue.  Don't forget you can be found innocent in Criminal court of Sexually molesting a child, but the parents can sue you in Civil court, and they may actually win, because of how jacked up our system of law is. 

SORRY for the long post rant!


Wow.  Just Wow.  :o



If you really are this scared of cadets, perhaps you might be more comfortable working in other areas of CAP.


Hyper-technical rules about whether seniors are in line of sight of each other or not are a very poor substitute for simple common sense and experience.


It is, after all the Cadet Protection Program, and its primary purpose is to protect cadets, not seniors.  Of course, by protecting cadets we also protect seniors but that is a happy side effect, not the main purpose of the program.

Please tell me you are exagerating for effect when you say that you spend "MORE TIME on how ADULTS can PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM CADETS" than the other way around.

Because if that is true, you are doing everyone in your class a disservice.

As a former CAP legal officer, I can tell you that far more cadets have been molested and hazed by seniors than seniors have been falsely accused by cadets.

As long as we are dealing with humans, there is always a risk of a false accusation, but to say "who knows what the parents are telling their children to do and say, so that they can later sue" is real Black Helicopter stuff.  In nearly 40 years of CAP experience, I have never heard of such a thing happening.

No really.  I have probably seen or heard about the majority of litigation in this area in the past few decades, I have never seen or heard of a situation where a senior exercised good common sense while supervising cadets and lost a lawsuit or ever paid a nickel in damages.

Don't handle cadets like they are IEDs ready to go off in your hands.

Lead them.  Challenge them.  And safeguard them.

But if you have burned out to the point where you are "watching out for number 1" at the expense of conducting a challenging cadet program, it is time for you to take a break.

I wish you well.

Ned Lee
Director of Cadet Programs, PCR
Former CAP Legal Officer







mikeylikey

It is possible to lead a productive cadet program while still watching out for yourself.   ;D
What's up monkeys?

Major Lord

I am constantly amazed at all the "oral traditions" that gets passed around in regards to cadet programs. I attended an SLS where a SM cadet programs officer told the newbies that we had to have a female SM on any RON activity with female cadets! On another occasion, ( while providing services for a reunion of the Doolittle Crews) I received an angry call from a parent. This parent had been assured by the SQ CMDR ( Not ours, she was a "loaner" cadet) that we would maintain 100% surveillance over her little darling, and shock of all shocks, she had been left alone to guard a door in a hotel! ( Notorious dens of sin, hotels...) If cadets need that level of supervision, they are not ready for CAP, let alone an encampment! Carry out the level of supervison that regs and prudence dictate, but lighten up! (and quit molesting cadets-you know who you are...)

Capt. Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Stonewall

At a new squadron and trying to get the cadets back into some ES training and was told by the DCS that I its very tough because we have 3 or 4 female cadets and no female seniors so it won't be fair that the female cadets wouldn't be able to attend.

Naturally, I had to quote the current CPPT regs that said "two senior members".  She said that wasn't good enough, we need a female senior.

15+ years as a senior member working with male/female cadets and never had any implications, possible accusation, potential problems of abuse or or misconduct.  Never feared that something was inappropriate or that a cadet would make up some story to tell their parents.  Not once. 

Have I run into senior members that scared the living daylights out of me as far as being one on one with cadets?  Yep.  Did I ever chase a young senior member (my own age, 24 at the time) away from the female barracks at encampment?  Absolutely.  Did I, by chance, have a former senior member show up at my squadron in 2003 the same night an older senior from Wing HQ happened to be there and recognize said "former senior member" as a guy they took his CAP ID card from at an encampment 15 years before for some sort of misconduct with cadets?  Yep. 

It happens and the potential is there.  But we can't cancel activities, deny cadets the experience of encampments or traveling the world.  We have to remain cognoscente of who works with cadets and make sure that we take every step to offer a balanced environment for the cadets to grow and enjoy their time as cadets.
Serving since 1987.

ZigZag911

Seniors should not be sharing sleeping quarters with cadets.

There should also be some sort of overnight security detail with a senior as duty officer....does not need to be 2 staying awake, as long as someone else is quickly available in case of a problem.