Face to face "yelling"

[dwb]

If you are being treated differently during your encampment than at your home unit, there is a disconnect somewhere.

Encampment can still be a more stressful environment, even if people are being treated the same.

The stress comes from the longevity of the activity, the intensity of the training schedule, being away from home and amongst strangers, getting less sleep than most teens on summer break are used to, being jolted out of one's normal routine of Facebook and X-Box, etc.

[Ned]

I think that training environments - especially initial military training environments - are different from business or operational environments in terms of military discipline.

Encampment is a different experience than a Tuesday night meeting.

Just as a routine business day in a typical military unit is different than basic training or even Tech School.

But I would certainly agree that current CAP doctrine doesn't define or recognize the difference.  Mostly because all our current doctrine does is define "hazing" which is the "outer limit" of military discipline levels.

We do not do a very good job at defining what the "atmosphere" should be like or provide a workable set of tools to help experienced leaders set the "look and feel" of various cadet activities ranging from squadron meetings to encampments.

Encampment is supposed to be different than a meeting night.  Otherwise, what's the point?  There's certainly nothing on the prescribed written curricula that couldn't be acomplished at a meeting night or a squadron weekend activity.

But we all know encampment is something special in our cadet program.  It affects cadets in measurable ways.  (As just one example, first year encampment attendence dramatically increases retention in a way no other factor has been shown to do.)

I've been through one of Uncle Sam's Initial Entry Trainings (along with several million other Americans.)  I noted that the drill sergeants did a fair amount of yelling, and actively engaged trainees in ways that seemed to motivate the trainees to perform.  Later, when I reached an operational unit, there was little or no yelling (except when it got too loud in the motor pool.)

Obviously, CAP is not the Armed Forces, and simply using the "Air Force Methods of Basic Military Training" would be a failure for our cadets.  Our cadets average 13-14 at encampment, not 17-22 like Big Blue.  USAF MTI's go through long training and apprenticeship before being placed in positions of authority over trainees; CAP staffers are lucky to have a week or two of training.

So CAP's military "atmosphere" will always be different - and probably milder - than the USAF.  But we need to get better at defining what it should be like, and giving our leaders the tools they need to challenge and motivate our cadets while safeguarding their physical and emotional safety.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[Eclipse]

If you are being treated differently during your encampment than at your home unit, there is a disconnect somewhere.

Encampment can still be a more stressful environment, even if people are being treated the same.

The stress comes from the longevity of the activity, the intensity of the training schedule, being away from home and amongst strangers, getting less sleep than most teens on summer break are used to, being jolted out of one's normal routine of Facebook and X-Box, etc.

Encampment is supposed to be different than a meeting night.  Otherwise, what's the point?  There's certainly nothing on the prescribed written curricula that couldn't be accomplished at a meeting night or a squadron weekend activity.

I agree 100%, and especially for the reasons DWB cited, but this thread is not about the ways encampment is different from a unit environment, its about using "in-your-face-yelling" as a leadership style and to instill discipline.  Some people are asserting it has no place in a unit meeting, but is ok as the "encampment way".

That's what I disagree with.

Different topics

[dwb]

Hey, you brought it up. 

BTW, lest my post on the bottom of page 2 get lost, here was my reply to the OP:

I am a former first sergeant and it is my belief that if we wear military uniforms and we go by military regs and we appear to be military, we have to act military.

What personal military experience can you cite as a model for how military CAP's cadet program should be?

[JMessmer]

I am a former first sergeant and it is my belief that if we wear military uniforms and we go by military regs and we appear to be military, we have to act military.

What personal military experience can you cite as a model for how military CAP's cadet program should be?

who said it had to be personal military experience?

my father is a colonel and i go on post all the time to witness training and etc. i hear him and all the other officers talking and i talk to the NCO's and other CAP people. If we look military, lets act it. that way when we do things right, and people think were USAF, they have a good wrong impression, not a bad one.

[JMessmer]

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conent deleted? whaaaaat??

[DC]

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conent deleted? whaaaaat??

Nice try. According to the message on the post you were the one who edited it. There is a forum policy of not 'nuking' posts, so I doubt a mod did it.

[MIKE]

This is why we need edit logging.  [/offtopic]

[Rob Sherlin]

 Also, you probably want to be REAL carefull yelling at cadets, or using too harsh of a tone. All members should have gone through the "Cadet Protection" orientation. A lot of people forget...WE ARE NOT REGULAR MILITARY!!!!!!!!! (Especially with cadets!!)
  I've seen our cadets get talked to in such a way that it's acceptable (they're not "barked" at...They're just told)...And they do so without further dissorder......There's no need for an "old time" DI type person!!

[Stonewall]

My dad is a colonel, I know exactly what goes on in the real military!!!  Meetings should be run exactly like encampment...

After all, we're not making Corn Flakes...

Can you say "wanna be"? 

[Rob Sherlin]

 It has nothing to do with "Wanna be", and we're definitly not producing "Corn Flakes". We're also not putting young people through "Boot Camp" for regular military! You may be seasoned and a "[Filter Subversion]" soldier, but don't try to make the children of other people into a "carbon copy" of you!...I'm sure it will backfire and become lawsuit one day if you treat them that harsh.
We treat our cadets with respect and motivation without being abrupt! And they respond with dedication and respect that makes us proud!.....No "barking" going on!...You ask them...they do it!
  You once said you were thinking about quitting...One of the reasons you gave was you didn't like the attitude of the cadets now adays...Now I'm thinking....Is it actually the cadets?...Or are they being treated like they're in the regular Army?
  I mean no dissrespect to you...but maybe you're being a bit to hardcore!!!!

  Maybe our motto is true.."We aint' #1 for nothing!"

[Major Lord]

Some people don't understand sarcasm because E-mail does not communicate it well....Others just don't understand sarcasm......

Major Lord

[Stonewall]

Yes, Rob Sherlin, I was being sarcastic towards our young JMessmer.  I certainly don't have that train of thought.  I've been in CAP 22 years (5 as a cadet) and have tons of cadet success stories.  In fact, read this month's VOLUNTEER about the Pararescueman and you'll see one.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Sorry! Took it in another way and to a whole new level I guess.

[Michael]

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[Pingree1492]

I will only "yell" at a cadet if the situation makes it worth doing so, and if I am darn sure that the cadet will respond to it in the manner that I need him/her to.

For the sake of discussion, what would be an example (or two) of a situation worth yelling at a cadet?  And at what distances between you and the cadet(s) are we talking about?

[Michael]

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[cap235629]

Ma'am, I suppose there would be very few situations where a subordinate cadet is in my charge, is around my age and size, who is not putting forth the amount of effort and energy that is appropriate for whatever activity. 

I would be able to sense, with a fair degree of certainty, that said cadet could put out considerably more energy, could accomplish more for his or her self, and for the unit, and is making a choice not to do so.    A quick call-out to that cadet, I believe, would both work, and be appropriate in that situation.  The activity would most likely take place outside, with some kind of physical work being done. 

My previous post was meant to serve as leadership commentary only, not a suggestion for set-in-stone, unconditional protocol.

Very respectfully,

WMC

And would be considered hazing.

Cadet, I guarantee you do not have the maturity, experience nor disposition to partake in this type of "leadership"

I am a veteran, former Marine Corps JROTC cadet, and former police officer as well as a parent.  So in other words, BTDT. I can ensure you that the Gunny Hartman, smoke em, PT til you puke style of "leadership" has NO PLACE in the cadet program INCLUDING ENCAMPMENT!

[USADOD]

If you are being treated differently during your encampment than at your home unit, there is a disconnect somewhere.

Encampment can still be a more stressful environment, even if people are being treated the same.

The stress comes from the longevity of the activity, the intensity of the training schedule, being away from home and amongst strangers, getting less sleep than most teens on summer break are used to, being jolted out of one's normal routine of Facebook and X-Box, etc.

facebook and Xbox360(particularly Halo) is my buddy lol

[Pingree1492]

My previous post was meant to serve as leadership commentary only, not a suggestion for set-in-stone, unconditional protocol.

I understand that, and don't feel that I'm picking on you personally- this is just something that I encounter quite regularly in the cadet program.  If I pull a post apart a little bit it's to try to teach something, not to attack you personally.  The fact that you recognized something in your behavior that needed to change, and then made those changes is commendable, and exactly what we, as seniors, want to see in you as a cadet leader.  But it seems you have a bit further to go.

Understand that yelling AT someone doesn't have a place in the Cadet Program (yelling at a flight or individual for poor attitude, poor performance, etc).  Yelling FOR someone (or a flight/squadron/team) is a different story.  Yelling encouragement during a CPFT, or mile run competition, yelling jodies (or cadence calls, or whatever other name you want to use), etc, etc, is all okay.

Ma'am, I suppose there would be very few situations where a subordinate cadet is in my charge, is around my age and size, who is not putting forth the amount of effort and energy that is appropriate for whatever activity.

So I assume we're talking about an attitude problem here.  In my experience, yelling at a cadet, or assigning "some kind of physical work to be done" never works, and you end up with that cadet walking.  This is, of course, the "easy" way to do it, and for whatever reason, maybe the only thing you know.  Now is your time to change, as you've done before.

Here's an example from WIWAC (an expanded version from my recent post over on CadetStuff).  I was the Deputy Cadet Commander, and that year we had 203 cadets attend our encampment.  It was a truly awesome week!  However, the second or third day of encampment, we were doing a Parade practice in the evening, and most of the officers on flight staff were goofing off during the practice, in front of the basics.  During the practice portion of Officers Center, they were doing the bare minimum to be considered "drill" and were laughing at each other when they goofed up (not being in line, not getting salute right, etc.).  I saw this, and pulled them all to the side after the practice, and had a little "come to Jesus" meeting with them. I never once raised my voice, questioned their linage, or otherwise questioned their worth as human beings. I addressed their actions only, and in a calm and level voice.  But they got the message loud and clear (years later, all the cadets that were there STILL remember that speech).

Later that night at the staff meeting, I asked if they remembered what I had talked to them about on the Parade Field. Immediately, the room sobered, and I got a bunch of nods. I asked if my little speech had had the appropriate affect on them. Again, nods and a chorus of "Yes, ma'am". Then I asked if they remembered if I had ever raised my voice during the entire conversation. Silence. I asked if they remembered the positive thing I said to them at the end of the speech, most nodded their heads. Then I asked them if what I said would have been as effective if I had been yelling at them. Quite a few of them had a "Lightbulb Moment".  If I HAD been yelling, most if not all, of the staff would have dismissed it as the rantings of a crazed Command Staff member.  Worse, they would have lost respect for me as a leader.

The professionalism that I saw the rest of that week out of my cadet officers was fantastic, as was the performance of their flights.


So, how do you fix discipline problems without yelling at your cadets?  How do you EARN respect, instead of DEMAND it?  I can't answer that in one post, but a good place to start looking is the AFOATS Training Manual (just do a google search for it, you'll find it).  This is used in AF ROTC, and is an outstanding publication.  I highly recommend you read it, then analyze how you would apply what you've read to the situation above that you just described.  You should have your own "LightBulb Moment".  And if you don't, I'm always available for discussion, in forum or over PM.