NESA first responder

arajca · January 04, 2009, 10:16:38 PM

Quote from: DC on January 04, 2009, 08:43:00 PMI won't debate that there are lots of younger kids out there that could not fully handle the course, or be able to execute what they learned in a mature and professional way, but generalizations like that are total nonsense.

It all depends on what experience the system has had. If 75% or more of under 18 FR's and EMT's are behaving unprofessionally, you make policy accordingly. If the opposite is true, well, you make policy accordingly.

We may think it's nonsense and be able to point out many exceptions, but rules and policy are not made based on the exception, they're made based on the norm. If the norm is 18 yo EMTs acting like idiots, policy is made to raise the age limit, even though there are 18 yo EMT's who are very professional and carry themselves accordingly.

John Bryan · January 04, 2009, 10:58:43 PM

How many trips around the sun a person has taken does determine if they can perform in an emergency.

The State of Indiana has set a standard for EMS First Responders and if you meet that standard at 14 or 84 you get the same certification.

Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

isuhawkeye · January 04, 2009, 11:02:20 PM

only if that first responder is working under the states guidelines, and in Iowa that means

1. Is working for an approved EMS service
2. is working under a medical director
3. has established protocols

If these are not in affect they are only a well educated bystander. in fact if you present yourself as an EMS provider you could get in serious trouble

John Bryan · January 05, 2009, 04:14:03 AM

Quote from: isuhawkeye on January 04, 2009, 11:02:20 PM
only if that first responder is working under the states guidelines, and in Iowa that means

1. Is working for an approved EMS service
2. is working under a medical director
3. has established protocols

If these are not in affect they are only a well educated bystander. in fact if you present yourself as an EMS provider you could get in serious trouble

One of the things I love about our system of government...each state can have different laws.....Indiana has no such requirements like Iowa.....so but I bet the State of Iowa ensures that is taught to their FR, EMT and Paramedics.....So another interesting side note....know your state regulations and laws and follow them.

Eclipse · January 05, 2009, 05:01:50 AM

Quote from: John Bryan on January 04, 2009, 10:58:43 PM
Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

John Bryan · January 05, 2009, 05:59:43 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2009, 05:01:50 AM
Quote from: John Bryan on January 04, 2009, 10:58:43 PM
Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

here it is in black and white....Indiana Law

IC 35-44-3-8.5
Obstructing an emergency medical person
Sec. 8.5. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally obstructs
or interferes with an emergency medical person performing or
attempting to perform his emergency functions or duties as an
emergency medical person commits obstructing an emergency
medical person, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) "Emergency medical person" means a person who holds a
certificate issued by the Indiana emergency medical services
commission to provide emergency medical services.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.341, SEC.2.

IC 35-50-3-3
Class B misdemeanor
Sec. 3. A person who commits a Class B misdemeanor shall be imprisoned for a fixed term of not more than one hundred eighty (180) days; in addition, he may be fined not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.8. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.125.

For the record....the other 49 states (or 51 wings) I have no idea what your rules/laws are.....

Eclipse · January 05, 2009, 06:03:57 AM

Quote from: John Bryan on January 05, 2009, 05:59:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 05, 2009, 05:01:50 AM
Quote from: John Bryan on January 04, 2009, 10:58:43 PM
Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

here it is in black and white....Indiana Law

IC 35-44-3-8.5
Obstructing an emergency medical person
Sec. 8.5. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally obstructs
or interferes with an emergency medical person performing or
attempting to perform his emergency functions or duties as an
emergency medical person commits obstructing an emergency
medical person, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) "Emergency medical person" means a person who holds a
certificate issued by the Indiana emergency medical services
commission to provide emergency medical services.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.341, SEC.2.

IC 35-50-3-3
Class B misdemeanor
Sec. 3. A person who commits a Class B misdemeanor shall be imprisoned for a fixed term of not more than one hundred eighty (180) days; in addition, he may be fined not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.8. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.125.

It would take a judge to decide if the will of a parent, or guardian in loco parentis, to not allow a minor child to participate in a disaster scene they deemed too hazardous, etc., held less status than the duty-to-respond law.

Might make for an interesting case.

John Bryan · January 05, 2009, 06:11:16 AM

Interesting point.......however I would not want to be the non EMS trained person who blocked the state certified or licensed person from giving care. Since scene assessment is one of the things the state has certified them to do. I wonder if the victim could sue the non trained person for blocking the trained person.

And of course there is the crime committed by the non trained person.

CAP removed what are general rules about adult / non adult when licensure is an issue. If I am a non pilot parent riding with a 16 yr old pilot "child" can I take over the controls? I would think not.

But again.....courts would have to look at these questions.

Eclipse · January 05, 2009, 07:00:58 AM

Quote from: John Bryan on January 05, 2009, 06:11:16 AMIf I am a non pilot parent riding with a 16 yr old pilot "child" can I take over the controls? I would think not.

Not the same thing - there is no law requiring that 16 year old to fly in the first place, therefore you have granted the 16 year old the authority to perform all that is a part of being a pilot.

What about the cadets parents looking to sue CAP for allowing the cadet to run into the situation and getting dead?

Complicated to say the least when we're talking about minors.

John Bryan · January 05, 2009, 07:08:29 AM

My point was the parent allowed the minor to become certified as a pilot or first responder. In the case of CAP they allowed him/her to volunteer on a search and rescue ground team. I think permission was (is) given.

If a 16 or 17 year old certified life guard is working at the YMCA and gets hurt during a rescue can the parent win money from the YMCA? More important can a manager who is not a life guard stop the minor from going into the rescue?

One more thought....loco parentis is a civil law......Obstructing an emergency medical person is a criminal law....

Complicated :angel:

JayT · January 05, 2009, 07:41:19 AM

Quote from: arajca on January 04, 2009, 10:16:38 PM
Quote from: DC on January 04, 2009, 08:43:00 PMI won't debate that there are lots of younger kids out there that could not fully handle the course, or be able to execute what they learned in a mature and professional way, but generalizations like that are total nonsense.

It all depends on what experience the system has had. If 75% or more of under 18 FR's and EMT's are behaving unprofessionally, you make policy accordingly. If the opposite is true, well, you make policy accordingly.

We may think it's nonsense and be able to point out many exceptions, but rules and policy are not made based on the exception, they're made based on the norm. If the norm is 18 yo EMTs acting like idiots, policy is made to raise the age limit, even though there are 18 yo EMT's who are very professional and carry themselves accordingly.

I'm sorry, but if you have 75 percent of 18 year old EMT's acting like idiots, it's a training problem, and it's the 45 year old EMT's not kicking enough of the 18 year old EMT's rear ends.