NESA first responder

[maverik]

Hey all I was wondering who all is going to NESA first responder this year. whow has completed it? How hard was it? Did you have fun? Most memorable memory?

[CommandCheif]

I have been It was very difficult and hard and I passed. :clap:

[JayT]

What does the course cover?

[maverik]

everything needed to be a disaster first responder with an emphasis on close quarters resue. I think 5 people "washed out" if you will,last year.

[DC]

What does the course cover?

I believe that it covers the Wilderness FR curriculum, and goes into a little bit of technical rescue stuff...

Personally I don't get the point, CAP is very clear about not being a first responder agency, and not one that routinely provides medical care, but we have our very own First Responder NCSA...

A friend of mine went, and while I have no first hand knowledge, I was not terribly impressed with what I heard about the training recieved...

[maverik]

recieved from the USPH I think? You know the guys that wear BDU's with tan boots. haha

[JayT]

everything needed to be a disaster first responder with an emphasis on close quarters resue. I think 5 people "washed out" if you will,last year.

Are they actually popping out CFR-Ds?

By the way, I know a number of guys at my job that would get a chuckle if a seventeen year old told them that they had learned everything there is to know about 'disaster first responding.....'

Also, it's not uncommon to see tan or even gray boots with BDU's. I've seen plenty of pictures of Air Force and Navy guys in that.

[John Bryan]

I know locally in the wing I was a part of that there was confusion that this was a certifying course. It is NOT.

A couple years ago the Indiana EMS Commission lowered the age of Indiana Certified EMS First Responders to the age of 14. When this happened Indiana Wing's Medical Officer started talking about wing sponsored training for the state's first responder course. This never happened on the wing level; although one of the wings squadrons (IN-036 Valparaiso Comp Sq) did offer the course as a joint project with the units BSA Venture Crew....5 members were state certified at the end of the course. Some members thought the NESA course would get them their state certification. Which it will not.

Just an FYI....

(also it is USPHS not USPH)

[JayT]

It seems kinda stupid to call it "First Responder" then.

"Advance First Aid" would be better.

[maverik]

they call it first responder because it will get Indiana Wing people certified as a first responder,but as far as other states go it's a course that'll get you training but not certification.

[JayT]

they call it first responder because it will get Indiana Wing people certified as a first responder,but as far as other states go it's a course that'll get you training but not certification.

Ah, okay, so that's were the confusion comes from.

Is the CFR program active in Indiana? I don't think there's been a CFR program on Long Island in years.

[John Bryan]

they call it first responder because it will get Indiana Wing people certified as a first responder,but as far as other states go it's a course that'll get you training but not certification.

The NESA course is NOT a state certified course. It is NOT registered with the Indiana EMS Commission. It does NOT have an Indiana EMS Commission course number. As far as I know none of the instructors (who are PHS Officers) are Indiana EMS Primary Instructor nor does the NESA course have a PI.

This course will NOT allow anyone to sit for the Indiana EMS First Responder tests.  Even Indiana residents will not be able to get certified.

It might be a great course but it is NOT a true EMS First Responder course....the only piece of paper you will get will be from CAP.

[usaf262]

Oddly enough, I am a 17 year-old First Responder certified through the state of Indiana. I'm also in an EMT program through my high school. My point is that's its not how old that matters as long as you are old enough to take the training and be serious about it 

As for NESA, I've never been to it, and have no intent of going.

[JayT]

Oddly enough, I am a 17 year-old First Responder certified through the state of Indiana. I'm also in an EMT program through my high school. My point is that's its not how old that matters as long as you are old enough to take the training and be serious about it 

As for NESA, I've never been to it, and have no intent of going.

Hey, I took my EMT-B course in high school, it's a great thing.

[usaf262]

Oddly enough, I am a 17 year-old First Responder certified through the state of Indiana. I'm also in an EMT program through my high school. My point is that's its not how old that matters as long as you are old enough to take the training and be serious about it 

As for NESA, I've never been to it, and have no intent of going.

Hey, I took my EMT-B course in high school, it's a great thing.

Yes, I would definitely agree that it's a great thing.

[SAR-EMT1]

Letting a 14 year old take a first aid class is nice but kids being able to take the CFR or EMT ? That's a SCARY thought.

My state requires one to be 18 and have a high school diploma in order to be eligible for CFR, let alone EMT.

There is talk this may be raised to 21 shortly. The reasons cited vary, but center on lack of professionalism.

[Eclipse]

Letting a 14 year old take a first aid class is nice but kids being able to take the CFR or EMT ? That's a SCARY thought.

My state requires one to be 18 and have a high school diploma in order to be eligible for CFR, let alone EMT.

There appears to be no specific age requirement indicated (I know plenty of 17 year old high school graduates, and then of course there's home-schoolers).

In Illinois, the EMT-B must be licensed by the Illinois Department of Public Health. To be licensed, one must:

    * have a high school diploma or GED;
    * complete an approved EMT training program;
    * successfully take the licensure exam; and
    * pay a fee.

Licensure must be renewed every four years.

Before becoming an EMT-I or an EMT-P, a person must be a licensed EMT-B. Paramedic and Intermediate training involves additional classroom instruction and clinical experience. To maintain licensure with the Illinois Department of Public Health, an EMT-B and EMT-I must:

    * complete 120 hours of continuing education;
    * complete a refresher course or Basic Trauma Life Support (BTLS) or Pre-hospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS) in the last two years of the licensure period; and
    * maintain a current cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) card.

An EMT-P must also complete 120 hours of continuing education and maintain a current CPR card.

For additional information, contact:

Illinois Department of Public Health
525 West Jefferson
Springfield, IL 62761
Phone: 217.782.4977
Fax: 217.782.3987
http://www.idph.state.il.us

[JayT]

Letting a 14 year old take a first aid class is nice but kids being able to take the CFR or EMT ? That's a SCARY thought.

My state requires one to be 18 and have a high school diploma in order to be eligible for CFR, let alone EMT.

There is talk this may be raised to 21 shortly. The reasons cited vary, but center on lack of professionalism.

That's just stupid, and elitist.

I was an EMT at 18, and at 20 I'm well on my way through the AEMT-CC class.

[usaf262]

Letting a 14 year old take a first aid class is nice but kids being able to take the CFR or EMT ? That's a SCARY thought.

My state requires one to be 18 and have a high school diploma in order to be eligible for CFR, let alone EMT.

There is talk this may be raised to 21 shortly. The reasons cited vary, but center on lack of professionalism.

I would disagree with that.. The course work required to become a CFR and EMT-B consist of long and hard-working classes. No matter what age someone is shouldn't be as big of a factor as what some people make it out to be. If a kid is willing to do the work and able to pass the courses, it shows they obviously know what they are doing. I know a 14 and 15 year-old first responder too.

I'll become an EMT when I'm 18 as well. I'm looking very forward to it.

[DC]

I became a CFR at 15, and I had some of the best scores on both the practical and written exams in my class, which varied in age from 15 to 45 or so.

I won't debate that there are lots of younger kids out there that could not fully handle the course, or be able to execute what they learned in a mature and professional way, but generalizations like that are total nonsense.

[arajca]

I won't debate that there are lots of younger kids out there that could not fully handle the course, or be able to execute what they learned in a mature and professional way, but generalizations like that are total nonsense.

It all depends on what experience the system has had. If 75% or more of under 18 FR's and EMT's are behaving unprofessionally, you make policy accordingly. If the opposite is true, well, you make policy accordingly.

We may think it's nonsense and be able to point out many exceptions, but rules and policy are not made based on the exception, they're made based on the norm. If the norm is 18 yo EMTs acting like idiots, policy is made to raise the age limit, even though there are 18 yo EMT's who are very professional and carry themselves accordingly.

[John Bryan]

How many trips around the sun a person has taken does determine if they can perform in an emergency.

The State of Indiana has set a standard for EMS First Responders and if you meet that standard at 14 or 84 you get the same certification.

Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

[isuhawkeye]

only if that first responder is working under the states guidelines, and in Iowa that means

1.  Is working for an approved EMS service
2.  is working under a medical director
3. has established protocols

If these are not in affect they are only a well educated bystander.  in fact if you present yourself as an EMS provider you could get in serious trouble

[John Bryan]

only if that first responder is working under the states guidelines, and in Iowa that means

1.  Is working for an approved EMS service
2.  is working under a medical director
3. has established protocols

If these are not in affect they are only a well educated bystander.  in fact if you present yourself as an EMS provider you could get in serious trouble

One of the things I love about our system of government...each state can have different laws.....Indiana has no such requirements like Iowa.....so but I bet the State of Iowa ensures that is taught to their FR, EMT and Paramedics.....So another interesting side note....know your state regulations and laws and follow them.

[Eclipse]

Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

[John Bryan]

Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

here it is in black and white....Indiana Law

IC 35-44-3-8.5
Obstructing an emergency medical person
Sec. 8.5. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally obstructs
or interferes with an emergency medical person performing or
attempting to perform his emergency functions or duties as an
emergency medical person commits obstructing an emergency
medical person, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) "Emergency medical person" means a person who holds a
certificate issued by the Indiana emergency medical services
commission to provide emergency medical services.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.341, SEC.2.

IC 35-50-3-3
Class B misdemeanor
     Sec. 3. A person who commits a Class B misdemeanor shall be imprisoned for a fixed term of not more than one hundred eighty (180) days; in addition, he may be fined not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.8. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.125.

For the record....the other 49 states (or 51 wings) I have no idea what your rules/laws are.....

[Eclipse]

Interesting side note for senior members who don't like working with those darn kids......if you are on a scene and there is a patient you must let that cadet treat them and do what they tell you (unless you're an EMT or higher) and if one of those young "punks" tells you to do something on a scene and you don't.....you have committed a crime.....enjoy jail!!!!

Its not quite that black and white...

here it is in black and white....Indiana Law

IC 35-44-3-8.5
Obstructing an emergency medical person
Sec. 8.5. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally obstructs
or interferes with an emergency medical person performing or
attempting to perform his emergency functions or duties as an
emergency medical person commits obstructing an emergency
medical person, a Class B misdemeanor.
(b) "Emergency medical person" means a person who holds a
certificate issued by the Indiana emergency medical services
commission to provide emergency medical services.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.341, SEC.2.

IC 35-50-3-3
Class B misdemeanor
     Sec. 3. A person who commits a Class B misdemeanor shall be imprisoned for a fixed term of not more than one hundred eighty (180) days; in addition, he may be fined not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.8. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.125.

It would take a judge to decide if the will of a parent, or guardian in loco parentis, to not allow a minor child to participate in a disaster scene they deemed too hazardous, etc., held less status than the duty-to-respond law.

Might make for an interesting case.

[John Bryan]

Interesting point.......however I would not want to be the non EMS trained person who blocked the state certified or licensed person from giving care. Since scene assessment is one of the things the state has certified them to do. I wonder if the victim could sue the non trained person for blocking the trained person.

And of course there is the crime committed by the non trained person.

CAP removed what are general rules about adult / non adult when licensure is an issue. If I am a non pilot parent riding with a 16 yr old pilot "child" can I take over the controls? I would think not.

But again.....courts would have to look at these questions.

[Eclipse]

If I am a non pilot parent riding with a 16 yr old pilot "child" can I take over the controls? I would think not.

Not the same thing - there is no law requiring that 16 year old to fly in the first place, therefore you have granted the 16 year old the authority to perform all that is a part of being a pilot.

What about the cadets parents looking to sue CAP for allowing the cadet to run into the situation and getting dead?

Complicated to say the least when we're talking about minors.

[John Bryan]

My point was the parent allowed the minor to become certified as a pilot or first responder. In the case of CAP they allowed him/her to volunteer on a search and rescue ground team. I think permission was (is) given.

If a 16 or 17 year old certified life guard is working at the YMCA and gets hurt during a rescue can the parent win money from the YMCA? More important can a manager who is not a life guard stop the minor from going into the rescue?

One more thought....loco parentis is a civil law......Obstructing an emergency medical person is a criminal law....

Complicated  :angel:

[JayT]

I won't debate that there are lots of younger kids out there that could not fully handle the course, or be able to execute what they learned in a mature and professional way, but generalizations like that are total nonsense.

It all depends on what experience the system has had. If 75% or more of under 18 FR's and EMT's are behaving unprofessionally, you make policy accordingly. If the opposite is true, well, you make policy accordingly.

We may think it's nonsense and be able to point out many exceptions, but rules and policy are not made based on the exception, they're made based on the norm. If the norm is 18 yo EMTs acting like idiots, policy is made to raise the age limit, even though there are 18 yo EMT's who are very professional and carry themselves accordingly.

I'm sorry, but if you have 75 percent of 18 year old EMT's acting like idiots, it's a training problem, and it's the 45 year old EMT's not kicking enough of the 18 year old EMT's rear ends.