New Radio

[Stonewall]

Need some quick confirmation.

Vertex Standard VS-350 series radio.  I understand this is a compliant radio for use in CAP?  Yes or no.  Is this radio currently and legally authorized for use in CAP?

Our comms guy that we deal with where I work has 9 available at $208 plus S&H and he says they're compliant.

Does anyone have any experience with this radio?

This is the radio that I currently use at work, as do our lifeguards (on the beach) and we have nothing but positive feedback.  Just wanted some CAPesque feedback if any is available.

[Eclipse]

I don't see it on the current Narrowband list:  https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/vhf_list.cfm

In fact I don't see any VS series radios.

Main page here:  https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/equipment.cfm

[Stonewall]

I found the CAP site listing compliant radios.  I guess Yaesu bougth Vertex so it is listed as "Yaesu (including Vertex)".

Looks like the guy was trying to sell me some radios or honestly didn't know what I was talking about.  The VX-350 series radios are not listed as compliant for CAP, not that I can see anyway.

[♠SARKID♠]

The radio isn't compliant because of its frequency stability.  The standard for portables is 2.5ppm, and the VX-350 is listed as +/- 2.5ppm; Not a tight enough spec.

[Duke Dillio]

I would have so jumped on that deal too.  I haven't had any success finding anything that I would want for less than $900.  Of course, I am trying to keep my stuff all Kenwood since I have a TK-730G.  I want to eventually set it up so I can trunk it, although I'm a total idiot in that respect.  Trunking is when you can broadcast from your portable to your vehicle and have it retrans, right?  If that's not the term, I know that I want to set up my vehicle and my portable to do that, I think...

[♠SARKID♠]

I would have so jumped on that deal too.  I haven't had any success finding anything that I would want for less than $900.  Of course, I am trying to keep my stuff all Kenwood since I have a TK-730G.  I want to eventually set it up so I can trunk it, although I'm a total idiot in that respect.  Trunking is when you can broadcast from your portable to your vehicle and have it retrans, right?  If that's not the term, I know that I want to set up my vehicle and my portable to do that, I think...

I have the same radio in my truck.  That's not what trunking is though (Trunking - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trunked_radio_system).  You're thinking of what amounts to a simplex repeater.

[Stonewall]

The radio isn't compliant because of its frequency stability.  The standard for portables is 2.5ppm, and the VX-350 is listed as +/- 2.5ppm; Not a tight enough spec.

I don't know what all this means, but he explained that +/- 2.5ppm is well within NTIA standards and is the norm.  I sent him the link Eclipse provided and he is going to check it out and get back with me tomorrow.

He explained that this radio, which is specifically the Vertex (Yaesu) VX-351 isn't even a year old and would have been made to all new/current specs required by commercial use VHF portable radios.

He did offer me a VX-821 which is waterproof to 30 ft for 30 minutes which usually runs for $600 for just under $500, but I don't need a radio that bad.  In fact, I don't even know if I need one at all.  I still have my "compliant" Motorola MT 2000 which made it by the skin of its teeth because it wasn't tested.

[♠SARKID♠]

I went onto the NTIA Redbook and looked at the actual reg, and it appears that he's right, it does comply.  The standard is 5ppm, 2.5 is for phase modulation (don' ask).   The radio may have never been tested.  If it had and was found not to be compliant, it would still be on the list just with red boxes next to it.  Fire an email up to Hartley, the radio standards officer along with a copy of the VX-350 brocure (http://www.two-wayradio.com/Vertex_pdfs/VX-350.pdf) and ask him to take a look at the specs.  If they meet, he may add it to the list.

[Stonewall]

Fire an email up to Hartley, the radio standards officer along with a copy of the VX-350 brocure (http://www.two-wayradio.com/Vertex_pdfs/VX-350.pdf) and ask him to take a look at the specs.

Done.

[JoeTomasone]

The VX-350 appears to have similar specifications to the VX-300 for intermod rejection - and thus would appear to be non-compliant.

[Eclipse]

He did offer me a VX-821 which is waterproof to 30 ft for 30 minutes...

We had a VX-150 go swimming in lake Michigan during a joint exercise.

One of the divers knocked it off the boat and then chased it down, he said he could see the lights on as he chased it.

It went fubar that day, but Vertex repaired it for about $100 and its still in use today.

[♠SARKID♠]

The VX-350 appears to have similar specifications to the VX-300 for intermod rejection - and thus would appear to be non-compliant.

And intermod rejection is the whole reason that the compliance list isn't up to date.  None of the manufacturers will upgrade to the new testing standards for intermod.

[Stonewall]

Hello Lt Col Bowden,

I took a look at the spec sheet you sent me, and unfortunately, I have
to tell you that the VX-351 does not meet the NTIA requirements for
wideband or narrowband.

Under wideband, it's receiver selectivity is insufficient, and under
narrowband it's receiver spurious response and IMD rejection are both
inadequate.

I have entered it into the lists - thank you for bringing it to our
attention!

73 DE Hartley

[♠SARKID♠]

A shame, thats too bad.  If you really want to upgrade you can always find something pretty cheap on ebay.

[Stonewall]

Any suggestions?  I'm hoping for under $500 and will not buy anything until I find one for that price.

[JoeTomasone]

Any suggestions?  I'm hoping for under $500 and will not buy anything until I find one for that price.

Ebay.  Find something that's approved and Ebay it.

The only inexpensive radios I have seen are not listed as post-'06 compliant.

[Eclipse]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

Should they say "no" later, that's an expensive lesson.

Considering you have a compliant radio today, my advice would be to not spend any money until the whole Narrowband project works itself out.

You might also check with your Wing DC, odds are there is gear on the shelf waiting for a home.

[SSgt Rudin]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

Should they say "no" later, that's an expensive lesson.

Considering you have a compliant radio today, my advice would be to not spend any money until the whole Narrowband project works itself out.

You might also check with your Wing DC, odds are there is gear on the shelf waiting for a home.

I am looking at buying a 25w Motorola Spectra (mobile radio for my truck, already have 5w portable radios, but they leave something to be desired when trying to call aircraft that aren't right on top of me) off eBay, the list has the Astro Spectra with Yes's across the board, but nothing on just a Spectra.

The Motorola site was no help, all it told me is the radio was no longer manufactured and did not have a spec sheet that I could look at/show to my DC to see if it is compliant. Anyone know anything about this radio?

I'm doubting (but really really hoping) it is because of the price

[JoeTomasone]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

I was referring to post-1/06 compliant radios, such as Motorola HT1000's. 

I see one on Ebay now for $140.00, and a pack of 6 with charger for $2100 or so.

[arajca]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

Should they say "no" later, that's an expensive lesson.

Considering you have a compliant radio today, my advice would be to not spend any money until the whole Narrowband project works itself out.

You might also check with your Wing DC, odds are there is gear on the shelf waiting for a home.

I am looking at buying a 25w Motorola Spectra (mobile radio for my truck, already have 5w portable radios, but they leave something to be desired when trying to call aircraft that aren't right on top of me) off eBay, the list has the Astro Spectra with Yes's across the board, but nothing on just a Spectra.

The Motorola site was no help, all it told me is the radio was no longer manufactured and did not have a spec sheet that I could look at/show to my DC to see if it is compliant. Anyone know anything about this radio?

I'm doubting (but really really hoping) it is because of the price

I have a 110W Spectra now. It is not narrowband compliant. It is wideband, but since you'd probably get less than a year out of it, way spend the money - unless it's REALLY REALLY cheap (>$100).

[SSgt Rudin]

well, it's not >$100, it's $150 after shipping. Probably not worth it, but there's not much on eBay, well at least in my price range.

[Eclipse]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

I was referring to post-1/06 compliant radios, such as Motorola HT1000's. 

I see one on Ebay now for $140.00, and a pack of 6 with charger for $2100 or so.

It has to have been in-service with CAP post 1/06.  How are you going to necessarily know that?

[Stonewall]

It has to have been in-service with CAP post 1/06.  How are you going to necessarily know that?

You'd think it would be that easy. 

In FLWG I had to fight tooth and nail to get a call sign even though I own 4 radios.  The only one that got me approved, almost a year after I applied for it, was my Motorola MT 2000 because it hadn't been tested.  It wouldn't have been a problem except I was a recent transfer from DCWG and there was no "proof" that it had been in use with CAP prior to 1/06.  I had to get the wing Commo King from DCWG to send an email telling FLWG that it had in fact been in use and he had personal knowledge of me using it.

That said, no one would know if you used a non-compliant radio.

[EMT-83]

I was under the impression that the new radios would be P25 digital. Can someone clarify?

[Slim]

I was under the impression that the new radios would be P25 digital. Can someone clarify?

Nope.  Only radios purchased with appropriated (Air Force) funds have to be P25 capable.  I'm not sure if that extends to equipment purchased with corporate (i.e. squadron) funds or not.

All of the equipment purchased and shipped by the NTC, the Johnson mobiles and hand helds, and the Motorola Quantar repeaters, are P25 compliant.

In the used market, about the best thing going for P25 capability that is within a member's range are the Astro Spectra and Astro Saber lines.  You can find a used Astro Saber on ebay for between $3-500.  If you've got anywhere from $5-1000 to spend, there are XTS series handhelds out there.  The key is to check the flashcode to make sure it has been programmed (for lack of a better term) for digital operation.

Programming is going to be a problem though.  You have to obtain the necessary cables and software from Motorola, and it ain't cheap.  Then, you have to know the NAC code for digital operation, or the PL for analog.  Then, there's that whole problem with getting your wing DC to give you a copy of the new channel plan.

[JoeTomasone]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

I was referring to post-1/06 compliant radios, such as Motorola HT1000's. 

I see one on Ebay now for $140.00, and a pack of 6 with charger for $2100 or so.

It has to have been in-service with CAP post 1/06.  How are you going to necessarily know that?

No, only radios that are compliant with ONLY the PRE-2006 narrowband specification must have been in service prior to 1 JAN 2006.    Radios brought into service post 1 JAN 2006 must comply with the 1/06 standard, and the HT-1000 does.   

Notice: Radios meeting the "Narrowband Pre 1/06", but failing to meet or not having been tested to the "Narrowband Post 1/06" standards may continue to be used until the end of their life cycle, if acquired or placed in service prior to Jan 2006 (Ref: 47 CFR 300 5.3.5.2, Effective Dates).

[LoyalNine]

I have a Motorola Maxtac 300 as well as a Motorola Mostar radio in my garage (collecting dust in a box)... are those worth anything to any of you guys that might be able to use it?

[CAP.is.1337]

You have to be careful with eBay - the majority of compliant radios have to have been in service before 01/06 or are listed as TBD (most are TBD, in fact).

I was referring to post-1/06 compliant radios, such as Motorola HT1000's. 

I see one on Ebay now for $140.00, and a pack of 6 with charger for $2100 or so.

I was able to buy three 16-channel VHF HT1000's this summer for less than $200. Its just a matter of being patient, and looking in the right places. (I recommend BatLabs and RadioReference)

In addition to the Jedi series of radios, Astro Sabers can be found for a good price. /\/\ just stopped servicing them, and I'm hoping that decreases prices even more. P25 capability for a couple Benji's would be really nice!

As far as mobiles go, it seem that only a handful of Moto's are compliant: Astro Spectra, XPR4550, MCS-2000, and XTL-5000

[wuzafuzz]

For those of you with post 2006 compliant Motorola radios, what are you doing for programming?  A relatively cheap radio isn't cheap anymore when paying for programming services.  Not to mention the FOUO issues involved with providing the frequency lists to a radio shop.  Buying the programming software isn't very cheap either.  Is the software for older radios available inexpensively?

I have a 48ch Motorola XTS3000 found on eBay for $300.  But the programming software is another $300 and it is only good for three years! 

I'm curious how other folks are handling these speed bumps.

[Eclipse]

^ This is another risk of buying something non-standrad to what your wing is using.

However there is a process for providing programming information to outside shops.

[Slim]

XPR4550

The XPR series might work with CAP frequencies, but not digital operations.  That's a MotoTRBO radio, which uses a different kind of digital signaling process than P-25.  I won't bore anyone with the technical differences, and I don't know if you can program analog operation into a MotoTRBO radio.

For those of you with post 2006 compliant Motorola radios, what are you doing for programming?  A relatively cheap radio isn't cheap anymore when paying for programming services.  Not to mention the FOUO issues involved with providing the frequency lists to a radio shop.  Buying the programming software isn't very cheap either.  Is the software for older radios available inexpensively?

I have a 48ch Motorola XTS3000 found on eBay for $300.  But the programming software is another $300 and it is only good for three years! 

I'm curious how other folks are handling these speed bumps.

I have the software and cables to program all of my own equipment (Moto MT-2000 and HT-1000, and Tait T-2020).  I also provide programming for a couple of members who are local and have similar equipment. 

What I'm still up in the air about is whether or not the wingdings are going to give me the freqs and channel plan when the time comes.  Wing DC says yes, his comm admin guy says no.  According to him, I'll be expected to turn my radio, cable and software (which is a huge violation of Moto's Draconian licensing contract) over to them so they can program it.  Which I will not do; licensing issues aside, I also use my CAP radios for work and amateur radio.  If I were to do that, the first thing I'm going to do when I get it home is hook it up, read the darn thing, and I'll have all of the info they didn't want to give me in the first place.  Not that I'd release the info or anything, but then I'll have it.  Besides, the new frequency info will be out on the web within five minutes of it being released anyway.  Don't think so?  Go to the RadioReference database and look at all the new federal and military trunked systems (which are also FOUO) they have published.

Fuzz, that XTS is a good radio, and should meet your needs.  Best bet for programming is to check and see if there are any Motorola dealers or service shops in your area, then see what they charge for programming.  Then, follow the process to get the plan released to the shop to do it.

Funny, we have a system in place to release it to Leo at the radio shop, but not our own members???

[cap235629]

here is a good buy on a compliant radio for those who may be interested.  Will do everything but P-25

Linky

[wuzafuzz]

here is a good buy on a compliant radio for those who may be interested.  Will do everything but P-25

Linky

According to this list, that radio isn't compliant post 2006.  https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/vhf_summary.cfm

Further, it looks like it only covers down to 145 MHz.  We need to cover from 136-174 MHz.

Sorry to rain on anyone's parade.

[maverik]

Actually even if it isn't post 06 CAP still says you can use it until the length of its life span runs out, and if the radio is on the list of approved radios then you should be able to use it.

[Eclipse]

Actually even if it isn't post 06 CAP still says you can use it until the length of its life span runs out, and if the radio is on the list of approved radios then you should be able to use it.

"Post 06" means you cannot put a new radio into CAP service after January 2006.

So if you owned one and it was licensed for use in CAP before 2006.  Great, use it until it dies.

If you buy one secondary market and can prove it was licensed somewhere in CAP before 2006, probably not a problem.

But if you buy one new or secondary market and it was never licensed for CAP use before 2006, its not compliant and you can't use it.

And again, if you really need a CAP radio, there is likely equipment sitting on a shelf at your Wing HQ begging for deployment, regardless, most prudent members would not spend any money on equipment intended for CAP-only use until the whole narrow-band situation shakes out.

If you're HAM or ES person and are hoping to use a radio for CAP as a "nice", then you do so at your own risk until things stabilize.

[wuzafuzz]

Actually even if it isn't post 06 CAP still says you can use it until the length of its life span runs out, and if the radio is on the list of approved radios then you should be able to use it.

"Post 06" means you cannot put a new radio into CAP service after January 2006.

So if you owned one and it was licensed for use in CAP before 2006.  Great, use it until it dies.

If you buy one secondary market and can prove it was licensed somewhere in CAP before 2006, probably not a problem.

But if you buy one new or secondary market and it was never licensed for CAP use before 2006, its not compliant and you can't use it.

And again, if you really need a CAP radio, there is likely equipment sitting on a shelf at your Wing HQ begging for deployment, regardless, most prudent members would not spend any money on equipment intended for CAP-only use until the whole narrow-band situation shakes out.

If you're HAM or ES person and are hoping to use a radio for CAP as a "nice", then you do so at your own risk until things stabilize.

Mobile radios a probably readily available for those with a need.  Portable radios are not as readily available.

[Eclipse]

Mobile radios a probably readily available for those with a need.  Portable radios are not as readily available.

You might be surprised. 

Many wings have been sitting on the gear because of TOA issues, and lately the auditors have been telling them "issue it or return it, asap".

[IceNine]

Actually even if it isn't post 06 CAP still says you can use it until the length of its life span runs out, and if the radio is on the list of approved radios then you should be able to use it.

"Post 06" means you cannot put a new radio into CAP service after January 2006.

So if you owned one and it was licensed for use in CAP before 2006.  Great, use it until it dies.

If you buy one secondary market and can prove it was licensed somewhere in CAP before 2006, probably not a problem.

But if you buy one new or secondary market and it was never licensed for CAP use before 2006, its not compliant and you can't use it.

And again, if you really need a CAP radio, there is likely equipment sitting on a shelf at your Wing HQ begging for deployment, regardless, most prudent members would not spend any money on equipment intended for CAP-only use until the whole narrow-band situation shakes out.

If you're HAM or ES person and are hoping to use a radio for CAP as a "nice", then you do so at your own risk until things stabilize.

Mobile radios a probably readily available for those with a need.  Portable radios are not as readily available.

That is one of the main problems.  People assume that this stuff doesn't exist or is already spoken for.

Equipment in CAP is usually not passed out just for the fun of it.  Usually it takes someone asking for it AND having a need.

The worst that your Wing DC is going to say if you ask for equipment is I don't have any right now, but I'll put you on the list.

[wuzafuzz]

Mobile radios a probably readily available for those with a need.  Portable radios are not as readily available.

You might be surprised. 

Many wings have been sitting on the gear because of TOA issues, and lately the auditors have been telling them "issue it or return it, asap".

I might be surprised?  I did ask and was told portable radios are not as available as mobiles.  I was even told I could probably get two mobiles but no portable.  On several occasions wing and group communications people have explained that far more mobiles were purchased than portables.  A National executive (I forget the name) shared the same fact during my wing conference last year.

[Eclipse]

Mobile radios a probably readily available for those with a need.  Portable radios are not as readily available.

You might be surprised. 

Many wings have been sitting on the gear because of TOA issues, and lately the auditors have been telling them "issue it or return it, asap".

I might be surprised?  I did ask and was told portable radios are not as available as mobiles. 

I wouldn't argue that, they were in about a 10-1 ratio, and if your Wing gave out all their gear, then good on them, but there's a lot out there sitting on the shelf.

Another avenue is requesting that your Unit/Group CommO review who has existing equipment and ask whether its still appropriate in light of your need. A couple of non-player GOB's sitting on $1800 EFJ's doesn't do anyone any good.

[CAP.is.1337]

This is just my opinion, but I'd much rather have my own $100 radio than a $1800 CAP radio. If for some reason it was destroyed or lost in the woods, it would be my own problem, and not CAP's. (HT1000's are still plentiful and inexpensive. I've even got an extra one I'm not using, if any of y'all are interested. Your wing might even have the programming capability; I know VAWG does.)

[Stonewall]

Here is what I discovered; something I know isn't rocket science.  But as long as you are assigned a call sign no one will know what radio you are using. 

I just bought a new radio for work, and put CAP freqs in it since I only use 4 channels.  My radio guy tried to once again explain what this whole compliance thing is about and he explained it.  And again, I don't see how any radio made after 2006 IS NOT compliant because they all seem to be within the legal range.  If not, why would anyone make a radio that isn't compliant.

[♠SARKID♠]

Here is what I discovered; something I know isn't rocket science.  But as long as you are assigned a call sign no one will know what radio you are using. 

I just bought a new radio for work, and put CAP freqs in it since I only use 4 channels.  My radio guy tried to once again explain what this whole compliance thing is about and he explained it.  And again, I don't see how any radio made after 2006 IS NOT compliant because they all seem to be within the legal range.  If not, why would anyone make a radio that isn't compliant.

Manufacturers do occasionally come out with slight modifications to existing radio models, but chances are if the model was compliant pre-06 it is compliant post-06.  The problem is that unless that can be proven, it can't be legally sanctioned for use.

[Eclipse]

Here is what I discovered; something I know isn't rocket science.  But as long as you are assigned a call sign no one will know what radio you are using.

Not 100% true - if your radio is bleeding into other freqs, or otherwise doing weirdness, they may recall the equipment you were assigned for recertification.  If it checks out, then you continue the use of the rogue gear, questions may be asked.  They can't MIB-track it to your trunk, but the comm-stazi  tends to know what everyone has been licensed for and will, on occasion, make an issue of it.

I just bought a new radio for work, and put CAP freqs in it since I only use 4 channels.  My radio guy tried to once again explain what this whole compliance thing is about and he explained it.  And again, I don't see how any radio made after 2006 IS NOT compliant because they all seem to be within the legal range.  If not, why would anyone make a radio that isn't compliant.

At least some of this can be blamed on either the manufacturer or the NTIA, depending on who you like.  Some of the manufacturers simply have no interest in submitting radios, especially older ones, for NTIA certification to the most current specs, especially if it means that you'd have to buy one of their newer ones to replace the non-compliant ones.

[maverik]

Heck I didn't know the HT's were compliant might have to pick me up one, oor see if the fire dept. chief wants to lend me one

[wuzafuzz]

If anyone is still looking for a compliant radio, I just put one up for sale in the marketplace section.  It has the link to the eBay auction.

[arajca]

Here is what I discovered; something I know isn't rocket science.  But as long as you are assigned a call sign no one will know what radio you are using. 

I just bought a new radio for work, and put CAP freqs in it since I only use 4 channels.  My radio guy tried to once again explain what this whole compliance thing is about and he explained it.  And again, I don't see how any radio made after 2006 IS NOT compliant because they all seem to be within the legal range.  If not, why would anyone make a radio that isn't compliant.

Manufacturers do occasionally come out with slight modifications to existing radio models, but chances are if the model was compliant pre-06 it is compliant post-06.  The problem is that unless that can be proven, it can't be legally sanctioned for use.

Not quite. In Jan 2006, they changed the certification test methodology. Although the standards haven't changed, how they are measured has. If you don't use the current test method, you can't get the radio certified.

I think in general, many probably do meet the current standards, but the manufacturers do not want to test the units for what is arguably a niche market. I had heard that the current test methology costs about $10,000 per test.

[JoeTomasone]

And again, I don't see how any radio made after 2006 IS NOT compliant because they all seem to be within the legal range.  If not, why would anyone make a radio that isn't compliant.

Because only the Federal Government is licensed by NTIA, and NTIA doesn't enforce the standards except in case of interference.   Everyone else (licensed by the FCC) has much more relaxed spectral purity requirements.    So do you follow a spec that only CAP is making mandatory or do you make what people are buying?