Don't salute the aviator shirt or csu uniforms!

[winterg]

According to AFPAM 36-2241 V1 a salute is NOT innapropriate while in civilian clothing.  Have at it.  It is a measure of respect, regardless of uniform.

[winterg]

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

I was fairly sure the USAF had a golf shirt, but couldn't confirm it easily.
Since I gave the USAF a point on a limited-wear flight suit (darkblue for t-birds), its only fair we take a point on the limited-wear VSAF shirt.
Lets go to the big board for the new totals...
Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.
Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.
Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1
Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)
Golf shirt:
CAP - 2
USAF - 1
CAP - 10 basic uniforms
USAF - 9 basic uniforms

I don't think you are being entirely fair in your assensment of numbers of uniforms.  Counting concurrent uniforms during a changeover is misleading. 

Utility uniforms for the AF are changing.  The BDU and DCU are going away and they will have only one.  Same with the blues.  When it is decided on and the old ones phased out, there will be one. 

Not sure about their flight suit situation but I thought the dark blue was only missle crew in their bunkers?  May be wrong on that one.

[Eclipse]

Our corporate combinations, especially the aviator whites, don't really fit the textbook definition of "civilian clothing", especially internal to CAP.

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

[Larry Mangum]

I remember being taught as a young active duty airman that it was appropriate to salute a superior if I recognized him even if both of were not in uniform or if just one of us was.  For example if I am in civvies and run across my Commanding Officer it would not be inappropriate for me to render a salute as a courtesy

[Eclipse]

I don't think you are being entirely fair in your assessment of numbers of uniforms.  Counting concurrent uniforms during a changeover is misleading.

Maybe, but too many folks discuss the number of combos CAP has as if you need science degree to figure it out, when in fact we're not really in any different boat than other similarly dressed services.

The transitional uniforms are a legit part of the discussion, because it means that affected personnel have to start doing the same mental math we do when getting dressed. Besides, I think in the 9 years I've been in CAP, there's been at least one service in major uniform transition, if not more, the whole time.

Not sure about their flight suit situation but I thought the dark blue was only missile crew in their bunkers?  May be wrong on that one.

The T-Birds and their support crews wear dark blue as well.

[SilverEagle2]

The T-Birds and their support crews wear dark blue as well.

And they look mighty good next to their birds wearing them. However, that's the only place they look good IMHO.

I just think for cost and confusion elimination, we need to be consistant with the blues and whites. That way we look UNIFORM without creating a USAF issue.

A CSU with grey epaulets and One line Name plate standing next to the AF Service Dress with the grey epaulets and one line would look good in a line up/formation

Take the jackets off, the whites with grey epaulets and grey nameplate standing next to the same on blue would also look uniform.

Then make the customs uniform and problem solved. No confusion, consolidated manufacturing, good looking consistant appearing uniforms. Lot's of wins here.

[D2SK]

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

8 years in the fire service....never once saluted another firefighter, fire officer, chief, etc.  The fire department isn't the military, doesn't observe military customs, etc.  At least our department wasn't like that.  Our police department was the same way.

[MIKE]

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

I would allow it.  Bear in mind that an appropriate verbal greeting still applies.  If Maj Gen Courter disagrees with that read of CAPP 151, she should use her power as CAP/CC and get the pamphlet changed, or better yet changed to a reg.  I would hope that she wouldn't chew out the cadet (or me) for following published guidance as written.  Technically, I wouldn't have to salute, even if she was wearing AF-style.

Disagree with your contention that the cite does not apply to CAP internally... as that is exactly what the wording "exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform" suggests.

At least within the CGAux, we've dispensed with the whole saluting among Auxies thing.  My trops are a more military-style uniform than my service uniform, yet they get treated the same as the aviator shirt in CAP.

[Eclipse]

Then make the customs uniform and problem solved. No confusion, consolidated manufacturing, good looking consistant appearing uniforms. Lot's of wins here.

I agree, except that without relaxing the facial hair and hair-length regs on the CSU, you risk alienating a lot of members
if you standardize on the CSU as the corporate uniform.

[SilverEagle2]

Ah, forgot the grooming applies to the CSU.

Good Point.

[Eclipse]

Disagree with your contention that the cite does not apply to CAP internally... as that is exactly what the wording "exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform" suggests.

OK, except it doesn't say "USAF-style" uniform, it says "military style".

So the flight suit, for sure, regardless of color, since they are the same cut and insignia, and certainly there is a rainbow of colors in other services.

Same goes for the BDUs.

And the aviator whites are certainly a "military-style uniform" - grade sleeves, badges, ribbons, etc., the only real difference is material color and lack of a hat, which indoors is a non-issue for everyone.

[MIKE]

You have to know what "military-style" defined in 1989 to apply it correctly.  You can't say X-CAP distinctive uniform is extended military style status when it didn't exist.  Update the pamphlet, rather than extending the meaning of the wording to suit your personal prefrence.... Which is what this whole thread is about.

[bosshawk]

One more place where the real AF wears the blue bag: in mission control centers for satellite operations.  I was assigned to an AF satellite control facility in Sunnyvale, Ca and the active duty folks wore blue bags.  Looks like the AF really does have three flight suits.

If they weren't so darned expensive, I believe that more CAP folks would wear the blue flight suits.  IMHO, they are a sharp uniform.  Since I have three or four sage ones, I am too tight to buy a blue one.

[Eclipse]

Update the pamphlet, rather than extending the meaning of the wording to suit your personal preference....

...or limiting the meaning for the same reason.

I'm all for clarifications of the regulations, why NHQ doesn't see these and other discussions and work to squeeze out the need for interpretation is beyond me.  In a lot of cases its been the same circular arguments about the same things for 10 years.

But a lot of people seem to think its OK to try and make customs and courtesies-based political statements about which uniforms they like and which they don't, which is not right.

A general or commander is a general or commander, regardless of what they are wearing, especially if its some form of approved uniform.  They deserve the courtesies afforded them by reg.

[Smokey]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

Can someone, anyone  please explain to me why there is such an aversion to saluting?

Please please....I guess I am really dumb.   The efforts some will go to in order to avoid a simple movement of the hand and arm boggles me.

[Eclipse]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

If only it were, use search and we'll see you in 2009! 

[MIKE]

A general or commander is a general or commander, regardless of what they are wearing, especially if its some form of approved uniform.  They deserve the courtesies afforded them by reg.

And in CAP it's in a non-directive pamphlet written in 1989, so you can do what you want... and I can do what the pamphlet suggests I do or not do. 

[D2SK]

3 Pages of how to avoid saluting.....oh my gawd...

Can someone, anyone  please explain to me why there is such an aversion to saluting?

Please please....I guess I am really dumb.   The efforts some will go to in order to avoid a simple movement of the hand and arm boggles me.

I think some of the "purists" want to punish those who can't or choose not to wear an Air Force uniform.  For pete's sake, just salute.  What's the big deal?

[MIKE]

... And those who would discontinue the USAF style uniform for similar reasons.  It goes both ways.

[Grumpy]

Our corporate combinations, especially the aviator whites, don't really fit the textbook definition of "civilian clothing", especially internal to CAP.

Police and fire uniforms are certainly "civilian clothing" in the same respect, however it is common for subordinates to salute their superiors in PD/FD circumstances, especially during award ceremonies.

We haven't heard back yet from Mike whether he would allow a cadet to not salute the National CC when reporting for an award if she were in whites.

Wow! I must have really been disrespectfull.  29 years on the Sheriff's Dept. and I don't remember ever saluting.