Don't salute the aviator shirt or csu uniforms!

[JoeTomasone]

It is never inappropriate to show respect and courtesy towards a higher-ranking officer, regardless of the clothing they're wearing.

If that means someone in a corporate uniform gets a salute, then so be it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Snake Doctor]

20 years in the USAF and spending much time as both a CAP member and USAF now just a CAP member my take is:  If I'm in any CAP uniform showing grade and I get saluted by CAP or military, I return a correct one (I say that because I've seen some pretty goofy looking salutes) I salute ALL CAP and Military superior ranking officers.  If I am in a polo I don't salute nor expect a salute.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This discussion has triggered a question in my mind, and I'd like some input.

Recently, the Congress changed the law pertaining to rendering honors to the colors, and wrote a provision that VETERANS may render the military salute regardless of what clothing they are wearing.

Doesn't our ICL, which requires the civilian hand-to-heart salute when in corporate duds, now conflict with Federal law which gives a veteran the option of what salute to render?

[Eclipse]

Doesn't our ICL, which requires the civilian hand-to-heart salute when in corporate duds, now conflict with Federal law which gives a veteran the option of what salute to render?

Our regs don't trump federal law.

For anyone making an issue of it, simply commenting "I'm a veteran...", should end the conversation.

[winterg]

.....hold on a sec while I erect my bulletproof resistant baricade.....

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

[SilverEagle2]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

While I agree with you in principle, that would eliminate a uniform accommodation for those unable/unwilling to meet height/weight/grooming standards  

Personally, I use the privilege of being able to wear the USAF as a motivation to continue to meet the height/weight/grooming standards.

Much like I use the possibility of loosing my medical as a means to staying healthy.

However, I see no problem having SINGULAR/closely standardized (i.e same epaulets, nameplates between the blue and whites) equivalents to provide options, but the customs and courtesies should also be equivalent.

[winterg]

^+1

[Eclipse]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

We are not the only service with more than one uniform for a respective purpose.

The Navy, for example, has at least 6 different categorized combinations, not including the new NWU's and NSU.

In fact right now, because of the transitions in the services and the number deployed in the gulf, I'd say that the situation in the compensated services is more jumbled than CAP, and will be until all the phase-out dates pass in he next 3-5 years.

If you want to compare CAP combos to the USAF:

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 1
USAF - 0

So the only place we really "lose" (win?) is on the CSU, as I've seen plenty of USAF people wearing various agency polos in different flavors when appropriate.

Leaving the weight issue on the table, there is still the challenge of long hair and beards, without which I would hazard a guess that the CSU would be adopted as the replacement for the whites, eliminating one combo and making our photos more uniform, even when standing next to USAF people.  The USAF does not have this challenge, but as a volunteer organization we cannot afford to risk the memberships of our people who have more creative hairstyles and facial hair.

I think that the current solution fits out needs, and is not excessive, not to mention that there is no requirement to invest in anything but a golf shirt (in 99% of activities).  As you move up the chain, there are increased expectations for appearance that are part of the game, especially when trying to set an example for cadets or subordinates.

[Smokey]

Why is there such an aversion to saluting among so many here???  It's not like you are being asked to lick their boots.

Sheesh...get over it.  If you don't like to salute....just show up in your underwear and quit your griping.   

[Grumpy]

Amen, sarge.

[Rob Sherlin]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:  If someones wearing a uniform that displays rank (which to me would classify as a military type uniform ), is it so bad, or take so much effort to lift and arm and salute out of respect?

  If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

[MIKE]

If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

Nope.

[Rob Sherlin]

Why?

  I think the problem here is "What's considered a Military type uniform". A lot of peope say the white aviator shirts with the greys isn't military...Yet, military style rank is worn with it. The white aviator shirt worn with the blues doesn't go for a lot of you also (even though it seems more military than the aviator shirt worn with the greys). Both display military style rank, therefore, should be recognized as so.
  I am begining to think that it's not the uniform.....It's just a lot of you have problems with people not meeting the height and weight requirements to wear the regular AF style (and maroon epaulet slleeves didn't work, so they chose grey?), or people who have facial hair (if I'm correct, even the Navy accepted beards with their regular uniforms as long as they're trimmed and you don't look like "Grizzly Adams"....don't know if that has canged).
  If you're going to "alienate" the people who don't meet those standards...Then you might as well swing the other way too,  and alienate the peope who look like they way 80 lbs and can be blown out of formation by someone just "breaking wind". I know for fact that not all people who don't meet the requirements are "out of shape"!

[MIKE]

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

The people who wrote that did not intend for the CAP distinctive uniforms to be confused with "military-style uniforms."

Edited to add:

I am begining to think that it's not the uniform.....It's just a lot of you have problems with people not meeting the height and weight requirements to wear the regular AF style (and maroon epaulet sleeves didn't work, so they chose grey?), or people who have facial hair (if I'm correct, even the Navy accepted beards with their regular uniforms as long as they're trimmed and you don't look like "Grizzly Adams"....don't know if that has canged).

Go find yourself a CAPM 39-1 from around the time CAPP 151 was written in the late '80s.  IIRC, the aviatior shirt with epaulet sleeves was new in the mid '90s... and blue Field Uniform didn't exist, you wore BDUs and flightsuits without grade instead.  There was no quasi-military CSU... There was the only the blazer.

[Camas]

  If you were in front of the National Commander and she was wearing the "Aviator Whites"....Would you salute her?

If I'm in uniform - absolutely - no question.

[Eclipse]

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.

The people who wrote that did not intend for the CAP distinctive uniforms to be confused with "military-style uniforms."

What about simply in her role as your Commander?

Would you allow a cadet to report to her to receive an award and not salute?

I would certainly salute her - IMHO, the "military style uniform" distinction is for the purposes of defining when a CAP member is required to salute members of other services.

I don't believe there is ever any "relief" from saluting internal to CAP.

[NIN]

<breathless mea culpa follows>

I wore whites & greys tonight.  And I saluted.

*I feel so.... normal*

Thanks, needed that.

Back to your regularly scheduled argument.

[Rob Sherlin]

  No way!!!...But, is she wearing a uniform that shows her rank? If she's wearing a golf shirt, she may not be recognized (might even invite her to play a few holes..(afterall, it is a golf/club shirt )). Any other uniform, she should have rank, and I WILL (of course), "snap my hand to my brow" out of respect and honor!
 As far as what is written, we all know that's in need of clarification. There's no excuse!...It needs to be rewritten so EVERYTHING is covered. When they make a change, they should make it a point to inform everyone, and remove all the old information from viewing.
 If they never intended certain uniforms to be "Military", than there shouldn't be military rank worn with them (you might as well authorize rank on the lapels of the golf shirt uniform).
 The white aviator shirt, with grey trousers, and grey epaulet sleeves, "IS" military style (even though it looks like you work for an airline, you still wear military rank, and it's more "uniform" (color matching) than wearing all blue with grey epaulet sleeves). The CSU (without the jacket....Class"B" for old school) is even more military like because it's almost the same as Regular AF with exception of the shirt (worn with no jacket).

[JohnKachenmeister]

This would not be a problem if we had ONE dress uniform, ONE utility uniform, and ONE flying uniform.

We are not the only service with more than one uniform for a respective purpose.

The Navy, for example, has at least 6 different categorized combinations, not including the new NWU's and NSU.

In fact right now, because of the transitions in the services and the number deployed in the gulf, I'd say that the situation in the compensated services is more jumbled than CAP, and will be until all the phase-out dates pass in he next 3-5 years.

If you want to compare CAP combos to the USAF:

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 1
USAF - 0

So the only place we really "lose" (win?) is on the CSU, as I've seen plenty of USAF people wearing various agency polos in different flavors when appropriate.

Leaving the weight issue on the table, there is still the challenge of long hair and beards, without which I would hazard a guess that the CSU would be adopted as the replacement for the whites, eliminating one combo and making our photos more uniform, even when standing next to USAF people.  The USAF does not have this challenge, but as a volunteer organization we cannot afford to risk the memberships of our people who have more creative hairstyles and facial hair.

I think that the current solution fits out needs, and is not excessive, not to mention that there is no requirement to invest in anything but a golf shirt (in 99% of activities).  As you move up the chain, there are increased expectations for appearance that are part of the game, especially when trying to set an example for cadets or subordinates.

Minor corrections:

The USAF does have a golf shirt uniform.  It is worn by recruiters and some others.  It is a golf shirt like ours, but with the Air Force's new Fugitive-From-An-Origami-Festival logo on the left breast.  It is worn with khaki trousers.

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

[Eclipse]

Technically, we have 2 casual uniforms, the golf shirt and the polo shirt, which is worn on the VSAF program.

I was fairly sure the USAF had a golf shirt, but couldn't confirm it easily.

Since I gave the USAF a point on a limited-wear flight suit (darkblue for t-birds), its only fair we take a point on the limited-wear VSAF shirt.

Lets go to the big board for the new totals...

Battle / working uniform:
CAP - 2,  camo & dark blue.
USAF - 3, camo, desert, and the ABU.

Flight suit:
CAP - 2,  Green & dark blue (technically three until March 09).
USAF - 3, green, desert, dark blue.

Mess dress:
CAP - 1
USAF - 1

Service Dress:
CAP - 3, whites, blues, CSU
USAF - 1, blues (soon to be two when they decide on the new one)

Golf shirt:
CAP - 2
USAF - 1

CAP - 10 basic uniforms
USAF - 9 basic uniforms