DF recommendations

[DNall]

Well, the LPer I got is broke. I got 2 GTs at least in my unit, plus another flight functioning under us, and two middle school programs we're overseeing too.

I need 2-3 DF units. I'm putting in 200. I'm going to talk a couple others into matching that, and cadets are going to raise a few bucks.

I'm not overly impressed with the Lper system. I've heard about a couple alternatives. I'd just like to get a solid set of recommendations on what to do with my $600-1000. What's the options, pro/cons, additional equipment needed, etc.

THANKS for the help!!!

[Eclipse]

Send in the broken one for the (generally) flat rate repair and then try and get enough cash for
a new L-Per (the orange plastic one).

One of my guys showed up with one a couple weeks ago that he bought with his own cash and I can tell you they rock.

[SJFedor]

I used the little orange box on an actual not too long ago which one of my units bought out of pocket. They really are the bomb.

[DNall]

$35 for the repair is no problem, but I'm stuck laying out 750 for a second unit I guess? That much money goes a LOONG way in a CAP unit.

[BigMojo]

I feel a bit like a broken record, but, go for the Sniffer MK4. Take a read of this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5048.0

for your 700-1000 dollars, you could get three of these systems. I've used the Old L-Per, the Seimac Pro-Find, and the New Cheeseblock L-Per, I'll take the Sniffer hands down. Light, small, sensitive, cost effective. It's a no brainier for me. I think we are up to 5 units in Group VI now (some in hands and others in transit), and given that we have on average 4-6 missions a month (acutals) we've had plenty of practice.

[DNall]

but no 243? That's problematic. We get some of those, and we're in the situation of having to keep on par with USCG in terms of ability to locate signals efficiently. Also have to come up with an antenna, hmm. I'm not against it, but this is wht I need the extra discussion for.

[Eclipse]

Yes, we had a 243 the other day.

Not to mention there's no antennas available (per their website) and their first recommendation is building antennas out of tape measure segments.

This is a little too "mom's basement" for my comfort.

[PHall]

243MHz is one of the reasons I stick with L-Tronics.

L-Tronics is owned and operated by a longtime CAP member. His products are pretty much tailored for CAP needs.

[JoeTomasone]

I recommend the Diamond MAY-1000 antenna - it covers from 120-500Mhz and is small and compact.  Works VERY well with the MK4.

You can get the MK4 Sniffer, MAY-1000, and a mag-mount VHF Airband antenna for half the price of an L-Per.

If I ever get a 243, I will use the (old) L-Per to get within range of the 1st order harmonic on 121.5 and then use the MK4.   Haven't had one yet, though.

[BigMojo]

Using the first order harmonic, while not optimal, works just fine with the sniffer. I've only had one 243, but was able to find it with no problem. The maker of the sniffer is working on a solution and hopes to have it ready soon.

As for antennas...I like Joe's Diamond, but, I use a handheld beam from www.arrowantenna.com they also make a loop that works great for in close.

[Eclipse]

As for antennas...I like Joe's Diamond, but, I use a handheld beam from www.arrowantenna.com they also make a loop that works great for in close.

The correct link is: http://www.arrowantennas.com/

I know it flies in the face of the whole "DIY Spirit" of the HAM, but I have no interest in building antennas, or even parting out a system from various suppliers.

Give me big-button, simple tech, so attention can be focused on mission execution.

[PHall]

I guess I just live in the right (wrong) part of the country. We get a fair amount of 243MHz stuff here.
Mostly in military helicopters and survival vests.

[DNall]

We get a good balance of boats & aircraft of all types. A small number of 243, but enough that I don't really want a unit covering a whole geographic area that doesn't have the capability.

On the other hand, I'm intrigued by a system that costs a third the money so that I can actually equip the units versus not at all This is not a case of having both the old LPer and another system. I can fix my old LPer & give it to this other flight, then buy a new system for my unit; OR, I can fix the LPer, and buy 2 Mk4 (or other low price systems), give the flight one of the Mk4s, keep one for one of my GTs & have hte Lper for my other GT. I need some input to make that funding decision so I can best equip my units.

I'm not going to build an antenna. I'm not wild about piecemealing a system together, but I'm willing to do it if I have to in order to get my units operable.

[BigMojo]

As for antennas...I like Joe's Diamond, but, I use a handheld beam from www.arrowantenna.com they also make a loop that works great for in close.

The correct link is: http://www.arrowantennas.com/

I know it flies in the face of the whole "DIY Spirit" of the HAM, but I have no interest in building antennas, or even parting out a system from various suppliers.

Give me big-button, simple tech, so attention can be focused on mission execution.

Pardon my typo.
Just for refrence here...
- I'm not a HAM.
- "Parting out" is sometimes needed to get the best rig. That being said  I and others have done the leg work already, it takes 5min more for anyone to get this setup now. Anyone can ask me, and I have all the links, part numbers and prices.
- There is nothing to "build" with the Sniffer rig. I can have it set-up and running almost as fast as an L-per, and what time I lost there, I'll make up in locating the beacon before an L-per user.
- The Sniffer is pretty darn simple, and as far as mission execution goes, you don't have think as much with the way the Sniffer works. This leaves you more free brain cells for "execution".

[JoeTomasone]

Using the first order harmonic, while not optimal, works just fine with the sniffer. I've only had one 243, but was able to find it with no problem. The maker of the sniffer is working on a solution and hopes to have it ready soon.

Ben, what range did you get AOS at vice a 121.5 ELT?

As for antennas...I like Joe's Diamond, but, I use a handheld beam from www.arrowantenna.com they also make a loop that works great for in close.

I never need an antenna in close - the Sniffer sans antenna works just fine. 

As you may be figuring out, there's a few ways to skin this cat.   I happened to have the Diamond already and like it for a few reasons - it's small; covers ELT, CAP, and ham frequencies (should I need to use it for tracking down a jammer one day, for example); fits into the toolbox that I use for UDF (admittedly a wide one - the antenna is about as wide as the collapsed L-Per wooden mast).  I did try a few other beams (including a 440 and 2m that I had handy) and the Diamond plain old performed better.

I'm not big on the tape measure beam either for a few reasons, mostly centered around the fact that it looks unprofessional and is too big.

As far as the Sniffer vs. L-Per goes, it really changes the way you find ELTs.    No more triangulation required, you pretty much just drive right up to it with a mag mount vertical on the roof and locate it on foot with the beam.   Much easier, faster, and ultimately cheaper for your Wing in terms of fuel use.

[BigMojo]

It wasn't the 3+ miles of a 121.5, but as I recall it was about 3/4 of a mile or so.

[DNall]

Okay, so new LPer system is 750 plus veh antennas.

What's the total cost of a Mk4 system with beam & veh antennas? Specifically, can I get two systems complete for 500-750? And can I get some links to slam it all into a power point.

Basically, I want to do a pro/con brief on the options & show a cost break down, then ask for some money from my members, as well as provide them the presentation to go ask their companies for a donation.

[JoeTomasone]

If you go with my recommended setup:

MK4: $185 + $25 Shipping + $20 Paypal charge = $230
http://users.bigpond.net.au/vk3yng/foxhunt/foxhunt.html (Note: I was quoted and paid $185, not the $190 on the page)

MAY-1000 Beam Antenna: $79.99 + $8 Shipping = $87.95 from Ham Radio Outlet
http://www.hamradio.com/

LVA-1 omnidirectional aircraft band mag mount antenna: $25.00 (shipping included)
http://www.ltronics.com/pricing.htm

Grand total: $342.95




For comparison purposes:

LL-16: $750.00

LVA-100 LL Vehicle Antennas: $170.00

Grand Total (shipping included):  $920.00
http://www.ltronics.com/pricing.htm



...So for a little more than one L-Per setup with antennas, you can have 3 MK4 setups ($1028.85).



If you go with the Arrow Antenna beam at $55.00 plus $15.00 shipping for a total of $70.00, you'll save $17.95 per MK4 setup - making the grand total $325 for one setup or $975 for three.
http://arrowantennas.com/arrowii.html

As I've stated before, I prefer the MAY-1000 even at somewhat higher cost due to its smaller size, easier setup, and increased frequency range.



** NOTE:  These prices do not include tax, since that will depend on where you live.

[_]

So that I'm clear, I am a BIG proponent of the sniffer.  I have used a sniffer paired up with a measuring tape antenna to great effect. 

The sniffer is excellent when used in support of a l-per, not in place of.  A sniffer does not have the range the l-per has.

For reference, I live along the Chesapeake Bay and in the main area I cover I have 4 airports and thousands of boats (no, I'm not exaggerating).  I've gotten a fair mix of boats and planes, 121.5 and 243.

I would not go willingly out with just a sniffer.  The range on a sniffer, even when hooked up to an antenna on the roof, is not good enough.  If you operated in an area with 2 airports and no boats that would have EPIRBS, you could get away with just a sniffer.  When I go out there is no way to accurately predict what area in particular the beacon will be.  If you were able to get an aircraft every time you went out, to narrow things down for you, it would probably be possible to get away with just a sniffer.  For me, getting an aircraft is often the exception instead of the rule.

When I go out, I want reliable equipment that can pick up the signal at long range and get me close.  I can df a beacon at close range with a l-per, not well but it can be done.  You can't long range df with a sniffer.  It's excellent for close range but sucks at longer range, meaning over 1.5 miles on a very good day.

If I had to choose one or the other I'd get the l-per.  It costs more but can do more.  The only alternative to a lper I would think of is maybe a doppler system.  The l-per and the sniffer and not equivalent pieces of equipment.  A sniffer is in the same league as a scanner, tracker, or jetstream radio.  Like those things, you can df a beacon with them but you have to make a lot of allowances for it's deficiencies.

[JoeTomasone]

The sniffer is excellent when used in support of a l-per, not in place of.  A sniffer does not have the range the l-per has.

Wow - I have to wonder how you are concluding this.  I did extensive testing of the L-Per and the Sniffer with several different antennas and the Sniffer always matched/exceeded the L-Per's performance -- on the same antenna.    I get AOS at 2-3+ miles usually with each against a training beacon with new batteries using the L-Tronics mag-mount vertical.  On the last actual ELT mission I was on, I got AOS at a measured 3.43 miles from the ELT, which was in a hangar at an airport:

For reference, I live along the Chesapeake Bay and in the main area I cover I have 4 airports and thousands of boats (no, I'm not exaggerating).  I've gotten a fair mix of boats and planes, 121.5 and 243.

Here in the Tampa area we have the same - and in fact we have an airport colocated WITH a marina - Peter O'Knight Airport.   

I would not go willingly out with just a sniffer.  The range on a sniffer, even when hooked up to an antenna on the roof, is not good enough.  If you operated in an area with 2 airports and no boats that would have EPIRBS, you could get away with just a sniffer.  When I go out there is no way to accurately predict what area in particular the beacon will be.

We have several airports in the area in all directions, not to mention marinas along Tampa Bay and the Gulf of Mexico.

A sniffer is in the same league as a scanner, tracker, or jetstream radio.  Like those things, you can df a beacon with them but you have to make a lot of allowances for it's deficiencies.

If I had to pick something to disagree with you the most on, this would be it.   A scanner:

1. Does not convert signal strength into a variable-pitch tone, allowing you to discern subtle changes in signal strength

2. Does not feature auto attenutation


I have to believe that the antenna you are trying to get AOS on is ill-suited to the task or has some other issue.    My experience with the Sniffer is the opposite of yours -- I have no need for the L-Per.