SM NCOs

[hatentx]

Gotcha so a good reason to be an officer would be to not have to submit a longer paper trail for everything you are going to do.  And if the only Job I cant do is be a commander as an NCO then if I ever become an NCO I would be a SM and a commander?  It seems like to much extra work to me to hold my NCO rank in CAP.  Hell it is annoying enough to explain why I have different badges and ribbons on my uniform.

[lordmonar]

So I was reading in another post about SM keeping their NCO rank in CAP.  I do realize that it is just a matter of paper work to do so and not many choose do this track what are the actual benefits of doing so.  I recall reading someone that you can not be a SQD Commander as an NCO and your NCO time does not count towards promotion, Such as I am a SM now and if I were to go NCO for a year or so and then decide to go to the officer track for what ever reason I would have to wait the 3 more months as a SM before getting the 2LT.  So why does our program have this and what is the purpose behind it all.

The only reason why CAP has NCO's is so that former NCO's can keep their stripes and nothing else.

NCOs have no purpose in CAP.

[ßτε]

I was just wondering if any one has a regulatory reference for an NCO not being allowed to be a commander. I can't find it.

[lordmonar]

I was just wondering if any one has a regulatory reference for an NCO not being allowed to be a commander. I can't find it.

Appointment to commander comes with an automatic promotion to 1st Lt with promotion to Capt in 1 year.

It implies that all commanders should be Capts....and we will do what we can to make your rank match up with your job.

No where does it say "NCOs can't command" but it is implied both in the promotion system and the military model our program is built on.

[ßτε]

But promotion to 1st Lt is not automatic when appointed to squadron commander. It is at the discretion of the Wing Commander.

[MIKE]

^^ Uh... it says may.

[lordmonar]

Again...the implication is that the postion of squadron Commander should be reserved for 1st Lts and above.

And what wing commander would appoint someone to the positon of commander but not also give that person the advanced promotion?  If you don't think he is good enough for the rank......you should not be putting him in the postion.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

This weekend, I taught in an SLS and CLC we had here in the Tampa Bay area. One of the students in the SLS was a retired chief, who sat beside a retired major and a retired light colonel.

The light colonel said over lunch that he doesn't know anyone who ever made chief who wasn't exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated. The chief in the SLS didn't prove the colonel wrong. I enjoyed my conversations with the chief.

Should he be an officer? By CAP standards, heck, he could at least be a major. But he earned those stripes, and I'm sure he'd rather wear them than a gimme promotion to captain. I imagine Real Military people think the promotion criteria in CAP is a cakewalk compared to their criteria, and they're insulted that a second lieutenant can skate through Level I and get butterbars (might this be why we have gray epaulets to begin with?).

Should CAP have an enlisted corps? Heck, yes. It should also scale back some of the special officer promotions -- especially for cadets becoming seniors. (How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.) If we're going to do the enlisted corps right, we start with airman stripes. Specialty tracks for enlisted would be similar, yet not as stringent, as those for officers. Maybe "enlistment" terms could be one year, while officers renew for two- or three-year hitches. Just some thoughts. I'm excited to see CAP's bloated officer ranks reined in, and I hope that study group does a bang-up job.

[hatentx]

Well heck yeah the officer promotion in CAP are easy, because they dont have to be difficult.  So under your proposal you would have NCO and Officer tracks, who decides who goes where?  I am active duty and yes I have earned my rank but in this organization where SM are officer more or less then I think it be easier to just follow the crowd on this one.  As far as I can tell there is no difference in Responsibility between CAP officers and NCO.  They do the same job.  I could only imagine though the Chief who earn his rank not feeling right saluting a flight officer or butter bar in CAP.  I have no issue with someone wishing to wear their NCO strips but as for practicality I dont see a reason.

[SarDragon]

Y'all might want to look here before making more comments about the squadron commander thing.

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

NCO Grade	NCO Grade
E-7	Second Lieutenant
E-8	First Lieutenant
E-9	Captain

Figure 4. Senior NCO Grade Equivalents

As for the actual usefulness of CAP NCOs, I'll not get involved in that. I made my choice years ago, now being a Maj, vice TSgt.

How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.

Tell that to my CC's son when he finished his degree program at UND with a pocketful of hours and ratings, and converts from FO to officer. He will be bring a lot to the organization, with considerable expense of time and money. Alos, most Spaatz recipients bring considerable knowledge with them to the SM ranks. Most that I have met were deserving of their fast track to Capt.

Lastly, there are Navy Chiefs out there who AREN't "exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated". They just worked the system to their advantage. I have two in my family, and spent 21 yrs on AD working for a multitude of Chiefs. I've got a little BTDT and institutional knowledge in that area.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Lastly, there are Navy Chiefs out there who AREN't "exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated". They just worked the system to their advantage. I have two in my family, and spent 21 yrs on AD working for a multitude of Chiefs. I've got a little BTDT and institutional knowledge in that area.

In fairness to BuckeyeDEJ I think the retired Chief in the SLS was a CMSgt (E-9)

[brasda91]

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Yes, but those accomplishments were made on active duty, not CAP.

Show me a system where the NCO's have a chain of progression and then when I see a CAP CMsgt, I'll be impressed.

[citizensoldier]

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Yes, but those accomplishments were made on active duty, not CAP.

Show me a system where the NCO's have a chain of progression and then when I see a CAP CMsgt, I'll be impressed.

Following that train of thought you should make .mil officers start over too if past rank held was not made in the CAP.

[citizensoldier]

Any SM NCO's have anything to say for why they made the choice they did?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Trung Si Ma]

1.  I'm tired of people asking me to take over a unit (2 groups and 10 squadrons in 35+ years is enough).

2.  CAP has no  PD training opportunities for me anyway (GRW in 1984, SLS, CLC, RSC, NSC, SOS, ACSC, AWC done).

3.  I'm a firm believer in positional grade, not hanging around grade.  Which is why I'm currently wearing Lt Col again as a wing IG.  When the tour is over, I will revert again.

4.  I'm [darn] proud of my service as an NCO in the US Army.

[citizensoldier]

1.  I'm tired of people asking me to take over a unit (2 groups and 10 squadrons in 35+ years is enough).

2.  CAP has no  PD training opportunities for me anyway (GRW in 1984, SLS, CLC, RSC, NSC, SOS, AWC done).

3.  I'm a firm believer in positional grade, not hanging around grade.  Which is why I'm currently wearing Lt Col again as a wing IG.  When the tour is over, I will revert again.

4.  I'm [darn] proud of my service as an NCO in the US Army.

Thanks, these are the sort of answers I am looking for.  So far it seems only current and former NCOs seem to see where we have something to offer along that track.  I still have a week or two before I submit my membership so I want as many opinions as I can get.

CS

[RiverAux]

You offer the same exact set of skills as a NCO as you would as a Lt. Col. and would have the same exact opportunities so it really comes down to what image you want to project of yourself. 

[lordmonar]

I am a newly retired USAF MSgt and I don't see the need for CAP NCOs at this time.

I have made suggestions about how a CAP NCO corps could be used....but it is more of a solution looking for a problem.

Right now CAP NCOs are just a cliqe....an exclustionary group that does not fit into CAP rank structure very well.   The CAP rank structure is already screwed up beyond belief....chucking in NCO's only makes it worse.

We talk about the problems of 1St Lt's commanding squadrons with Lt Cols in them.....imagine a squadron commanded by a SSgt with a Lt Col....or a SSgt holding a regional or national level position.

If you want to wear them.......that is fine by me.   Be proud of your NCO status.  But I don't encourage anyone to do so.

[DNall]

Should he (CMSgt) be an officer? By CAP standards, heck, he could at least be a major. But he earned those stripes, and I'm sure he'd rather wear them than a gimme promotion to captain. I imagine Real Military people think the promotion criteria in CAP is a cakewalk compared to their criteria, and they're insulted that a second lieutenant can skate through Level I and get butterbars (might this be why we have gray epaulets to begin with?).

Link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/R035_005.pdf

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

E-7 = 2LT
E-8 = 1Lt
E-9 = Capt

Should CAP have an enlisted corps? Heck, yes. It should also scale back some of the special officer promotions -- especially for cadets becoming seniors. (How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.) If we're going to do the enlisted corps right, we start with airman stripes. Specialty tracks for enlisted would be similar, yet not as stringent, as those for officers. Maybe "enlistment" terms could be one year, while officers renew for two- or three-year hitches. Just some thoughts. I'm excited to see CAP's bloated officer ranks reined in, and I hope that study group does a bang-up job.

I am a newly retired USAF MSgt and I don't see the need for CAP NCOs at this time.

I have made suggestions about how a CAP NCO corps could be used....but it is more of a solution looking for a problem.

Right now CAP NCOs are just a cliqe....an exclustionary group that does not fit into CAP rank structure very well.   The CAP rank structure is already screwed up beyond belief....chucking in NCO's only makes it worse.

We talk about the problems of 1St Lt's commanding squadrons with Lt Cols in them.....imagine a squadron commanded by a SSgt with a Lt Col....or a SSgt holding a regional or national level position.

If you want to wear them.......that is fine by me.   Be proud of your NCO status.  But I don't encourage anyone to do so.

Respectfully, that's an NCO view of what we have now. The issue is not that so much that we have need of NCOs to make the program work. It is that a whole lot of our members have no business being officers. It's confusing to everyone in & out of CAP that our grade structure is basically meaningless but still prominent. We have a massive lack of quality leadership/mgmt - I know there are many outstanding exceptions to that statement, but it's common across the org, and they almost certainly got little to none of that training through any formal CAP developmental program. We got a ton of chiefs with very few Indians. The masses are not trained to be followers first & then selected to train for leadership/mgmt roles as they qualify & prove themselves. We're trying to make all training available to all members, and we're ending up downgrading the training so much in the process that no one is up to par because of that training.

My view is that we need much higher training standards & min qualifications to enter the executive training program - which is officership. That we can then direct the right level of resources at that smaller number of committed, capable, and board selected folks. While at the same time, almost everything CAP does at the unit level is actually an enlisted job. I'm not slighting NCOs in this view. Everyone knows things actually get done because of NCOs on the ground. Right now that's what we got, but it really doesn't relate to the rank they're wearing or the position they hold. What we're missing, that military NCOs actually need to accomplish their amazing feats, is the quality planning, leadership, and oversight that officers are supposed to provide.

In other words, it's not our screwed up current NCO system, or relative lack of it, that's the problem. It's our completely useless officer system devoid of very many people capable of doing competent officer/executive work. That's the chief problem at the root of most things wrong with CAP. At least in my opinion.

[Trung Si Ma]

In other words, it's not our screwed up current NCO system, or relative lack of it, that's the problem. It's our completely useless officer system devoid of very many people capable of doing competent officer/executive work. That's the chief problem at the root of most things wrong with CAP. At least in my opinion.

Well Said Dennis.

Has anyone considered that the real reason for the NHQ push for NCOs IS the start of a long range plan to address this very factor?

Some of us "old guys" remember when there was a senior member enlisted program.  ECI-7C (the precursor to ECI 13) was the requirement to become an officer.  Even if you were a former cadet officer, you had to do ECI-7C to be considered for a commission.  We also had to have an organizational "slot" for you to get promoted.  I did the mission related promotion to Capt when I turned 21, but there had to be an open MAJ slot within the unit, the wing, the region, and nationally for me to get promoted.  That was actually pretty easy because there were not that many field grades in the wing that I was in at the time.  We were worried because one of the wings in the region had a lot of field grade though.  I remember as a Squadron CC not being able to get someone promoted to MAJ because we were a cadet squadron and had no open MAJ slots.  She had to go to Group to get promoted.

I've become an advocate of acknowledging that the rank issue has gotten out of hand and changing the FO rank structure if we don't do an enlisted program.  It's ours, we can pretty much do what we want with it.

Steal the Army's WO insignia (blue squares instead of black) and redesignate it FO, TFO, SFO, CFO, MFO tie it to PD and have NHQ advance you to the appropriate FO grade as you complete each PD level.  Seniors are addressed as Mr, Ms as appropriate.

Go to positional grade of Squadron CC is a Capt, Group CC is a MAJ and their deputies one grade lower (1st Lt / Capt).  Wing CV, CS, SE, IG, and all ICs wear Lt Col.  Corporate officers stay the same.  Move out of the position, revert to your permanent FO grade.  National automatically appoints you to the appropriate grade when your duty position changes.

Retire at the highest grade held.

This eliminates all promotion paperwork.  If you don't want to promote me to FO3, don't approve my Loening.

There are still some problems with it if we want to continue to use USAF PD courses instead of RSC/NSC, but running all applications through NHQ and having them verify eligibility could be a work around.