SM NCOs

[hatentx]

So I was reading in another post about SM keeping their NCO rank in CAP.  I do realize that it is just a matter of paper work to do so and not many choose do this track what are the actual benefits of doing so.  I recall reading someone that you can not be a SQD Commander as an NCO and your NCO time does not count towards promotion, Such as I am a SM now and if I were to go NCO for a year or so and then decide to go to the officer track for what ever reason I would have to wait the 3 more months as a SM before getting the 2LT.  So why does our program have this and what is the purpose behind it all.

[RiverAux]

The upper levels of CAP are looking hard at re-designing the CAP NCO program.  Right now there is absolutely no stated purpose for senior member NCOs.  That may change, or it may not.  If you're thinking of becoming a CAP officer later I can't see any reason to spend any time as an NCO as things stand now.

[hatentx]

Sure I understand that if I planned on changing at one point in time, but what if you need a SQD Commander and the only person available is the CAP Staff SGT or what ever.  The Commander must be a Officer so the NCO would then have to change.  I am interested in what role NCO would play in CAP on the big side of things.  If the keep it only prior service as NCO then there really isnt much of a reason to make a actual place for them as I am sure there are only a handful of NCO's running around.  Unless you opened up the NCO track to any SM then I can see that opening up a huge can of worms. 

[PHall]

I did the NCO thing for a couple of years, went back to the officer grade so I wouldn't have to put up with the BS.

I was the Deputy Commander for Cadets at a Composite Squadron and there were actually some folks who said that I could not hold that position as a NCO.

Of course they could not show me anything in the regs to back up their position.

If you do the NCO thing be prepared to have to explain yourself, alot....

[hatentx]

What sorta BS did you really have to deal with.  As far as I can tell CAP really isnt worried about the grade you hold.  It actually does nothing for you other than you PD and make you feel more important.  It isnt going to change my pay to be an officer in CAP.  I dont think it was anything I was truly considering just for the fact of making my life simple.  But I am just interested in knowing what there is.  In the Regs I could find little to no references to NCO in CAP other than the cadet program.

[RiverAux]

How does being a CAP NCO make anything more simple?  You're still going to be expected to be as active as anyone else.  You're going to be expected to take on staff officer jobs just like anyone else.  The only thing simple about it is that you only have to sew rank on your uniform once since you can't promote as an NCO as things stand now, though you are under no obligation to promote as an officer either.  You could sew the CAP cutouts on your BDUs and stay a senior member without grade forever if you wanted. 

[hatentx]

Yeah I get that but along the lines of finding CAP NCO shoulder boards... and that sorta logistical stuff. 

[RiverAux]

In that area you're better off being an officer as all that stuff is going to be easily available.

Personally, I think that that there is an element of vanity or a desire to be different among those who choose to be CAP NCOs. 

[hatentx]

I guess I was kinda thinking the same thing.  That is why I was wondering why exactly they are there and what is the advantage/disadvantage as well

[Trung Si Ma]

Personally, I think that that there is an element of vanity or a desire to be different among those who choose to be CAP NCOs. 

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

[AvroArrow]

Just wondering...

If they were to "edit" the SM NCO program stuff, what would they change most likely?

Obviously we can't predict and/or read National's minds, but on an estimate, do you think they'd "make it more worth while and exciting" for SMs who choose that path or just make it "worse and more of a grief" for them?

I know a SM NCO in MOWG (he's a MSgt) and he doesn't seem to be totally unhappy since he retired as that grade from the USAF in '89 and is used to be a Senior NCO. Maybe the NCO program is just for "old timers" that are retired sergeants/petty officers that don't want to be officers even in CAP?

Avro

[RiverAux]

Personally, I think that that there is an element of vanity or a desire to be different among those who choose to be CAP NCOs. 

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Thanks for proving my point.   

[Trung Si Ma]

Personally, I think that that there is an element of vanity or a desire to be different among those who choose to be CAP NCOs. 

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Thanks for proving my point.   

Don't see how I proved your point.  Pride in an actual accomplishment is not vain.

[RiverAux]

I'm not going to get too far off track here, so I'll let it go. 

[citizensoldier]

In that area you're better off being an officer as all that stuff is going to be easily available.

Personally, I think that that there is an element of vanity or a desire to be different among those who choose to be CAP NCOs. 

Vanity may be a factor as you say, but it may also be an honest assessment of who we are.  In some ways being an officer makes me feel pretentious.

[hatentx]

Ok but besided pride in your acomplishment what advantage or purpose do you serve as a CAP NCO

[citizensoldier]

Ok but besided pride in your acomplishment what advantage or purpose do you serve as a CAP NCO

I am trying to figure that out myself before I join.  I am a NCO in the Army National Guard.  I know what I do there.   I am curious how it functions CAP side.

[hatentx]

Ok but besided pride in your acomplishment what advantage or purpose do you serve as a CAP NCO

I am trying to figure that out myself before I join.  I am a NCO in the Army National Guard.  I know what I do there.   I am curious how it functions CAP side.

It was your comment in another post that got me thinking again about it.

[arajca]

The difference between what an Officer and an NCO do in CAP is...nothing. Unlike the military, there are no NCO jobs and the only jobs that require being an Officer are Commanders.

NCO's in CAP cannot promote, unless you promote in the military, or become an officer.

[Trung Si Ma]

Ok but besided pride in your acomplishment what advantage or purpose do you serve as a CAP NCO

Maybe you should turn this around and ask why you need to be an officer to function in CAP.  It is very possible to do the entire CAP program as a SM - if you get waivers for the grade requirement for RSC and NSC.  I don't know if they do those anymore, but we had a SM in my NSC class back in the early 80's.  Granted, he was a retired VADM who didn't want to be a LtCol, but he was still an SM.

Cav to ya

[hatentx]

Gotcha so a good reason to be an officer would be to not have to submit a longer paper trail for everything you are going to do.  And if the only Job I cant do is be a commander as an NCO then if I ever become an NCO I would be a SM and a commander?  It seems like to much extra work to me to hold my NCO rank in CAP.  Hell it is annoying enough to explain why I have different badges and ribbons on my uniform.

[lordmonar]

So I was reading in another post about SM keeping their NCO rank in CAP.  I do realize that it is just a matter of paper work to do so and not many choose do this track what are the actual benefits of doing so.  I recall reading someone that you can not be a SQD Commander as an NCO and your NCO time does not count towards promotion, Such as I am a SM now and if I were to go NCO for a year or so and then decide to go to the officer track for what ever reason I would have to wait the 3 more months as a SM before getting the 2LT.  So why does our program have this and what is the purpose behind it all.

The only reason why CAP has NCO's is so that former NCO's can keep their stripes and nothing else.

NCOs have no purpose in CAP.

[ßτε]

I was just wondering if any one has a regulatory reference for an NCO not being allowed to be a commander. I can't find it.

[lordmonar]

I was just wondering if any one has a regulatory reference for an NCO not being allowed to be a commander. I can't find it.

Appointment to commander comes with an automatic promotion to 1st Lt with promotion to Capt in 1 year.

It implies that all commanders should be Capts....and we will do what we can to make your rank match up with your job.

No where does it say "NCOs can't command" but it is implied both in the promotion system and the military model our program is built on.

[ßτε]

But promotion to 1st Lt is not automatic when appointed to squadron commander. It is at the discretion of the Wing Commander.

[MIKE]

^^ Uh... it says may.

[lordmonar]

Again...the implication is that the postion of squadron Commander should be reserved for 1st Lts and above.

And what wing commander would appoint someone to the positon of commander but not also give that person the advanced promotion?  If you don't think he is good enough for the rank......you should not be putting him in the postion.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

This weekend, I taught in an SLS and CLC we had here in the Tampa Bay area. One of the students in the SLS was a retired chief, who sat beside a retired major and a retired light colonel.

The light colonel said over lunch that he doesn't know anyone who ever made chief who wasn't exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated. The chief in the SLS didn't prove the colonel wrong. I enjoyed my conversations with the chief.

Should he be an officer? By CAP standards, heck, he could at least be a major. But he earned those stripes, and I'm sure he'd rather wear them than a gimme promotion to captain. I imagine Real Military people think the promotion criteria in CAP is a cakewalk compared to their criteria, and they're insulted that a second lieutenant can skate through Level I and get butterbars (might this be why we have gray epaulets to begin with?).

Should CAP have an enlisted corps? Heck, yes. It should also scale back some of the special officer promotions -- especially for cadets becoming seniors. (How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.) If we're going to do the enlisted corps right, we start with airman stripes. Specialty tracks for enlisted would be similar, yet not as stringent, as those for officers. Maybe "enlistment" terms could be one year, while officers renew for two- or three-year hitches. Just some thoughts. I'm excited to see CAP's bloated officer ranks reined in, and I hope that study group does a bang-up job.

[hatentx]

Well heck yeah the officer promotion in CAP are easy, because they dont have to be difficult.  So under your proposal you would have NCO and Officer tracks, who decides who goes where?  I am active duty and yes I have earned my rank but in this organization where SM are officer more or less then I think it be easier to just follow the crowd on this one.  As far as I can tell there is no difference in Responsibility between CAP officers and NCO.  They do the same job.  I could only imagine though the Chief who earn his rank not feeling right saluting a flight officer or butter bar in CAP.  I have no issue with someone wishing to wear their NCO strips but as for practicality I dont see a reason.

[SarDragon]

Y'all might want to look here before making more comments about the squadron commander thing.

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

NCO Grade	NCO Grade
E-7	Second Lieutenant
E-8	First Lieutenant
E-9	Captain

Figure 4. Senior NCO Grade Equivalents

As for the actual usefulness of CAP NCOs, I'll not get involved in that. I made my choice years ago, now being a Maj, vice TSgt.

How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.

Tell that to my CC's son when he finished his degree program at UND with a pocketful of hours and ratings, and converts from FO to officer. He will be bring a lot to the organization, with considerable expense of time and money. Alos, most Spaatz recipients bring considerable knowledge with them to the SM ranks. Most that I have met were deserving of their fast track to Capt.

Lastly, there are Navy Chiefs out there who AREN't "exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated". They just worked the system to their advantage. I have two in my family, and spent 21 yrs on AD working for a multitude of Chiefs. I've got a little BTDT and institutional knowledge in that area.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Lastly, there are Navy Chiefs out there who AREN't "exceptionally sharp -- very knowledgeable, focused and dedicated". They just worked the system to their advantage. I have two in my family, and spent 21 yrs on AD working for a multitude of Chiefs. I've got a little BTDT and institutional knowledge in that area.

In fairness to BuckeyeDEJ I think the retired Chief in the SLS was a CMSgt (E-9)

[brasda91]

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Yes, but those accomplishments were made on active duty, not CAP.

Show me a system where the NCO's have a chain of progression and then when I see a CAP CMsgt, I'll be impressed.

[citizensoldier]

Its called pride in what you have actually accomplished rather than what they gave you out of the grab bag just because you showed up at some one day course and paid membership fees for a couple of years.

Yes, but those accomplishments were made on active duty, not CAP.

Show me a system where the NCO's have a chain of progression and then when I see a CAP CMsgt, I'll be impressed.

Following that train of thought you should make .mil officers start over too if past rank held was not made in the CAP.

[citizensoldier]

Any SM NCO's have anything to say for why they made the choice they did?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Trung Si Ma]

1.  I'm tired of people asking me to take over a unit (2 groups and 10 squadrons in 35+ years is enough).

2.  CAP has no  PD training opportunities for me anyway (GRW in 1984, SLS, CLC, RSC, NSC, SOS, ACSC, AWC done).

3.  I'm a firm believer in positional grade, not hanging around grade.  Which is why I'm currently wearing Lt Col again as a wing IG.  When the tour is over, I will revert again.

4.  I'm [darn] proud of my service as an NCO in the US Army.

[citizensoldier]

1.  I'm tired of people asking me to take over a unit (2 groups and 10 squadrons in 35+ years is enough).

2.  CAP has no  PD training opportunities for me anyway (GRW in 1984, SLS, CLC, RSC, NSC, SOS, AWC done).

3.  I'm a firm believer in positional grade, not hanging around grade.  Which is why I'm currently wearing Lt Col again as a wing IG.  When the tour is over, I will revert again.

4.  I'm [darn] proud of my service as an NCO in the US Army.

Thanks, these are the sort of answers I am looking for.  So far it seems only current and former NCOs seem to see where we have something to offer along that track.  I still have a week or two before I submit my membership so I want as many opinions as I can get.

CS

[RiverAux]

You offer the same exact set of skills as a NCO as you would as a Lt. Col. and would have the same exact opportunities so it really comes down to what image you want to project of yourself. 

[lordmonar]

I am a newly retired USAF MSgt and I don't see the need for CAP NCOs at this time.

I have made suggestions about how a CAP NCO corps could be used....but it is more of a solution looking for a problem.

Right now CAP NCOs are just a cliqe....an exclustionary group that does not fit into CAP rank structure very well.   The CAP rank structure is already screwed up beyond belief....chucking in NCO's only makes it worse.

We talk about the problems of 1St Lt's commanding squadrons with Lt Cols in them.....imagine a squadron commanded by a SSgt with a Lt Col....or a SSgt holding a regional or national level position.

If you want to wear them.......that is fine by me.   Be proud of your NCO status.  But I don't encourage anyone to do so.

[DNall]

Should he (CMSgt) be an officer? By CAP standards, heck, he could at least be a major. But he earned those stripes, and I'm sure he'd rather wear them than a gimme promotion to captain. I imagine Real Military people think the promotion criteria in CAP is a cakewalk compared to their criteria, and they're insulted that a second lieutenant can skate through Level I and get butterbars (might this be why we have gray epaulets to begin with?).

Link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/R035_005.pdf

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve, and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

E-7 = 2LT
E-8 = 1Lt
E-9 = Capt

Should CAP have an enlisted corps? Heck, yes. It should also scale back some of the special officer promotions -- especially for cadets becoming seniors. (How many 21-year-olds should be captains? Answer: None.) If we're going to do the enlisted corps right, we start with airman stripes. Specialty tracks for enlisted would be similar, yet not as stringent, as those for officers. Maybe "enlistment" terms could be one year, while officers renew for two- or three-year hitches. Just some thoughts. I'm excited to see CAP's bloated officer ranks reined in, and I hope that study group does a bang-up job.

I am a newly retired USAF MSgt and I don't see the need for CAP NCOs at this time.

I have made suggestions about how a CAP NCO corps could be used....but it is more of a solution looking for a problem.

Right now CAP NCOs are just a cliqe....an exclustionary group that does not fit into CAP rank structure very well.   The CAP rank structure is already screwed up beyond belief....chucking in NCO's only makes it worse.

We talk about the problems of 1St Lt's commanding squadrons with Lt Cols in them.....imagine a squadron commanded by a SSgt with a Lt Col....or a SSgt holding a regional or national level position.

If you want to wear them.......that is fine by me.   Be proud of your NCO status.  But I don't encourage anyone to do so.

Respectfully, that's an NCO view of what we have now. The issue is not that so much that we have need of NCOs to make the program work. It is that a whole lot of our members have no business being officers. It's confusing to everyone in & out of CAP that our grade structure is basically meaningless but still prominent. We have a massive lack of quality leadership/mgmt - I know there are many outstanding exceptions to that statement, but it's common across the org, and they almost certainly got little to none of that training through any formal CAP developmental program. We got a ton of chiefs with very few Indians. The masses are not trained to be followers first & then selected to train for leadership/mgmt roles as they qualify & prove themselves. We're trying to make all training available to all members, and we're ending up downgrading the training so much in the process that no one is up to par because of that training.

My view is that we need much higher training standards & min qualifications to enter the executive training program - which is officership. That we can then direct the right level of resources at that smaller number of committed, capable, and board selected folks. While at the same time, almost everything CAP does at the unit level is actually an enlisted job. I'm not slighting NCOs in this view. Everyone knows things actually get done because of NCOs on the ground. Right now that's what we got, but it really doesn't relate to the rank they're wearing or the position they hold. What we're missing, that military NCOs actually need to accomplish their amazing feats, is the quality planning, leadership, and oversight that officers are supposed to provide.

In other words, it's not our screwed up current NCO system, or relative lack of it, that's the problem. It's our completely useless officer system devoid of very many people capable of doing competent officer/executive work. That's the chief problem at the root of most things wrong with CAP. At least in my opinion.

[Trung Si Ma]

In other words, it's not our screwed up current NCO system, or relative lack of it, that's the problem. It's our completely useless officer system devoid of very many people capable of doing competent officer/executive work. That's the chief problem at the root of most things wrong with CAP. At least in my opinion.

Well Said Dennis.

Has anyone considered that the real reason for the NHQ push for NCOs IS the start of a long range plan to address this very factor?

Some of us "old guys" remember when there was a senior member enlisted program.  ECI-7C (the precursor to ECI 13) was the requirement to become an officer.  Even if you were a former cadet officer, you had to do ECI-7C to be considered for a commission.  We also had to have an organizational "slot" for you to get promoted.  I did the mission related promotion to Capt when I turned 21, but there had to be an open MAJ slot within the unit, the wing, the region, and nationally for me to get promoted.  That was actually pretty easy because there were not that many field grades in the wing that I was in at the time.  We were worried because one of the wings in the region had a lot of field grade though.  I remember as a Squadron CC not being able to get someone promoted to MAJ because we were a cadet squadron and had no open MAJ slots.  She had to go to Group to get promoted.

I've become an advocate of acknowledging that the rank issue has gotten out of hand and changing the FO rank structure if we don't do an enlisted program.  It's ours, we can pretty much do what we want with it.

Steal the Army's WO insignia (blue squares instead of black) and redesignate it FO, TFO, SFO, CFO, MFO tie it to PD and have NHQ advance you to the appropriate FO grade as you complete each PD level.  Seniors are addressed as Mr, Ms as appropriate.

Go to positional grade of Squadron CC is a Capt, Group CC is a MAJ and their deputies one grade lower (1st Lt / Capt).  Wing CV, CS, SE, IG, and all ICs wear Lt Col.  Corporate officers stay the same.  Move out of the position, revert to your permanent FO grade.  National automatically appoints you to the appropriate grade when your duty position changes.

Retire at the highest grade held.

This eliminates all promotion paperwork.  If you don't want to promote me to FO3, don't approve my Loening.

There are still some problems with it if we want to continue to use USAF PD courses instead of RSC/NSC, but running all applications through NHQ and having them verify eligibility could be a work around.

[DNall]

Using a system dif than the mil standard would be confusing to outsiders (as our current FO system is). Making officer grade discretionary to position would give the appearance of correctness, but it wouldn't actually change anything. You still have all the same problems, just new labels.

What we need is actual officers and NCOs. Don't worry about the grade for a minute. We need people within the structure at each echelon that are competent to act in those roles. We don't have that now & it screws us continuously.

I have the greatest respect for skilled NCOs. As an officer I couldn't really do what they do & vice versa. You can't convert back & forth between the philosophies to fill a position for a length of time. You have to select qualified intelligent people with potential, and you have to develop them thru systematic guided training over the course of a career to fill those roles. That's equally true on both the NCO & officer sides, and the development for each is different. Creating a skilled SNCO or officer is a work of art, and each of them is a different kind of art. They have to be pursued separately, and you have to put high quality raw material in at the foundation & be increasingly selective as you move up.

That's how the military works. That's how any civilian corporation works. That's how life works. Why we're over here trying to let everyone be a LtCol if they hang around long enough & screwing our org for it I have no idea. We already give ribbons & certificates out to make people feel good about themselves. We don't need to do it with grade too.

[davedove]

^DNall, that's agreat idea and I support it, but there is still one situation it doesn't cover.  What about the individual who has been very dedicated to CAP and worked at the higher levels, earning his grade, and then moves back down in the organization?  This can happen for any number of reasons:  their real job demands more time, their family situation changes, whatever.

This can happen at any time in CAP, but doesn't happen in the military (due to up or out).  In CAP, you have this great individual, with all kinds of experience, that still wants to serve but can't at the higher levels.  Currently, he moves back to his local squadron, keeping his higher grade, and may be commanded by lower grades.

That one way that CAP is different than the military and most jobs.  We have a fluid up and down movement of people.

[citizensoldier]

I tend to agree with the sentiment about not needing an army of LTCs roaming around.  I don't need the validation of a lot of bling to tell me I do my job well or not.  While a fair number of CAP seniors are veterans, not all are.  Those who are may be able to see the advantage of a strong NCO presence.  Hopefully the NCO track will evolve again over time.  It would make the organization appeal to many of my Army associates who look at the rank structure and shake their heads.

CS

[cnitas]

^DNall, that's agreat idea and I support it, but there is still one situation it doesn't cover.  What about the individual who has been very dedicated to CAP and worked at the higher levels, earning his grade, and then moves back down in the organization?  This can happen for any number of reasons:  their real job demands more time, their family situation changes, whatever.

This can happen at any time in CAP, but doesn't happen in the military (due to up or out).  In CAP, you have this great individual, with all kinds of experience, that still wants to serve but can't at the higher levels.  Currently, he moves back to his local squadron, keeping his higher grade, and may be commanded by lower grades.

That one way that CAP is different than the military and most jobs.  We have a fluid up and down movement of people.

Instead of using the WO model, use the enlisted model to recognize PD.
If you are selected for 'Officership', you would participate in the 'new' officer PD program. 

If at a later point, you move down the ladder,  you would resign your rank and move back to the enlisted ranks at the appropriate PD level.

[davedove]

Instead of using the WO model, use the enlisted model to recognize PD.
If you are selected for 'Officership', you would participate in the 'new' officer PD program. 

If at a later point, you move down the ladder,  you would resign your rank and move back to the enlisted ranks at the appropriate PD level.

So, the enlisted grades would be similar to what we have now where grade is a measure of your PD advancement.

Officer grade would then be positional, so that you only hold the grade if you hold the position.

[MIKE]

Here we go again!  I think the original question has been answered as good as it's gonna be.